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you see saddam as a threat because that's what you were exposed to. saddam has done no more than america or britain. his weapons were supplied by the "allies" - they just don't want him to get his hands on "their" oil |
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throughout history it seems that humanity has not advanced at all.. yes, we are bigger w/ more technology, and more complex societies.. but what good has it done? if u study the social problems/issues (ie wars, politics) of 2000 years ago... then turn on CNN, do you not notice uncanny similartities? the people in charge, and the people they charge around have never changed: fools cought up in fighting over lines on a map... leaders tricking peoples into taking up arms for their own causes... making up moral justifications for a war thats all about benifiting those in charge, usually economicaly its like watching kids in a playground.. |
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I'm doing at the cold war in History at the moment, cuban missile crisis in particular. Now wot i dont get is y dont america get rid of all of their nukes? There seems to be an agreement about the nukes, its like u can only nuke 'potential-nukers'. If america were to openly remove their nuke bases, everywhere, wot do u ppl think every1 else would do? I had a really INTELLIGENT thort about how it cud all be sorted out.... but I've forgotten it (or realised that it wudn't work) but it involved america removing their nukes, and then even if they were to get nuked then they would not be able to retaliate so no1 else would get nuked.... saving lives surely. I know that sounds sick, and makes millions of lives seem expendable, but it just seemed to make sense earlier... I think i need some sleep! |
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Moral of the topic... Fuck war. :) |
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yeap fuck war! |
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Laserbreak: There is something we can do to figh Bush and Blair's war. Mass demonstrations can put pressure on governments. The US had to pull out of Vietnam because they were losing the fight against Vietcong guerillas, but also because of mass demonstrations at home. As the war continued and the bodybags were coming back home, people saw the war for what it was. The state even felt so under pressure that they shot students at Kent State University. Governments don't shoot citizens unless they feel threatened; that people no longer accept the status quo. In London we have seen demonstrations of 50,000 then 100,000. In Italy 500,000 people have demonstrated against the war. The anti-war movement is globally far more advanced than the anti-Vietnam movement. It can only grow. What is different is that the anti-capitalist movement is feeding into the anti-war movement and vice versa. People are now making the links between war and the capitalist system. Profit, exploitation and war are inextricably linked. Sorry I'll shut up now. Us3: is that a photo of the great Ray Mears? |
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Mylittlesister, I'm doing the same course |
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It is the great ray mears yes! I don't think people give him enough credit, he is THE MAN |
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i dont really like the usa. the first moonlanding was a hoax. |
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any modern warfare by the western world is linked with their greed and crazed thirst for power and oil and people-control there just isn't room for freedom any more |
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and i dont really understand why americans always give credit for themselfes in hollywood movies. for example that submarine move with bon jovi. And man...Pearl harbor. it sucks |
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yeah i got real fucking mad when the yanks took the fucking credit in that piece of shit movie U571. and mel gibson (honorary yank by now surely), with his baseless anti-english couplet of trash films, the patriot and braveheart. btw, did you know that president roosevelt knew that the japanese were planning to bomb pearl harbor, but let it happen because before that the US public didn't want to join the war and he did? |
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I saw a programme on tv about the moon landing, I think it was a hoax too. I think they wanted a publicity stunt to beat the russians too much to risk it. I mean, how else would the flag flap in space when there is no wind? |
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i didnt see the whole pearl harbor.. did they mention something about what usa did ? |
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http://www.interalpha.net/customer/farmer/subjects/conspira cies.htm |
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Yeah, that pro-usa bullshit really annoys me. What about the recent black hawk down film? I heard that another country got real pissed off cos america just sidelined their large role in somalia and turned it into a victory film....when it was an embarressing catastrophe. Shame on Ridley Scott, I am ashamed to have a sellout like that ever born in my country. |
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yeah the moon landings being a fake is a popular theory - the evidence seems to be mainly contradictory shadows and flags or something :) but apparantly man really has been on the moon, even if the first landing was fake as p diddy |
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It's not that I don't agree with you guys (I don't on certain points), but this american-bashing is a little over the top. I have been fucked and screwed by american administration more than any of you (my country has been bombed by NATO), I do hate holywood bullshit propaganda and a lot of it in this countries culture is ill, but so is with my own culture, and I hate my own leaders as bad as american political leaders. I have nothing against americans in principle, and I hate all government in principle. |
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i heard that the movie was blaming america in the end. but they were forced to cut it |
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its sick that you dont hear more about the moonlanding. why doesnt anyone bother? i meen you can yell att athetics when they cheat but what about faking a moonlandig. thats big man! |
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just cause you don't like your own leaders, don't mean america's leaders are good - they deserve to be hated, and hated they are |
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yes they are hated. and they know it. |
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Meho: you're right to make a distinction betwenn governments/states and the people of a country. Blair didn't represent me when he bombed your country and killed civilians, just as he doesn't when he bombs Afghanistan. The working class in every country are brothers and sisters. We should all unite against all of our rulers. |
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And Black Hawk Down is racist crap |
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I'm not trying to bash americans, but come on, credit where's credit's due. And I'm not a complete jingoist either, I am completely dissillusioned by the present state of Britain and after uni plan to move abroad. But when people have died in the war for missions like recovering the enigma machine, I don't want a story to portray itself as fact and almost completely miss these people's sacrifices. |
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i was watching emperor blair on tV today. he is the worst actor since ronny reagan to be a head of state... he uses the same tonal modulations when he is expressing "sincere sadness" that it's embarassing - he couldn't get a part even in a roger corman flick!! man, he just oozes insincerity! |
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have you seen "Wag the dog" see it! |
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And I wasn't naive enough to believe milosovic represented the majority of yugoslavians, it was a dictatorship, the people have little choice. |
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O couldn't believe he'll have been PM for coming up to 5 years! fuck, time flys and he's done NOTHING |
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And the people got rid of Milosevic, not NATO and their murderous bombs. They would have sooner as well had NATO kept the fuck out. |
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I never intended to see Black Hawk Down. Even Gladiator was PC supremacist crap... Ridley Scott has clearly lost it. Jonesy, I hear you, as I usually think people will understand that crimes done by Serbs in recent Balkans conflicts have nothing to do with me... And your working class slogan really sounds like straight outta Class War pages, you read that mag, don't you. But I've long ago lost any trust in working class revolutionary potential. Mind you, I live in a country that was under socialist regime for 50 years. Well, I've seen it firsthand and it didn't work. USSR was as evil as USA, only the USA was based on principles that led it to outliving their oponents: consumerism against ideological opression... |
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No mate I don't read Class War. I read Socialist Worker. The communism in Eastern Europe was nothing I, nor anyone in my tradition, supported. It was undemocratic and a total bastardisation of socialism. I do think that there is the potential for a society based on equality, freedom and democracy. It has to come from the bottom up, not from a beauracratic elite or invading army. |
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yeah i've seen wag the dog, primary colours, all the president's men (about watergate). what do you lot think about israel - apparantly, the state of israel was created after WWII to keep rockefeller happy - i doubt the palestinians had much say in the matter |
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listen to this. Like all Americans, on Tuesday, 9-11, I was shocked and horrified to watch the WTC Twin Towers attacked by hijacked planes and collapse, resulting in the deaths of perhaps up to 10, 000 innocent people. I had not been that shocked and horrified since January 16, 1991, when then President Bush attacked Baghdad, and the rest of Iraq and began killing 200, 000 people during that "war" keeps you thinking |
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Uh, shit, guys, you're too fast for this non-anglophone webmate. Anyway, just let me tell you this: Milosevic was no more a dictator than Bush is (or Blair for that matter). He won all elections during the first half of '90s, clear. And at those last elections he still managed to get over 30% of votes. He wasn't relying on power and fear alone. He brainwashed people with cheap ideologies and false promises, just like other leaders... Sadly, now he is gone, our current authorities kiss up the worst of western leaders' arses and try to convert us into good hearted consumers... I hated Milosevic's guts, but I hated these other's guys guts too. And still do. |
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Its ironic that the countries that had the communist revolutions were not the industrialised ones like marx predicted and so who knows whether its still a possible idea. Personally, I think not, but I do believe strongly in the welfare state and thats all gone to shit in Britain. |
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This includes the infamous "highway of death" in the last days of the slaughter when U.S. pilots literally shot in the back retreating Iraqi civilians and soldiers. I continue to be horrified by the sanctions on Iraq, which have resulted in the death of over 1, 000, 000 Iraqis, including over 500, 000 children, about whom former Secretary of State Madeline Allbright has stated that their deaths "are worth the cost". |
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Uh, Jonesy, I don't know what to say... Sounds great to me but I stopped believing all that stuff long ago... Socialism has a big problem with economical basis and no model I've yet seen has offered any convincing solution... |
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apparantly, the final death toll of WTC was just under 3,500, which doesn't quite make it the bloodiest day in US history... but shit, i've forgotten which day is. |
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If you haven't watched it already, see Three Kings. It is one of the most highly critical films made about america and the allies actions during the gulf war. Its a wonder it ever got past the drawing board |
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It pisses me off that Tony Blair takes so many holidays instead of running this country. |
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And what B3n says is so true, Lenin and his crew in Russia fucked it all up with their revision of Marxism. And I do believe they did it for their own benefit... It screwed up half the world, I'm afraid... Anyway, welfare state sounds like a nice idea, but I have yet to see the state more concerned with its citizens welfare than with its own survival. |
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after australia, blair is off to spain for a summit, then off to washington for a meeting with george wanker bush -- not even HE wants to stay in the country |
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Marx never predicted anything. That's a common misconception/how it is presented. I don't mean to be patronising but that is how the establishment tries to refute what he and others on the left have to offer. Something else is possible if it comes from self-organisation. There are 60 million people in Britain and if they decided enough was enough, they could gain control of the means of production. We could take control of schools, hospitals, factories, shops etc and set up democratic organisations on a grassroots level to run them for the benefit of all, not the few. The point is that it has to be organised at a grassroots level, power should never be centralised like in the USSR. |
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I think the NHS (National Health Service) was a great idea and functioned with much success for nearly half a century. There are virtually no other countries in the world with a system like it and I'd be saddened to see it go. |
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you'll notice how all these dictatorships masquerading as communist states failed - one despotic leader pretending to be one thing so he could spark a revolution with his cronies, then instilling his own crazed scheme on the country - Cuba was the only real communist state - and i don't even think that is real any more |
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I believe it was the defeat of the Revolution by counter revolutionaries and the fact that Russia came under attack from various armies that a beauracracy emerged that led to Stalinism, the Gulags and great state repression. For me the problem didn't start with Lenin, but Stalin. Trotsky argued against the regime and was murdered by Stalin. I think Trotsky has alot to tell us about the failure of the Russian Revolution and the potential for a new society |
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Sorry, I shouldn't have really said 'predicted'. What was in actual fact true was that he and Engels brought together their theories from looking at the textile industry in the north of Britain which was completely different to russia which at that time was still mainly peasant farming. There was no comparison but lenin still tried to apply it. |
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Britain and America are as bad as each other! (The governments, not the people) :) |
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Oh yeah, for sure jonesy. Stalinism is completely different to leninism, that is why china and the ussr never saw eye to eye. Communist china's ideologies were much more based on leninism. Lenin didn't even like stalin |
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