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offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 07:49 [#00831025]
Points: 836 Status: Regular



After the events that I have experienced, I would simply
have to FORCE myself to believe that what I have and
continue to witness each day is a product of random
possibilities and coincidence, not at all associtated with a
"God" in any sense.

Those who question free will (determinism) should consider
what would be necessary to to maintain mathematically
precise outcomes to every cause since the creation of the
universe billions of years ago.

I will however agree with you, that a number of people are
religious for the wrong reasons. You shouldn't have to be
Christian JUST so you can save yourself from the fear of
death. People have to invest their own time into
spirituality, when THEY are ready, and do so in a manner
that prevents corruption from the societal-religious fabric.

I've been to church and I've been disgusted at what I've
seen - a bunch of non-thinkers repeating like drones, psalms
of forgiveness and salvation under the instruction of a
child-molesting leader. I've read the Bible in my own time,
and I pray behind closed doors in my room (just like Jesus
instructs actually).

Church is more like a fashion show than anything to do with
God.


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 07:51 [#00831026]
Points: 836 Status: Regular | Followup to mc_303_beatz: #00831015



No I don't think animals practice religion, but to be
honest, I think true (I like to use spirituality) transcends
a superficial understanding of written or spoken text. True
religion is a feeling and an unspoken understanding of the
self - universe relationship.


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 07:54 [#00831031]
Points: 836 Status: Regular



I can't argue that religion has been misused to the point
where I would doubt if it were functioning to serve the
opposite of its intentions.


 

offline atgmartin from DeathMallMegaComplexville (United States) on 2003-08-21 08:04 [#00831040]
Points: 873 Status: Lurker | Followup to catharsis: #00831025



These events you experienced: I'm not trying to be facetious
here, but were they experienced under the influence?


 

offline atgmartin from DeathMallMegaComplexville (United States) on 2003-08-21 08:05 [#00831043]
Points: 873 Status: Lurker | Followup to catharsis: #00831025



Plus, if I had the mathematical formula to determine all
possible future outcomes, would I be a rich motherfucker.


 

offline Key_Secret from Sverige (Sweden) on 2003-08-21 08:39 [#00831088]
Points: 9325 Status: Regular | Followup to catharsis: #00830312



Key_Secret.....are you referring to an epiphany? I've had
them before too - they're like little
mini-enlightenments.


This was not an enlightment, and I do not know what an
epiphany is, but this was BIG... It was not enlightment, but
I became extremely aware of something... It was a fact I
realized, it was one of thoose things taken for granted that
I questioned, and realized how it really was.
This is not the raw-food ting (eventhough I think that was
kinda enlightning to), this was a sudden strike (something I
realized myself, not reading anything, but when speaking to
a friend) and I felt really scared by what I had come across
for several hours... But instead of getting calm I got
sortof stressed, and my hearbeat pumped real fast...
well that's how it was. I like it, but it was a really scary
experience, not pleasant at all. Though it was a thrill :)


 

offline Key_Secret from Sverige (Sweden) on 2003-08-21 08:46 [#00831091]
Points: 9325 Status: Regular



If you understand the value of life, you will not worry
about death no longer. I don't. you can not worry about
death for other reasons, but understanding the value of life
is vital.

I would like to get into meditating. I think I could only
feel better from it...
How ofthen do you meditate, catharsis?


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 09:27 [#00831177]
Points: 836 Status: Regular | Followup to atgmartin: #00831040



No - they weren't under the influence. Usually in
meditative state (either walking or sitting).


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 09:33 [#00831187]
Points: 836 Status: Regular | Followup to Key_Secret: #00831091



Well - what was originally a couple hours of seated
meditation per day has become daily active meditation for
the most part.

The technique of walking meditation includes giving every
action intense and immediate attention / focus. Every
action must be done with whole-heartedness both of the body
and the mind. When I'm drinking a glass of water, I'm
drinking it like it's the last sip I'll ever take and I'm
not thinking about when I should start studying, or what's
on the TV at 9:00.

Try going about your daily business by focusing on present
action and events - always reflecting and focusing on the
HERE and NOW. I've put myself into some pretty severe
mental states by doing this. I've even had my mom ask me
"what's wrong" a few times while doing it.

I think many people undergo a kind of transformation when
they TRULY realize that they are going to die. Overcoming
the fear of death is paramount.


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 09:35 [#00831190]
Points: 836 Status: Regular



It's amazing how often the mind deviates from its course -
even when you TRY to focus. It takes a tremendous amount of
energy to focus the mind.

The important thing to remember is not to fight and get
angered by these drifting thoughts, but to simply recognize
them, acknowledge them, and then let them pass.


 

offline J Swift from United Kingdom on 2003-08-21 10:03 [#00831223]
Points: 650 Status: Regular



I find music making very Zen-like these days - It's an odd
state of mind you get into, time loses all meaning, you're
so focused but at the same time you're not really there - I
actually only got into music heavily after getting anxiety
after giving up smoking...
Martial Arts is another form of meditation isn't it - That's
what they're really about, not really about fighting, that's
sort of a secondary aspect to them - But all the time you're
concentrating on the moment and your body movements, living
very much in the here and now.
I don't really believe religion has ever caused war, I think
it's just an excuse/scape-goat for a lot of people - In
countries where religious segregation is causing violence I
can only blame the bored/violent idiots who go along with
it, not the religion... Jesus never justified going to war
with people who oppose your beliefs!!! Surely not!!
I believe spiritual progression is the only reason we're
here, the only reason we have the ability to think on such
abstract and introspective levels.


 

offline Key_Secret from Sverige (Sweden) on 2003-08-21 10:06 [#00831224]
Points: 9325 Status: Regular | Followup to J Swift: #00831223



well religion can't cause war - it's impossible. Cause it's
not a living thing. However people can cause war, and should
be blamed.


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 10:13 [#00831227]
Points: 836 Status: Regular | Followup to J Swift: #00831223



Yepper...I took martial arts for about 5 years (too
expensive to keep training in Toronto), and martial arts and
zen go hand in hand (speaking of the true martial arts - not
the fighting skills).

Karate for example contains meditative sequences called
"katas" which are pre-arranged techniques against
"invisible" attackers. While it seems rather dull and
pointless at first - most karate masters (not the Chuck
Norris kind), insist that karate IS the kata. I transform
into an entirely new energy when I do kata. If your mind is
wandering during the intense focus of the kata (done
correctly) the energy of the kata snaps and dissipates into
a meaningless movement.


 

offline atgmartin from DeathMallMegaComplexville (United States) on 2003-08-21 10:36 [#00831238]
Points: 873 Status: Lurker | Followup to catharsis: #00831177



No, were YOU under the influence?


 

offline atgmartin from DeathMallMegaComplexville (United States) on 2003-08-21 10:40 [#00831240]
Points: 873 Status: Lurker | Followup to Key_Secret: #00831224



Humans can cause war, and other crimes against humanity, in
the name of religion though. To me, reiligion is on the
same level as politics in so many ways.


 

offline plaidzebra from so long, xlt on 2003-08-21 10:52 [#00831249]
Points: 5678 Status: Lurker



some think they have an informed opinion on "god", yet they
rely on the uninformed to pass judgement on the validity of
belief in "god."

in my experience, this awareness is inevitable for all
individuals, but no amount of arm-twisting or persuasion
will hasten this process.

i was raised lutheran, and then became atheist, and then
agnostic, and after about 17 years i was no longer able to
deny what had been demonstrated to me. i could no longer
justify my agnosticism.

don't be mistaken in thinking that the crude models that we
call religion do anything more than point in the direction
of something that is at once strange and familiar, what is
at the core of our being.

i insist that each of you will persist in conscious form
after the death of your body. is this good or bad? can you
appreciate that this question, in this context, no longer
has meaning?

at the very least, you will have your proof.


 

offline atgmartin from DeathMallMegaComplexville (United States) on 2003-08-21 11:06 [#00831256]
Points: 873 Status: Lurker



The only problem is you insistence. That's what crosses the
line between opinion and evanglelism. Don't get me wrong, I
respect your beliefs, as I respect those of J Swift and
Catharsis. These to guys present very well-written,
interesting points of views while not once saying "No you're
wrong there IS a God you will see." They get the point
across that they are sure in their hearts. Don't insist to
me what will happen to me after I die. The fact is, insist
all you want, but you don't KNOW, you BELIEVE. That is
faith, and that is entirely different from knowledge. I
don't believe in god because I have not seen proof. There
are those that will infer and interpret proof in anything
they see and say "Look at the prefection of that sea
anemone. There is your proof of God." I'm not convinced by
that. There are those that will say, "Believe in God,
because at the end, if you believed in God and were wrong,
it would be better than not believing in God and being
wrong, and burning in hell, etc." That's not being genuine
and I'm not with it either. What I AM with is whatever you
believe, you present it as your faith, relate experiences
that have made you spiritual, not just blindly stab out with
I INSIST, BLAH BLAH BLAH. I've worked with some crazy
people that remind me of that.


 

offline plaidzebra from so long, xlt on 2003-08-21 11:07 [#00831258]
Points: 5678 Status: Lurker




key_secret, you are like a dancing spring.

maybe the most important act of all would be removing all of
the divisions between people. smart, stupid, lazy,
industrious, this race, that race, left wing, right wing,
orthodox, pagan, ugly, beautiful. i'm not saying to deny
your experience of these things, to deny your humanity. but
if you look beneath these distinctions, you will see only
brothers and sisters.

as long as you see a bite of food in your neighbor's mouth
as a missing bite from your plate, we will endure tremendous
suffering. ayn rand's misguided philosophy is like a poison
in our collective well. all of the riches and gifts of
capitalist endeavor, how do they serve ayn rand now?


 

offline atgmartin from DeathMallMegaComplexville (United States) on 2003-08-21 11:11 [#00831261]
Points: 873 Status: Lurker



Plus I was raised catholic. I got to an age where I
realized that the catholic church is a racket and the pope
is a thief. The vatican is a fuckin solid gold palace.
that's what started it all for me. Then for the first time,
I really started to think about what religion means to
society and I looked within myself and discovered that I am
satisfied with my own points of view, my own explanations.
Just from really thinking about it. I feel like I get
everything religion truly sets out to accomplish within
myself. Therefore, as an institution, I don't need
religion, and as a spiritual leader, I don't need a higher
power, a prophet, a priest etc.


 

offline atgmartin from DeathMallMegaComplexville (United States) on 2003-08-21 11:13 [#00831263]
Points: 873 Status: Lurker | Followup to plaidzebra: #00831258



I look at it as a bite missing from my plate only if it was
taken from my plate without my offering it.


 

offline plaidzebra from so long, xlt on 2003-08-21 11:17 [#00831271]
Points: 5678 Status: Lurker



atg, you misunderstand what i mean by insist. i don't mean,
i insist and will twist your arm until you agree. i *will*
say that i *do* know, and i *will* say that you *will* see.
you can believe as you will, this doesn't affect me, nor
should my belief affect you. don't think because i assert
this that i put myself on some sort of plateau above anyone
else. if the subject comes up, as it has come up here, i
will report that i have seen the proof, and it is absolute.
again, as i have said, i recognize that no one but myself
can accept this proof. so i report it, acknowledge it
publicly, with no expectations on your part. i have not
even spoken about who god is. to me, "is there or is there
not a god?" is not a meaningful question. i can't even tell
you if i believe in god, unless you can tell me who god is.


 

offline plaidzebra from so long, xlt on 2003-08-21 11:33 [#00831291]
Points: 5678 Status: Lurker



atg, i make no claim to know anything about *what will
happen to you* when you die. i never said that you would
see god. your death will certainly provide proof to *you*
as to what happens to *you* when *you* die!

you seem to be offended by people taking a stand on what
they believe, as if you take their disagreeing with you as a
judgement against you, as a statement of your wrongness. i
don't believe that you are wrong. i see us looking at the
same thing from different perspectives. i choose not to be
wishy washy about it for my own reasons. neither will i
claim to know what i do not know. i spoke of my personal
experience, and can do no more.




 

offline Key_Secret from Sverige (Sweden) on 2003-08-21 11:39 [#00831302]
Points: 9325 Status: Regular | Followup to atgmartin: #00831240



Religion shouldn't have anything to do with politics -
because the purpose of these two is way different.
And again, think about what you're saying. You can go to war
in the name of anything - it's still the ACTUAL WAR that
sucks and shouldn't exist. And the war was not started
because of religion - because religion is a concept [a way
of looking at life/the world] and is not "alive".
In fact it's very similar to blame religion for war as to
blame Marylin Manson or a similar artist for violent acts. I
mean do you think that is right?
The people who start war are "guilty" of starting the war -
not their beliefs.

At present, it's probably more important to realize how many
people suffer today because of capitalism?... We should put
a stop to that as soon as possible...


 

offline plaidzebra from so long, xlt on 2003-08-21 11:42 [#00831308]
Points: 5678 Status: Lurker



atg, i realize now that my use of the word "see" implies
that you you will come to agree with my perspective. by
"see," i mean only that you will perceive beyond the death
of your body. however, i did not intend to imply knowledge
of anything else relating to your personal experience, or
even imply that you would as a result come to believe in
"god".


 

offline atgmartin from DeathMallMegaComplexville (United States) on 2003-08-21 11:50 [#00831314]
Points: 873 Status: Lurker | Followup to plaidzebra: #00831291



It doesn't offend me, it just annoys me. You've looked at
this through the eyes of an atheist. Did you not ever feel
that? Not everyone does it though. Look at Catharsis' and J
Swift's posts. When you start insisting and saying you
KNOW, you are saying someone is wrong. Now if I'm wrong, so
be it. But no one can put forth any evidence. It's always
the same song and dance. You don't need evidence to have
FAITH. You do need evidence to say that I'm wrong though.
That's the only issue I have.


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 11:52 [#00831316]
Points: 836 Status: Regular



Sorry atgmartin. NO I was not under any influence other
than my own meditation when I have these experiences.


 

offline atgmartin from DeathMallMegaComplexville (United States) on 2003-08-21 11:53 [#00831318]
Points: 873 Status: Lurker | Followup to Key_Secret: #00831302



Has there ever been a Jewish president in this country?
Ahhh, don't mind me, I'm just stirring shit. :)


 

offline evolume from seattle (United States) on 2003-08-21 12:03 [#00831344]
Points: 10965 Status: Regular



i believe that whether or not there is a god is irrelevant.
If some supreme being exists, i believe it is very likely
that it is not a concious entity. It has no knowledge of
our existence or if it does, it does not care.

either way, what concerns me during life, is life itself and
sucking ever last drop of it. If i let it go to waste, and
it turns out to be the only one i get, i will have
squandered away a fantastic opportunity for experience and
that would be a great tragedy.



 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 12:07 [#00831352]
Points: 836 Status: Regular



I know I've said this before, but "eye for an eye, tooth for
a tooth", as stated in the Old Testament, is just one of
many justifications for war with religious support. Despite
the fact that Jesus condemned the practice of revenge (I
thought it was human produced bullshit from the start
myself), people will ignore Jesus to favour any other
passage in any Holy text that grants them the right to wage
war.


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 12:09 [#00831358]
Points: 836 Status: Regular



The Mafia has no trouble beating people to death with their
newly severed stumps so long as their is a Catholic Church
around the corner to repent sins and ask for forgiveness.

The very fact that the Vatican is made of gold is
hypocritical, disgusting, and is a slap in the face to all
of Jesus' teachings and the millions of people who could
have benefitted from a church made of bricks instead.


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 12:10 [#00831359]
Points: 836 Status: Regular



Evolume (like your new avatar), that is very Buddhist of
you. Some religions are concerned with after-life, some
religions are concerned with life.


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 12:15 [#00831363]
Points: 836 Status: Regular | Followup to atgmartin: #00831318



Maybe not a Jewish president, but how about a really fucking
stupid one?


 

offline atgmartin from DeathMallMegaComplexville (United States) on 2003-08-21 12:15 [#00831364]
Points: 873 Status: Lurker | Followup to evolume: #00831344



I like that. I agree.


 

offline atgmartin from DeathMallMegaComplexville (United States) on 2003-08-21 12:16 [#00831366]
Points: 873 Status: Lurker | Followup to catharsis: #00831363



Oh, they've had their share of those:-)


 

offline mappatazee from ¨y¨z¨| (Burkina Faso) on 2003-08-21 12:31 [#00831389]
Points: 14294 Status: Lurker



This is funny. It might be a bit small, but you can save it
and then zoom in with a picture viewer,
or some such program.


Attached picture

 

offline atgmartin from DeathMallMegaComplexville (United States) on 2003-08-21 12:36 [#00831397]
Points: 873 Status: Lurker



I'm surprised at the high number in each category.


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 12:39 [#00831403]
Points: 836 Status: Regular



If you think of things from a global perspective,
subscribing to one religion and all its details would seem
absurd. Without getting into too many details (I can give
quite a few), the commonalities of world religions are more
important than the ritualistic details that vary from
culture to culture.

I'm inclined to believe that religions WERE created by
humans, BUT these religions were more of an organized
reflection of a self-aware culture connecting with the
universe. Regardless of whether Jesus was the son of a
Christian God, his message and the messages of those like
Him (Buddha, Lao Tzu etc.) are remarkably inhuman in nature
and reflect an individual with transcendence beyond ordinary
human thought.

We all have this inner awareness of God or Universal Force,
or Consciousness, but religion is a reflection of that
awareness and is very unique to every culture. If you
examine the central core of every world religion, you will
see that the commonalities are remarkable.

IN FACT, did you know that the phrase "do unto others as you
would have them do unto you" is evident in over 20 world
religions (variations of the phrase of course). Could you
imagine what kind of world would exist had we exercised this
lesson? Were ancient societies so full of peace and love
that they included this phrase into their religious texts?




 

offline mappatazee from ¨y¨z¨| (Burkina Faso) on 2003-08-21 12:39 [#00831404]
Points: 14294 Status: Lurker



Yeah,
it's scary really.


 

offline mappatazee from ¨y¨z¨| (Burkina Faso) on 2003-08-21 12:42 [#00831410]
Points: 14294 Status: Lurker | Followup to catharsis: #00830986



in reply to catharsis' question
way down there that i missed:

negative


 

offline glass_eater from a blind nerves area (Switzerland) on 2003-08-21 12:43 [#00831412]
Points: 4904 Status: Regular



im totally with you catharsis
i pray one good for all the people who believe in something
because we all have the same god, he has all the faces he
wants adaptated to every culture
thats what i think


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 12:47 [#00831423]
Points: 836 Status: Regular



The parable of the elephant and the blind men (shortened
version):

15 blind men were lead to a new creature (elephant) that
none of them had encountered before. Each held out his hand
and each man was directed to touch a different part of the
elephant.

One man felt the trunk, the other the tusks, the other the
eyes, the other the tail, the other the nails and so on and
so on......

The men then began to argue and fight over what it was that
they were touching. Each one insisted that the other was
lying or incorrect and violence began to ensue.

If they were not so blind, they would have tolerated each
other's unique experience of a singular phenomenon.

(Take from this what you will)



 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 12:49 [#00831429]
Points: 836 Status: Regular



Once again, I'm inclined to disagree with you mappatazee.


 

offline mappatazee from ¨y¨z¨| (Burkina Faso) on 2003-08-21 12:51 [#00831436]
Points: 14294 Status: Lurker | Followup to catharsis: #00831423



Very interesting explanation for how all religions are
derived from the same inability to explain the world as we
know it, they just do it in all different ways.


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 13:04 [#00831471]
Points: 836 Status: Regular | Followup to mappatazee: #00831436



What would seem more likely to you?

1) God created the Universe
2) The Universe created God
3) The Universe IS God

If you have any other rational suggestions I would be very
interested in hearing them. If you found a watch laying on
the beach, you would instantly assume that it was created
and placed there. Why is anything else so different to you?
You're looking at your monitor right now composed of
trillions of atomic particles, glowing phosphorus and
emitting radiation of various kinds. How do you explain
what is in front of you?

I don't want to give the impression that God is a big
translucent human-like creature floating around in space,
but I find it hard to believe that you have no idea what
this "God" could be. Perhaps it hasn't hit you yet.


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 13:09 [#00831481]
Points: 836 Status: Regular



I think many people are still trying to define God. What
does He look like? His eyes, ears, beard, clothes.....

What the fuck do you think? He doesn't need eyes, ears, a
mouth, a voice box, two arms, to legs, fingers, hair etc.

Heck he isn't even a HE. Unless there is a Mrs. God
complete with a vagina, I fail to see what would make God
ANY gender. You've got feminists arguing that God is really
a female when if you stopped for two seconds to think about
it you would fail to see the necessity of God with a body at
all.


 

offline atgmartin from DeathMallMegaComplexville (United States) on 2003-08-21 13:10 [#00831487]
Points: 873 Status: Lurker | Followup to catharsis: #00831471



or 4) Humans created god.

I'm not trying to push it; it's just another valid option
that represents some beliefs.


 

offline glass_eater from a blind nerves area (Switzerland) on 2003-08-21 13:12 [#00831488]
Points: 4904 Status: Regular



actually i "felt" god a few years back...since then i
believe so... its a profond feeling very pure...... im 21 im
not gay and not influenced by anybody...
why did i talk about gayness?


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 13:16 [#00831494]
Points: 836 Status: Regular | Followup to atgmartin: #00831487



Then perhaps humans created the universe as well?
Do you have any suggestions on how the Universe was formed?


 

offline catharsis from Toronto (Canada) on 2003-08-21 13:18 [#00831498]
Points: 836 Status: Regular



I ask you this. Did humans create atoms, radiation,
electrons, quanta, photons, heat, cold, and the other
elements of the universe as we know it.

If the answer is "no" then I fail to see how humans could
similarly create God.


 

offline atgmartin from DeathMallMegaComplexville (United States) on 2003-08-21 13:25 [#00831511]
Points: 873 Status: Lurker | Followup to catharsis: #00831494



If I could properly formulate a suggestion, I would not be
sitting in this wank chair at this wank job right now. :)

I can only suggest cosmic phenomena of which I can not fully
express, I can only throw words around such as "entropy,"
"energy" which remains constant, "mass" which remains
constant. I wish I know more answers to this question. To
be honest, it interests me, but not to the extent that I
wish to read up very much on it. (I would rather go home
and play computer games:-)) My not knowing the answer to
this question does not trouble me. I know that the universe
has formed, that I am on the planet, that I will be on the
planet for a very short amount of time, that I have a set of
ethical guidelines by which I live my life, that I do not
answer to a higher power, that I don't believe there is one
to answer to, etc. In the immortal words of Thought
Industry (though slightly out of context) "For I believe in
no god, and not god believes in me"


 


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