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If there isn't God, then where did we all come from? If there is a God, why are we here? It takes just as much faith to believe that there isn't a God as it does to believe that there is one. IF you can scoff at me for believing that there is a God, then I can sure as heck do the same to you for believing that there isn't. We obviously can't prove to each other what does and doesn't exsist based on logic. I know though, that to believe in God, I don't have to "turn off all wisdom and logic" and become some blubbering idiot. And I also know that none of us are going to change each others minds with this discussion over the internet. In a sense, we're only strengthening the beliefs of our opponents. By forcing them to argue their points, they become more grounded in the 'proof' that they have. So the discussion just gets more and more pointless. BAh. that was crap. |
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By the way, I've never gotten that uncomfortable silence when asking God why He is there. More like a million reasons come flooding into my mind. If you have gotten the uncomfortable silence then maybe.... no, I'm not going to go there. |
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So, tell me just a few of the reasons that God exists. |
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If there isn't God, then where did we all come from? I would advise for a big cup of "we are trying to figure it out." So no, not believing in a God it takes no faith. All you need is to admit your own ignorance, and that we don`t have an explanation for everything yet... |
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Jupitah, i believe that our misunderstanding comes from two different conceptions of God... Anyway, when you talk about the mystical experience, do you refer to a mental experience similar to awe, or something more "real" that influences even the senses? |
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jabizzy, very nicely put. that is majorly what i think too. |
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jabizzy, very nicely put. that is majorly what i think too. What about my rebuttal? |
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there is a post of mine in this thread that says: it would probably be better for god if we did not acknowledge his existence so that is basically an answer to your rebuttal. ignorance is always a bliss. |
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"so that is basically an answer to your rebuttal. ignorance is always a bliss. " How is it so? I'm not arguing that ignorance is better...I'm just arguing that we don`t have an answer right now, and we don`t need to make one up... Saying that god created us, without backing it up in anyway is no different than saying that we popped out of the blue or that a pink rabit exploded creating the universe... |
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true, true. but in some way i feel that god exists. i can't back this up in any way. it would not be faith if i could. |
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we do have different conceptions of god, but all conceptions of god at some point took root in this abstract experience. it's the experience that the shaman undergoes, and all relgions when examined can be shown to have taken root in the folk religions of which the shaman was a key component. not one indigenous culture is known to be without some shamanic aspect. it is our heritage. the shaman is the master of ecstasy. the experience i speak of is very sensual. |
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"true, true. but in some way i feel that god exists. i can't back this up in any way. it would not be faith if i could. " Feelings are not really a reliable source of knoweledge... |
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Jupitah: if this "shamanic experience" is shown to be reproductible through stimulations in the brain, are you still going to believe that it is divine in some way? |
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not but we are talking about god here. if he would be scientifically proven he would cease to exist. |
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and realize that shamanism is an inseperable part of humanity. art is a part of shamanism. musicians and artists don't usually realize this, but they are the human's natural tendancy towards shamanism. that is why some people become ecstatic over music. the rave scene came about through people's need for the shamanic experience, ecstatic trance through music and dance. |
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what do you mean? why does brain stimulation differ from musical and dance stimulation? it's in our dna, this experience. it's natural. of course it's part of our nueral make up. |
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human activity and science are not somehow separate from nature and divinity. |
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"not but we are talking about god here. if he would be scientifically proven he would cease to exist. " Why? |
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I mean if we menage to stimulate such shamanic experiences in laboratories to cause them at will are they still going to be divine? I'm sorry but I really don`t see anything "magical" or special in this experiences... Except the feeling, what is so mystcal about this? |
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there are many unexplained things in (my) life which i consider related to god or the supernatural or whatever you want to call it. if all this suddenly became as 'real' ad 'solid' as my cat it would lose it's magic. at least i need something unexplained to rely on sometimes. so if someone would come and tell me the scientific base of many of my very personal matters i'd probably freak totally. sorry if my opinion if somehow wrong. that is how i feel and i hardly ever really think - i consider myself as a feeling person. |
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"if all this suddenly became as 'real' ad 'solid' as my cat it would lose it's magic. " But this doesn`t explain why god would cease to exist... It only explain why it would lose it's mysterious aura... <--- also wonders why nothing mysterious ever happened to him... |
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Everyone got their panties in a twist in this thread, eh? ;*) I am talking about everyone when I say this. |
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god might exist |
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but losing the aura would mean the end of his existence to me |
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neeta what you are saying makes no sense. You are saying that if we could prove God exists, then he woudn't exist. but as long as we are unsure then we know he exists. this doesn't make sense to me. |
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it makes sense to me. i'm the only one who even should understand. i'm just trying to point out that god exists to everyone in a completetly different and personal way. i am sure he exist, because i am feeling so. but if his existence was proven i would lose the feeling and god would lose his meaning -> he would not exist to me anymore. sorry if i said it unclearly. |
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it's not unclear...just illogical... |
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god might exist I agree with that... |
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Oh alright, there's a God. *prays* |
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neeta: so you feel fine believing in God when you don't know, but if it is proven he exists you would get scared and become atheist? That sounds wierd. I like your alien picture though. Is that from Commander Keen 4 or what? |
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i'm not sure what you're point is. what is special to somebody is comepletely subjective. and where does magic come into this? |
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i dont like where this thread is going. i would never interrogate my religious freinds like this. show some respect. |
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I like the Nietzschean concept of warrior-friends who challenge one another. "In you friend you should possess your best enemy. Your heart should feel closest to him when you oppose him." The friends I've argued and struggled with have been the ones who've helped me grow the most. |
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is there any particular part of what i said you disagree with or don't understand? it seems as if i'm not really communicating. Jupitah, sorry I didn't reply earlier. I don't think we're necessarily disagreeing; I think we're on the same page here, just in different paragraphs. :-) |
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No one is forcing people to reply, or to read. The thread is about God's existence, and so anyone that reads it should be prepared to face the consequences. I understand (to a certain extent) what Neeta is saying. That God, or these supernatural things that help her through life, do so BECAUSE of there supernatural nature. The fact that they are unknown/unknowable is the reason that you can turn to them/Him with any and all of your trials, problems, acheivements... whatever. If the 'real' God turned out to live on Alpha Centuri, smoke bongs, and smite people down all day, I could see many people walking away from religion. Did that make sense? |
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no consequence personally. just looks to me like some of the folks on here are close to doing their own heads in. i dont think that people deserve to be criticised over their faith, ill say that again. |
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yeah there been plenty of circles on this thread... tire me out |
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People should be open to questioning of their faith... shouldn't they? Particularly those that post in a thread such as this. Everyone should question their faith... probably everyday... otherwise it is blind faith. Which strikes me as foolish. |
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no i dont think so i used to, but i dont anymore. who are you or i to question such things? im not religious, but i admire those that are in honest pursuit of spirituality. |
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a manmade concept of manmade concepts is a manmade concept of a manmade concept |
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I like marmalade. |
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a marmalade cream of marmalade dreams is a marmalade beam of a marmalade.....shit |
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you shoud have kept going, that was good. it could end with underwear seams... or something. |
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I like to think that *something* did create us, but not some guy by the name of God. Definately a force of some kind. Ah either way I'm good. |
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It was the combined power of luke and vader. |
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it was sperm and eggs. |
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it was green eggs and ham sam i am |
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God doesn't exist Yes I do. :EOF: |
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:EOF: That's the sound god makes when he walks into the corner of a table then he says: ow my nads |
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"there is no solid boundary between you and other, but rather a continuum. this is often felt as not just you identifying with the universal body, but the universal body coming to you." Wow! Beautifully put! And kind of how I think...The universe is conscious of it's own existence.. We are the universe, we are it's fabric. The first moment of this awakening is unlikely to have stemmed from a human mind though.. We just (to the best of my knowledge) haven't been around long enough... In Einstein's words: "A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." The lack any real separation is important because it allows us to look at what people have being calling the (inner word) from a different perspective, firstly the mind is obviously fallible, so delusion and error are inherent universal features, so belief plus the lack of separation is not a logical stepping stone to god, simply an insight into reality, just like "the sky is blue".. Is an accurate observation.. When the universe is viewed as a whole it can't by definition of "point" have any need to exist, because it needs to refer to something else to acquire it, and anything else is quite clearly part of the universe (or mutiverse). This includes God, as existence in any form is a part of the multiverse.. So god cannot give the universe (when viewed as a whole) any need to exist.. Certainly within the universe he could.. But it's quite shocking to me that there is any perspective that can be taken which results in a pointless universe. I also think i |
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