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B3N:...yeah, thought it was you but couldn't remember...wish I'd gone to one of those; I bet it was well interesting talking to a guy like that... Meho: wise words & very very true... |
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I am also an artist and I have to agree with that quivvuulum person. I am not so vehemeently against file sharing though. There are some facts: Artists record sales in "idm" have been falling since the advent of filesharing. Examples of a single idm artist album sales are on average: 30,000 for an album in 1993, to 40,000 in 1995, to 23,000 in 97, 12,000 in 98, 6000, in 99, 3000 in 2000, 1500 in 91, to 500 this year. Of course there is much more choice now (in 1993 there was only really black dog, aphex, autechre, m-ziq, derrick may, lfo, etc) but you get the point. Is this to do with file-sharing? could be, but not 100%. --- There are many many labels who offer mp3's and clips on their sites and mailing lists. (By the way.) So don't complain you can't hear an mp3 clip to decide if you like. see rephlex offering a great deal of astrobotnia, but in their case their sales are down the dumper and they are struggling. now you could say this is due to more competition and the frankly appalling selection of releases they put out between 97 and 99 (which still haunts them). But there are other reasons. When releases' sales fall below a certain amount, the distributor finds it hard to place them in stores because the label's previous releases are used as a benchmark for sales and they don't order the new (for example) warp release if the prev. one sold no copies in that shop and had to be returned. So you get the situation that idm labels aren't ordered in by shops. So now you complain - "i can't find it in shops so I have to d/l it!". And the label says "You are d/ling it so we can't get it in shops". And the artist says.."I can't finish the album because I am homeless and no-one accepts dss claimants." |
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well said, all the rest of you are immoral scumbags, who dont care for the people that make your life worth living |
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Having only just looked at this topic, I'd have to say there's an element of trolling in what quivvulum is saying... |
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I'd make more mainstream/accessible music if I just wanted to make money... Isn't trying to sell a lot of IDM just a bad business-decision? |
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music is your love IDM fans, but you hate the people behind it |
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i dont think we should pay doctors, after all they should be in medicine for altruistic reasons, not the money, GROW UP |
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If mp3s didnt exist, i can guarantee IDM artists would sell a LOT less records at the moment. It is how most people get into the scene these days, the internet is essential, otherwise a tiny fraction of IDM fans would even know about the genre |
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I am also an artist and I have to agree with that quivvuulum person. I am not so vehemeently against file sharing though. There are some facts: Artists record sales in "idm" have been falling since the advent of filesharing. Examples of a single idm artist album sales are on average: 30,000 for an album in 1993, to 40,000 in 1995, to 23,000 in 97, 12,000 in 98, 6000, in 99, 3000 in 2000, 1500 in 91, to 500 this year. Of course there is much more choice now (in 1993 there was only really black dog, aphex, autechre, m-ziq, derrick may, lfo, etc) but you get the point. Is this to do with file-sharing? could be, but not 100%. --- There are many many labels who offer mp3's and clips on their sites and mailing lists. (By the way.) So don't complain you can't hear an mp3 clip to decide if you like. see rephlex offering a great deal of astrobotnia, but in their case their sales are down the dumper and they are struggling. now you could say this is due to more competition and the frankly appalling selection of releases they put out between 97 and 99 (which still haunts them). But there are other reasons. When releases' sales fall below a certain amount, the distributor finds it hard to place them in stores because the label's previous releases are used as a benchmark for sales and they don't order the new (for example) warp release if the prev. one sold no copies in that shop and had to be returned. So you get the situation that idm labels aren't ordered in by shops. So now you complain - "i can't find it in shops so I have to d/l it!". And the label says "You are d/ling it so we can't get it in shops". And the artist says.."I can't finish the album because I am homeless and no-one accepts dss claimants." |
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show me the evidence |
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Agh, we're clearly discussing business here as opposed to music. But the bottom line is why should I pay to RDJ or quivvuulum or anyone to hear their music? Why? Why should I pay his bills just because he makes great (or average or shit) music? As the late, wise Sun Ra said: "Musicians think they are so special because of their tallent and that they are so beutiful doing what they do. And they are but everyone is beautiful at what they do, everybody is special." I mean, I do pay to people who deal with garbage, because it's a community service but, as some of you know, i work for the red cross and we daily work with VOLUNTEERS, people who offer us their work and time for NOTHING in return because they feel the need to help other people and are not expecting to be paid for this as they feel they NEED to do it. So, are musicians just community service, like garbage people, or what? |
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What are your sources for those figures? |
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there must be others we dont need to pay then; architects doctors nurses teachers where do you stop? you dont think a musician deserves to make a living wage? |
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your volunteers get food and accomodation though, many musicians are being forced into the streets |
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interesting thoughts, babydie...good to hear some figures from someone who knows... the way I see it is that the market has changed considerably, MP3s are a fact of life now so record labels (big or small) need to find a way to change as well...at the moment, they are trying hard to stay the same & carry on as they were, which as we can see, simply isn't economically possible... I haven't got a business model for you that'll work 100% but I can't help feeling that if half the energy & money spent trying to back-peddle and denouce MP3s/File Sharing was put into trying to find a new business model then maybe a way to survive could be found.... Evolve or die...it really is as simple as that... |
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quivvuulum: you obviously miss the point he was trying to make: is music a community service? Is art a community service? Or is it independent of community needs and is being made by people who have to make it, regardless of the feedback (financial and otherwise). |
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Quivvuulum: what do you mean they get accomodation and food? No they don't, not from us. And here in Yugoslavia, it's really a struggle to survive for most people out there so still having so many volunteers prooves people will do things even against better rational judgement if they feel that's right for them to do. Why can't musicians have proper jobs and still be great artists? |
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to produce good music, a musician needs to devote ALL his time to it. MP3s are forcing many musicians (yes the ones discussed often on this mb) into working outside of their music, thus the quality of their music falls, all coming back down on your ears, so PLEASE buy, otherwise the only music available will be of the MP3.com quality (ie crap) |
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because of the above reason, a good musician needs to devote ALL his time to music. would you trust a doctor who only worked part time? |
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ie professional, in the fullest sense |
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Oh, come on, this is what I am trying to say: is someone pushing a trackball so much more special then someone mixing cement? How come other musicians can work (examples as many as you can imagine) and the poor IDM crew have to sit the whole day in front of their screens. But even if it is so: OK, if they feel they HAVE to do it, that's OK with me, but does that guarantee good music? No and still if they have to do it, then it doesn't depend on me buying it or not, that's their personal choice: like Van Gogh: he sold only one painting in his life and was piss poor all the time but never wanted to give up or "sell out" as he was pursuing his vision: the only way he could. Hey, if you have to work or steal or sell drugs or whore to make your music it's OK with me, i just don't see why should I give you money to make it. It feels awkward to me. On the more economy-based level: how come so many musicians otherwise perfectly well organise their lives by having regular live appearances, and IDM crew rely solely on their record sales. Come on man, your arguments sound like those of a spoilt kid. And I don't mean to insult you by this. |
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I have worked at 2 record labels (both now bankrupt) and work at a distributor (which handles some idm (but mostly rock, indie, drum & bass and house). Now all record sales are falling across the board mainly because shops are going for stocking and supporting the lowest common denominator releases. Taking an example of the sales figures of one single artist (sort of idm/breakcore) in their 2000 release it sold 2750. Their 2001 release sold 1345, their 2002 album has sold 507 copies. And I have to go now because I need to try and sell some idm to sales reps at virgin who only want to hear about Coldplays next album |
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mmm, you are ignorant my friend, ill give you one example; cylob, a well known and respected IDM artist, earns less than 5000 euros a year |
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which all probably leads to small labels offering their stuff directly over the web to general public on pay for download basis. We are looking at that kind of future where small labels will not depend on distributors. Or am I being naive? |
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thankyou babydieonchord, someone talking sense at last |
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quivvuulum... where are u getting your facts and figures from? |
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at which pint who will need labels? After all they are merely filters on our listening tastes. |
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I don't see the point in your example of cylob being piss poor. All the time i'm saying that if these people need money, they should get a job/ steal or anything. Why should it have anything with them making music they feel they need to make? You comparison with doctors is proving you are thinking along business, not artistic lines. Music, and other art transcends political economy exactly because it's value can not be precisely measured, despite the good job capitalism has done in forcing us to think otherwise. |
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Quernstone: that's right, although they are useful filters to an extent but also suppressive. It's all a question of finding a healthy balance. |
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You are being naive. why pay for something when you can get it free in the shop across the road. It only takes one download for something to be free. There is no business model left for those wishing to sell recorded sound on physical media that won't be eroded to the point of unfeasability by the advent of affordable widespread broadband. So, music (mp3's) in the future will become the province of rich kids on their parents allowance rather than those in a tight spot with something to say and an enterprising spirit. |
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".....otherwise the only music available will be of the MP3.com quality (ie crap)" Hehe, really? |
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Why the fuck should an artist make money from it in the first place? you call that hard work? Make music in your spare time as a hobby cause you enjoy it, and go get a real fucking job. Thats how I feel about it. I have an old car sitting in the garage that i'm working on for a hobby, i'm not expecting people to pay me to take a fucking ride in it, it's my hobby. If I could make money off of it, cool, but it's nothing I expect to make money from. I will never consider "making music" a job, or that it should be your primary source of income. It happens sometimes, and more power to those people. But don't ever expect it. Thats just fuckin' LAME. |
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It is hard to think along artistic lines when you have no food in your stomach, no roof over your head and no time to be creative. |
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Hmm, narkotic just repeated my thoughts without using my pretentious language, word! |
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But should we give money to all people starving because they'd rather pursue their hobbies than work? |
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That my friend is the life of an artist! It has happened to all the great and the good ones. |
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That my friend is the life of an artist! It has happened to all the great and the good ones. |
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Nicely put.}:> |
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ya know what I don't want to hear it. If you can afford keyboards and computers to make music, you can afford food. If for some lame ass reason that you can not, go get a wanker job at mcdonalds or something ( no offense to the mcdonalds employees of this board ). This is pathetic hearing this arguement when I see mexicans standing out on my street at 5am WAITING for any kind of work they can get to live. They may be illegals, but at least they're trying and not sitting on fuckin welfare. I just can't STAND to sit here and see people argue about not making money from "making music" or playing fucking BASEBALL! HOW LAME IS THAT! ITS A HOBBY PEOPLE, figure it out. |
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I keep hearing 'no roof over there heads' 'on the streets' etc.Maybe THEY should go out and get a 'proper' job like the rest of us.It's all just a hobby.Also,Jand was correct: They are lucky we are paying so much attention.}:> |
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To follow-up Meho's last post: if we decide that artists should be paid for what they do on the basis of their social need, than they should not be subject to market laws, i.e. not only "good" artists should be able to make a living because their records sell well, all artists should be given money by the society because they need it and are unwilling to make it any other way. |
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music a hobby, you think so? To a lot of people it is the most important thing in their life (not just the artists) |
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Mate, are you listening at all? Or is my english so fucked up? Could well be the case... If it is the most important thing in your life, then you will produce it/ consume it regardless of the circumstances. Why should anyone pay to you if you'd do it anyway because it is the most important thing to you? Read babajela's last post: I agree with him. |
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quivvuulum: I respect your views,but can you put your hand on your heart and honestly say you've never D/L any tracks before? }:> |
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But they do all have jobs you fuckwits. |
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so? are we supposed to supply the difference between their actual income and their desired income? Why doesn't anyone do it for me or you, mate? Because we don't make nice music? Is that fair? |
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Hey, we did not insult you. |
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If music is "the most important thing in your life," then you should have listened to that tiny piece of advice that goes: GET YOUR PRIORITIES STRAIGHT |
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No need to be thrown on the streets then,eh? }:> |
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fuckwits?...that certainly wasn't deserved; we're only telling you like it is... Did you say you work in distribution?...hope you've got some other skills, baby... |
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