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 Now online (2)big dariusgriffin ...and 391 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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Fuck the government. I can hear Zach De La Rocha now.... :) |
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Jonesy: no, no, no, as I recall (and we had a subject in school called Marxism) Marx and Engels were thinking that it's only natural that the leading/ most developed industrial countries take this one step further into socialism (and eventually communism). I guess it also denotes that the mindset of the working class in these countries would be on a higher level than it is in underdeveloped countries. And 20th century has proven this to be right I think. Your Idea of a peaceful revolution/ taking control sounds nice, I agree. But you have to change the mentality of 60 million people used not to be responsible for their and others lives. Is this feasable? Can people change so radically? Through how many generations. Capitalism has always worked on making them so obsessed with (re)production that real life never had the chance to be thought about (and what is real life someone might ask). The problem is that most "radical" ideologies and theories still never question this issue of compulsive reproduction... Thus, capital always wins. Have you read Baudrillard's "Symbolic interchange and death"? (my translation is probably a bit clumsy). It expands on this problem. |
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and its just a shame he got an ice pick in the back of the head! |
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"whatever happened to leon trotsky? he got an icepick that made his ears burn....WHATEVER HAPPENED TO OUR HEROES" |
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jonesy, you...you LEFT IDEALIST! I'd like to think of myself as more of a realist. =) |
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Got this emailed to me the other day and thought Id share it with you all: While visiting England, George Bush is invited to tea with the Queen. He asks her what her leadership philosophy is. She says that it is to surround herself with intelligent people. He asks how she knows if they're intelligent. "I do so by asking them the right questions," says the Queen. "Allow me to demonstrate." She phones Tony Blair and says, "Mr. Prime Minister. Please answer this question: Your mother has a child, and your father has a child, and this child is not your brother or sister. Who is it?" Tony Blair responds, "It's me, ma'am." "Correct. Thank you and good-bye, sir," says the Queen. She hangs up and says, "Did you get that, Mr. Bush?" "Yes ma'am. Thanks a lot. I'll definitely be using that!" Upon returning to Washington, he decides he'd better put the Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to the test. He summons Jesse Helms to the White House and says, "Senator Helms, I wonder if you can answer a question for me." "Why, of course, sir. What's on your mind?" "Uhh, your mother has a child, and your father has a child, and this child is not your brother or your sister. Who is it?" Helms hems and haws and finally asks, "Can I think about it and get back to you?" Bush agrees, and Helms leaves. Helms immediately calls a meeting of other senior Republican senators, and they puzzle over the question for several hours, but nobody can come up with an answer. Finally, in desperation, Helms calls Colin Powell at the State Department and explains his problem. "Now lookee here, son, your mother has a child, and your father has a child, and this child is not your brother or your sister. Who is it?" Powell answers immediately, "It's me, of course, you dumb cracker." Much relieved, Helms rushes back to the White House and exclaims, "I know the answer, sir! I know who it is! It's Colin Powell!" And Bush replies in disgust, "Wrong, |
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China took its ideology from Mao, no? I think the most important thing to remember is that Lenin and Trotsky always saw the working class as a force for change, and the only democratic one. China, Cuba, north Korea, Eastern Europe. None of these countries was transformed by the working class. Hence the dictatorships that arose. Meho: I've never really read Baudrillard. I have never given postmodernism any time as its just an intellectual trend, an excuse to do nothing. |
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...its Tony Blair! (Damn, it got cut down. Sorry.) |
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Stalin was evil for systematically killing people, OK. But Lenin was evil for killing without a fixed system (random, on case-to-case basis, try and Read a book called WE by a Russian whose name I surprisingly can't remember, written during '20s, it explains, albeit in a metaphorical way how it was living in Lenin's USSR), and for trying to fit a society into a system it was not ready for. Russia practically had no working class prior to the revolution, they were not a predominantly industrial country etc. He was evil for trying to bend the whole nation to his own romantic dream. Stalin was just someone to take advantage of an evil system established by Lenin. |
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Yeah, but moa based his and china's ideologies on leninism |
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A distortion of Lenin's writings. Whether or not the Bolsheviks were right to fight for revolution could be argued about forever. The point is in the west today the working class is huge. The potential is there |
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Shit, my reply was erased... Anyway, here I go again: Jonesy: yes, p-modernism is a bit of a trend and for some it surely is an excuse to sit and theoricise and do nothing, but this does not extend to Baudrillard (or Derrida for that matter). In fact, his is possibly the most revolutionary stuff I've read (including Nietzche AND Stirner) only not in that romantic kind of way we're used to by reading Bakunin and his friends... |
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jonesy, the working class arguably doesn't even exist anymore, we in my opinion, *do* live in a post modern society. consumerism rules king |
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The Gulf War never happened?! |
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the working class and middle classes are too intermixed now, especially in britain with its becoming so deindustrialised. anything less is just an underclass |
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If you work you're working class. What car you drive, where you shop, what you wear etc is irrelevant. Its whether or not you have to work to pay for your mortgage, whether you're exploited and make someone else rich |
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Jesus, Jonesy, this is so fucking typical. Have you actually read the fucking article? If you have and still think the same way, well, I'm not going to argue with you, we're both entitled to our opinions. Working class would probably structure their new society on same old basis (capital flow, reproduction, the same old political economy lines), only trying to somehow humanise the whole thing. And capital will win again. Revolution has to destroy these basic concepts, to bring about a whole new set of ideas (not ideologies) to be considered "real", and Im not talking just politics here. At least you've read Orwell's "Animal Farm" |
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No way, Britain is now made up of white collars. You are saying that even a man who is an exec and gets huge bonuses but still has to report to a higher power is working class? its completely changed, its gone |
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Animal Farm? That's a porno isn't it? Just because technology has advanced rapidly the basic relationship between cpaital and labour, and its inherent contradiction, still remains. I still have to work for someone else, in a sevice industry, still get paid a shit wage and still have no ohter joice. My health service and transport are third world, schools are underinvested in, my governemt murders civilians around the world to keep arms manufactureres in vast profits and bankrolling my government... This ain't the Matrix man. |
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I'm a white collar worker but I'm as working class as a labourer. I probably get paid about the same and my freedoms are as limited despite the fact that I've got a degree. White collar work has become automated. Call centres are the new factories and they are growing. |
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That was a slag or what? |
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what do you work as? |
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Well we'll just have to agree to disagree =) |
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I FUCKING HATE WAR I FUCKING HATE PEOPLE Oh yeah, I remember Animal Farm... the whole animals representing different sects of society or something. Strange stuff. |
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NO IT WASN'T A SLAG MATE - JUST BEING A PRAT. I work as an administrative assistant in a college. I'm on £11,888 while the vice principle is on a handsome £90,000. |
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The whole point of Animal Farm was to show that "revolutions" that don't actually change basic issues in a consistent manner are bound to devolve into what they fought in the first place. And capitalism has such a simple set of groundrules that most people that consider themselves anti-capitalist, actually subscribe to and think of them as "natural laws". Baudrillard was good at analysing this. |
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Chill out Jonesy, I was only kidding, we're brothers in arms after all... The fact that you seem to be pissed with the different income rates between you two guys just confirms my argumentation. You are just talking about the surface features, mate, and I don't mean to disrespect you in any manner... |
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None taken comrade. What do you mean by surface features though? I never got my head around postmodernism. |
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Jonesy: Well, the difference between yours and somebody elses income rate sounds like a big issue watched from the Marxist perspective, but seen from up above: no difference in its essence: we are all prostitutes being fucked for the money. The amounts don't matter: the system still owns us, we all sell our bodies to it because we play the "work and get paid and spend" game, because we are used to thinking this is the natural game of life. To surpass this set of values, to understand "political economy" as no more than a convention is a step made towards understanding what revolution is about. |
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Uh, I'll be leaving now, dudes, as I have to go home. See you tomorrow, then? |
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see ya later meho, nice chatting |
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""work and get paid and spend" game" I play the "Slacking student, gets paid and spend on beer game". Too bad you can't build a society on that... (Okay, I've actually planned to finish my courses and take an exam ;) ) |
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Cheers Meho Nice talking. Speak soon I hope. I'll take a look at Baudrillard, though I can't promise I'll understand it. |
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isn't that what uni is about? |
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No Ray, its about learning and getting a job that pays less than twelve grand a year when you finish, like me. |
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what did you do a degree in? I'd just skip the country and find a better one. oh, the innocence! |
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bush is coming here in two weeks....and blair, and the canadian president..and other 40 presidents..........maybe i will kill them all |
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I did a degree in Sociology. Maybe abroad is a good option. I'm thinking the US ha,ha. Raskolnikov: may the force be with you |
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I'm thinking about a degree in history/sociology (well, I've had offers), any ideas? |
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What do people think about Israel? |
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why are there problems in the middle west?? cos there is were the petrol is> where the money is> and occidental countries (leaded by the states) wont let those countries decide on their own petrol you thought it was a religion problem??? I am sure it is a money problem and if it is only about money... we could all be some more generous as we have much more money than those poor countries |
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I meant middle east |
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Nacmat: you surely mean middle east? And you're right about the money being at the root of wars. But how exactly do you imagine west has become richer than others? |
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Meho; what does Baudrillard say about war? Was that comment about the Gulf war serious or just a polemic? |
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whay cant we all just live together in peace and harmony? |
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ha, that'll be wishful thinking. little things like this here place are good because loads of peeps from different backgrounds/countries and cultures all 'get on' (loose term, as this is the internet) because of one similar interest. but the world don't work like that, it's just screwed by wankers like bush look at the news now...he's cutting america from the rest of the world by forcing a trade war. this doesn't help uniting the place |
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Jonesy: I can't seriously start to explain such a complicated topic here, you'll just have to search for the book (it might as well be somewhere on the Net, look for it). But it does give you a totally different perspective. I remeber, back in '99 when NATO was having their way with my country, I was sitting there, watching american movies on TV and thinking just how right Baudrillard was. |
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You're placing culture as the central feature of society. Its not. What was the significance of you watching American films while your country was being bombed by NATO? |
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You lost me now, mate, what is society if not its culture? How do you tell it from another society? We were supposed to be opposing NATO and USA but still subscribed to very same consumer-culture codes. We effectively supported NATO by accepting judeo/christian dualism of good and evil and the whole value system it implies and the whole capitalism ideology built on these things. The new Yugoslav authorities are even more into this. We're all blending into one empty consumer culture of eternal reproduction. |
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See that's it - society should be defined by the way it produces things, not its culture or patterns of consumption. What marks our society out from previous societies, let's say 18th century Britain/Germany is changes in production. These in turn bring changes in culture. You put the cart before the horse. |
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