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 Now online (1)DADONCK ...and 288 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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Yeah I've seen some actually! Brain scans on people performing transendental meditation, and also some on experienced LSD users - It seems to depress some region of the brain that creates this idea of the "ego" - It does seem like our consiousness may be a universal element of the universe, which I can only call a God - It may even be the fundamental of our reality, or it may be that it evolved out of energy... either way, I see science, space/time, energy, etc... and spirituality as two sides of the same coin. |
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Well, I understand enlightenment on a very superficial level. (essentially, anyone who hasn't experienced enlightenment can't understand it any more than superficially) I know that the "self" dissolves into more of a continuum of energy between the monk and his/her environment. Part of enlightenment (truth), is losing the "self" and the elimnation of boundries between the physical human body / mind and its surroundings. Similarly, enlightenment involves the destruction of the intellect. We tend to percieve things in a dualistic nature (thanks to the intellect). Hot cannot exist without cold, good cannot exist without evil, light without dark etc. Dualism is destroyed upon enligtenment, and only a void of non-opposites remains. Thirdly, enligtenment brings intense focus on the present. The past and the future are illusions - they aren't real. A mind that exists in the future or past is not experiencing true reality. Part of not adapting to the "gong rings" could be attributed to intense focus on the present time - the only true reality. It's incredible how many of us can work ourselves up through regert of the past, and fear of the future, though neither are actually real in ANY sense. Enlightenment is something that very few achieve. It is characterized by intense physical sensations of ice cold sweat and a surge of electrical energy. It occurs all at once, or not at all. According to many Buddhists, some people spend many lifetimes working towards achieving enlightenment. The funny thing is, enlightenement is apparently IMPOSSIBLE to achieve when you are TRYING. Historically, many monks became enlightenened while being struck by their master. |
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and then you die from catharsis ? |
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Well, they would probably tell you that you don't die at all ;). |
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J Swift, you do an excellent job of speaking for me. From now on, you do the talking and I'll just say "Ya, what he said!". |
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Many people who meditate seriously begin to lose grasp of the self. Some people report actually moving away from their body, as though they were having an out-of-body experience. |
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only the enlightened can know for sure that elingtenment actually exists. And even then the enlightened can never be sure that their enlightenment is not just sub-concious self induced delusion. |
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A butt-load of scientific equipment could prove otherwise. Of the studies that I have read, control mechanisms were included in the experiement to ensure that the monks weren't "faking". Unless those monks could control electrical skin conductance and heart rate with a seconds notice, its really hard to talk about delusions. |
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but even so, how can we be certain that things like control of electrical skin conductance and heart rate are signs of enlightenment? unless the actual definition of enlightenment is merely the ability to control these things, then they might just be a product of meditation. I'm not saying enlightenment doesn't exist. i'm merely pointing out something that you said earlier. you said, "essentially, anyone who hasn't experienced enlightenment can't understand it any more than superficially." you are correct. the only way to truely understand enlightenment is to experience it yourself. i'm just illustrating that even when you experience it, how can you be sure you haven't imagined it? and then, how can I be sure you aren't mistaken? If i tell you i had a dream two nights ago that i was having coffee with mike tyson and admiring his new tatoo, how do you know that i'm telling the truth? a scientist recording my brain waves could discern that i did infact dream, but there is no way to prove that the content of the dream was spending an afternoon with mike Tyson. |
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So their physiology and mental states are different from "normal" individuals, but not necessarily idicative of enlightenment? What if enlightenment is a meditative state? What if it is unconcious delusion? What kind of process would have to occur to permanently change body physiology and mental patterns? Similarly, there is no way to determine if your perception of the colour green is the same as my perception. If Buddha was lying about this all along, I'll be really upset. :) |
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Sure, they have reached a state of enlightenment by changing the way they think, the way their brain functions. I just don't think that has anything to do with some mystical, spiritual mumbo jumbo. |
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Yeah, from what I understand enlightenment is more a depression of certain parts of the brain rather than stimulation... One interesting form of meditation involves staring at a simple clay pot for hours on end over a long period, obviously controlling breathing and focusing on nothing other than the pot - It's more of an instant Zen like experience that many people end up achieviing - You'll suddenly see the pot for what it truely is, rather than being filtered by layer upon layer of conditioned rationalising... I've had this experience on LSD before, seeing the sun/moon can really warp you if you're not ready for it! Your brain isn't really designed to percieve things on that scale, so you're over rationalising as soon as you look in the sky normally... I can sort of always relate to that state of mind these days (it's much better to achieve through meditation though! my perspective could still end up sending me mad), but I feel I am aware of God all the time now - It is odd, but I am really the happiest person I know these days - I haven't even felt a hint of sadness/depression in over three years, not for a second.. I may just be massively chemically imbalanced though! hehe |
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Huxley wrote about similar experiences in Doors of Perception when he took hallucinogens for the first time... It makes mind much more able to deal with concepts such as God - In fact, I honestly cannot find an ounce of doubt in my mind these days... |
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when I'm on hallucinogens, i feel the complete lack of anything behind reality |
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The difference however is the permanence of enlightenment and the cataclysm of the human mind in an instant versus a fleeting moment of inner realization. I can't argue with you mapatazee, but I'm sure an enlightened one will tell you something quite different. Zen masters neither deny nor affirm the existence of God (although they speak as though they know the truth but are unwilling to divulge) Interestingly enough, upon enlightenment, the monk has always been known to destroy all the "buddhist" artifacts that they once possessed. I think we're taking this transformation too lightly. If you read into enlightenment beyond the depths of a few brain-scans, you'll be amazed at what you find. |
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Those who take hallucinogenics can rarely recall the details of their experience. Most LSD users claim to have incredible visions of reality and the universe but after the trip is over, can't recall what it was exactly. I find this very artificial and temporary compared to the permanence and genuine nature of true enlightenment. |
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Yeah LSD is certainly the wrong way to go about it - It's been shown to do physically very similar thing to transendental meditation, but it's like an instant hit, which is dangerous, as the mind needs to be calm and placid to deal with the realities... I do actually remember almost every psychedelic experience I've had vividly, and they reinforce my spirituality - you can't beat experiencing things first hand - But I've known people who've gone mad just realising what the sun is and shit, sometimes wierder stuff than that... I wish I had come at this from a less sketchy angle as drug use, but I've sort of ended up at the same place I guess.. |
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that is exactly what i mean. i guess what is needed is a more concrete definition of enlightenment. i feel enlightened in that i believe i have a great understanding of my place in the universe and i have a life philosophy that affords me a chance to fully appreciate my place. however, these things do not manifest themselves as electric epidermal phenomena. |
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Enlightenment is technically defined as the final end of suffering and desire. It is characterized by a sudden energetic transformation, cold sweats, and electrical surges (as if you were being struck by lightening). It goes hand in hand with the loss of ego or "self" and the elimination of dualistic thinking. It is conidered the true state of being. |
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hey hey--- I experienced that... that was fucking scary. It was when I realized something [big]... it really changed me. I got scared of things. I was outside and it was dark. It was autmun. |
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you just defined death. |
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oh I'm not saying I'm enlightened. But it was a similar experience (but -smaller- of course). |
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*knocks on the door* uhm...excuse me, i know it's pretty much off-topic and has nothing to do with enlightenment (though i may be wrong), but this is what i'd like to say: evolume, your new avatar is AMAZING! one of the best i've seen on the board. no kidding. |
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when you take a shit, it is teaming with bacteria. your shit contains, perhaps, more bacteria and parasites and various microbes than there are stars in the sky. these entities are not concious of your existence. in fact, they cannot even conceive of your nature. and you, in turn probably cannot fathom their existence or if you can, i would gather that you don't care anyway (unless you are one of those perverts that saves all their shits in jars). If there is a god or higher power, i would venture a guess that its relationship to us is of a similar nature. we are just self-aware microbes eating God's enormous light-speed expanding shit which is the universe. |
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aww, thanks. i've been getting into ms paint. if you turn it to a jpeg it looks like crayon sometimes. |
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Key_Secret.....are you referring to an epiphany? I've had them before too - they're like little mini-enlightenments. |
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evolume, that was really really deep. I think your shit example just made me atheist. ;) |
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evolume, that was really really deep. I think your shit example just made me atheist. ;) |
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sweet, i'm like the opposite of benny hinn |
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God's shit. I like that. |
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plus, should there be a 'god' the we apparently have the right to choose. I choose nowt, as this 'god/God' ain't done shite toward this mankind he supposedly loves. the why i figure, religion=war therefore religion shouldn't exitst as it is the first 'ist' mankind has had, and has been trouble ever since. go figure - bush justifies the slaughter of Iraq on religion... |
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ehm, that was rather confusing |
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God gave man freewill. We have the capacity to heal and to harm. I'd say about 99.9% of the world's suffering originates within the roots of human ignorance. When we see commericals for children starving in Africa, do we pick up the phone and help? No - we can't afford that....not when we're trying to save up for the 52" big screen television! So instead of taking responsibility for what can easily be changed, we just blame God for his utter lack of regard. Some people go so far as to hate God for not having fixed things. It's our disgusting selfishness and greed that has left the world the way it is. |
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No, it is our greed and selfishness that makes us work and acheive things. Altruism, and religion is what has made the world the way it is. |
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i agree |
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eeehm...no..i disagree |
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Couldn't disagree more. |
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I hope you're joking. |
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Ayn Rand is your copilot, eh? :-) |
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That post made my day!!! :) |
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it's probably at least equally due to war in the name of god. |
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Reply to all: haha, yes I'm serious. ayn rand, yeah, i've read atlas shrugged and the fountainhead. i'm not such a good objectivist because, well: 1. I am a lazy person. 2. I'm not so convinced of the existence of pure free will |
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So mappatazee, being self-less and self-sacrificing for the well-being of others has led to positive or negative outcomes? |
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Religion is just a way to justify the uncertainty of life. It all stems from fear, and feeling of misplacement if you ask me. It ain't my bag baby |
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agreed, MC |
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I disagree. Everlasting life isn't why I believe in a God. I could care less if the lights "go out" when I die and I'm never again to see the light again. If I die and there is no afterlife, I would have no memory of my life (and no consciousness), and therefore no suffering or desire would be associated with death. Eternal sleep without heaven is an acceptable result of my death. Rather I believe in God because I have been toiling with that question for over 10 years of my life. I've read numerous Holy (and un-holy) texts in Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and Native spirituality; I meditate, I pray, I try to conduct all my actions in a way that is right and self-less (as hard as it may be), and I believe in God simply because I have no choice BUT to believe. |
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Why do you have no other choice?? |
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i'm sure you have studied all that stuff. But why are people relegious? My theory is that humans have the intellectual capacity to realise the permance of death, or the hindrance of hurt, pain and loss. Religion is a tool to alleviate these fears. All religions preach a state of some "other" when the physical life is no more. That signifies fear to me. You don't see any other species practising religion do you? |
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I respect people's beliefs, but I especially respect informed beliefs. We may disagree, but your belief is obviously no blind and sheep-like, as is that of probably 99% of religious people. I just don't have that need to be filled. What I don't understand is, as merg said, why you have no choice. |
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Although elephants have complex death rituals where they walk around the corpse of the fallen elephant and touch it with their trunks. Nothing to do with religion, but pretty cool, eh? |
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