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4) humans created the concept of God. There. |
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If light, mass and energy = God, I wouldn't be inclined to disagree. It's certainly more accurate than our traditional depiction of God. Props on your interpretation. |
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There are some that argue that the very fact that we have a conception of God proves its existence. I don't disagree with your suggestion; like I stated before, the details of God vary from culture to culture, and the concept of what we define as God / Tao / Universal Energy is of human origin and culture specific. The question remains however, if the Universe did not always exist, it must have been created? |
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We have a concept of dragons, ogres and those walking tree dudes from Lord of the Rings, too. |
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thatz pretty bullshits for the last part ,energy, light and all, thats not a proof at all...either you feel it either not.. you cannot really prove or deny, thats it |
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That was my arguement too. I wish Lord of the Rings was real though. It would be so cool to take out some orcs with a kick-ass bow. |
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Maybe the universe always did exist, though in a different configuration. The concept of linear time here will fuck with both points of view. What about god? was he born, because what was going on before god. was the universe created, if so when, and what was going on before that? It's literally a mind-fuck for either of us. |
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haha from LOTR not really, i just went to iceland and theyve got elfian stories and its 280 years old dude :) even in other places, we have elfs in switzerland too... |
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Jesus was bornded. It was like when the Bantha ate Brent Sienna in PvP. "I guess there's only one way out of a virgin..." |
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You can deny it. I do. I think it takes a stronger person to stand up for something that can't be proven though, and do it without rehashing the same preprogrammed shit. I have to applaude you guys. And I am being totally serious here. |
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You can't prove it in the tangible sense of a photo or letter from God. But, you could make an excellent case using reason. I took a philosophy course in Unversity that wrestled with the ideas of determinism (free will), creation etc. Some of those philosophers present quite the case - hard to dispute. |
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Some lawyers get guilty people set free and innocent people thrown into jail. |
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Contemplating on the beginning and end of time is actually a meditative technique in zen buddhism. Because there is no logical answer, only with the destruction of the intellect can the truth be known. I'm working on it - I'll let you know when I figure it out ;) |
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That line was inseretd with perfect style. |
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LOL! |
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Atgmartin, I'm just curious. Where will you (your consciousness) go when you die? I'm not looking for any answer, I'm just interested in what you think, and it might help me to better understand your perspective. |
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What's it like when you pass out, or are anesthesized, put to sleep, for a surgery or something? A whole lot of nothing. That's what happens. |
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Catharsis, We are sentient beings, like all animals. Like my pet snake, my pet cat, when I die, I believe I will be no more. My body will be burned, or rot, whatever, my brain will have been extinguished, my thoughts and memories gone. I believe that when we die, we are no more. I've been through a death in the family recently, where it would have been comforting to believe something romantic like heaven, or reincarnation, but I just don't. I cannot be anything other than true to what I believe, even if it's not as comforting. |
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Conciousness is just a convenient term for various biological, chemical and electrical goings on in the brain, When they cease, conciousness ceases. |
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People like to hope that death isn't the end. They ask, how could that be? The answer is so obvious, why don't they look at what happened before they were alive? What was it like before you were born? Nothing. Because the person you call 'I', was grown in your mothers uterus, assembled by the instructions in your DNA that have evolved over what is it? 2.5 billion years of life on earth? |
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O.K. So loss of consciousness, loss of memory....it's like you never even existed. Correct? It's quite believable IMO. Though your energy and your matter never truly die, I have no argument against the cessation of consciousness. Even if you believe in reincarnation, people can rarely recall past-lives, so again......it's really not at all morbid. |
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Unproven. |
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There's nothing to prove. |
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I can affect my physiology through willfull thought, and my physiology can affect my thoughts. The notion that I can willfully change the rate and type of chemical reactions in the body would suggest that there is an entity that functions under our control that is not dependent on these physical things. No one has found the seed of conciousness - no one is even certain that conciousness resides within the brain. |
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Valid point. Some people cannot accept the thought of eternal sleep. If you have no memory of the past or awareness of the present, you're essentially in a state of non-being (as we would define it), and like mappatazee suggested, no different than before we were born. |
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Uhh, right... It seems pretty clear yours doesn't reside in your brain, and i've got a pretty good idea where it does. |
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Maybe it's that we only use a small percentage of our brain's potential. Some people have mastered the art of slowing down and even stopping their heart but by the power of thought. Maybe they have honed the part of their brain that controls the parasympathetic nervous systems to a degree greater than the average person. I mean, I can move my ears. I can also move my toe next to the big toe on my right foot, without moving any other toes, which most people can't do. |
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Willful thought, yes: every part of your body is controlled directly, or inderectly by your brain, and if you can train your mind to stimulate the correct response, you can affect your physiology whether it's through increased heart-rate, endorphines released by the pituitary, etc. etc. It seems that would prove further that the consciousness resides in the brain, rather than the astral 15th dimension cyber-soul-space. |
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being able to do things like that comes from having different muscular structures. Like curling your tongue and such, some people lack the muscles that pull in a certain direction because of what is coded for in their genes. |
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Yes, thought releases specific chemicals that affect other organs and glands. But if you are to suggest that even thought and personality itself is goverened by chemicals of which we have no control, I ask you what is controlling the release of these chemicals. IF your response is "nothing", then you've just demonstrated that you feel that free-will is false, and we are merely running on auto-pilot as a series of effects from an initial cause that was started at the beginning of the universe. |
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There's no such thing as 'willful thought'. Every thought you have is the logical consequence of the myriad events that immediately preceeded it. |
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I think everyone believes in cause and effect, but that's not the issue here. |
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So essentially you believe in determinism. If I go out an kill somebody with an axe right now, it would be because I have no control. I would be operating on effect from an initial cause. |
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If everyone believes in cause and effect, then essentially we don't believe in free will. I don't think you'll get many supporters there. It's a perfectly valid and accepted hypothesis - it's just too scary to fathom by most people. Especially religious nuts. |
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agreed with danbrusca. In such a mind-boggling complex system of neurons and synapses, neurotransmitters receiving and dealing with chaotic stimuli all the time, the illusion of free-will is very convincing. I don't feel too much like a machine all the time. But the point is, there is nothing 'mystical' or 'spiritual' behind consciousness. We can't even predict the weather hardly. |
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It's the issue in the post I was replying to. |
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And as an effect of you killing someone, you will be punished for your actions. |
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No shit sherlock. Help, the determinists are ganging up on me! I guess now I can just sit back and let the auto-pilot soar. OFF TO THE XBOX!!! ;) |
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hehe... |
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Hey now, there is the quantum uncertainty principal, limiting our knowledge of what's going to happen by the Heisenberg (i think that's it?) limit. So, you've got some leeway to play around with there |
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oh you have an xbox... in a few minutes we'll reach the point |
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Yeah, one thing I learnt from years of computer programming, very blatantly, is that there's no way to ever create awareness, which is the actual experience of consiousness... There's also no way to measure it, so it's a tough one. One argument is that it occurs at a certain level of complexity - Which, if it were actually right, could mean the universe itself was aware, being as space and time are all relative, etc... and there are a similar number of stars in the universe to brain cells in the brain (at least that's what I've heard). I believe it will be very possible to perfectly simulate human consiousness in software, but that is a fundamentally different thing from awareness, which is "true" consiousness I guess... I do believe that man's concept of God is created by man, that is definetly true - But I don't believe it's created out of rational thought or imagination, I believe it's a good arguement for God's existance, as all animals have a large amount of innate knowledge - Especially as pretty much all religions agree that we are all part of God, it is quite likely that the concept would be implanted deep within our minds... Union with God is actually characteristic of anyone (from atheists to hindu's) who takes VERY large amounts of LSD - My perspective is that consiousness isn't localised and you are actually God, just a particular perspective... Afterall, if you woke up with consious access to everyone's memories you would sort of become everyone, but obviously there are physical survival reasons for that not being the case. You can see true consiousness as an entirely different level of reality - You'd have to say it's fundamental to the universe too, as it does seem like everything's in place for it to evolve, all the constants of space/time... |
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That last part there, that's an 'anthropic' principal. That would be an answer to the question: "Why is the universe the way it is?" "It is that way so that it could be observed by me and this question could be asked" |
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Similar to the anthropomorphic principal that suggests that everything in this universe is created solely for human use (like the Bible would suggest). I think this is utter bullshit. |
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i think the universe was created solely for itself. Therefore the beings that learn to manipulate it, can do whatever they damn well please with it. After all we ARE the universe. |
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I thought we were the WORLD and the CHILDREN. Stupidity aside though, that was a splendid comment weatheredstoner. |
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agreed, weatheredstoner hit the nail on the head. |
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You could say that consiousness is the end result of this set of constants in reality though - We are proof of that - We would have happened at some point, somewhere in the universe if not here - I'm sure it's not such an unlikely possibility... Which kind of suggests that this universe (which we are an integral part of) was intended to become/create consiousness. One of the main arguments for the existance of God in physics and philosophy has been that the universal consants are so finely balanced - So maybe there's infinite universes all with different constants and characteristics (very few achieving physical matter atall), or that there is an underlying intelligence running through the whole thing, maybe an ability to create itself. I think Jack Kerouac used to view the universe as a giant womb of consiousness and life. (I also saw an interesting documentary about consiousness not too long ago on Brit TV - They believed the consious element of the mind existed on the quantum level, in micro-neurons, which are like mini-computers, following the laws of quantum physics, evaporating into the cosmos, yet staying together and formed when physical death of the body occured. Were tryng to explain how near death experiences so often involve floating perspectives and things...) |
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Seeing shit like that is a common side effect of your brain not receiving enough oxygen. Kind of like native american's used to go on their little treck in to the woods to see their guardian vision or whatever. All it was was them starving and/or low blood sugar. |
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"...I believe it's a good arguement for God's existance, as all animals have a large amount of innate knowledge" All flying birds know that they have to fly when they are little chickies. Not all humans know that they have to believe in god. I cannot liken the two scenarios, unless I'm defective. |
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