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 (nobody)...and 610 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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Members 8025Messages 2614128 Today 0 Topics 127542 |
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i'm not sure what you're talking about exactly. do you mean libel or something? |
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True free speech can and will never exist. Only a fool would believe otherwise. |
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Ghandi is great without a doubt! The whole salt thing is us (if you except that) being evil. I'm not 4 thousand years old and don't feel the need to honour my forefathers mistakes. I'm me. I'm sure there's lots of an overlap but killing people for cartoons? It's a cartoon. |
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oh, thanks for letting me know. i'm going to cross it off my list of ideological standpoints now that i know it can never be achieved. |
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among other things, yes. libel = lies that tarnish someones reputation (said the dictionary) but I'm also talking truths that tarnish someones reputation. |
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the whole defend free speech thing kind of seems to go too much into the abstract - it becomes something like "we must defend our freedom!". what does that mean? is it really worth that much to you? do you really want to be able to offend millions of people simply because you feel like it or do not have a complete grasp of someone else's culture? I'm not saying I don't think freedom of speech shouldn't be defended, I just don't think it's very productive to see it is as this abstract kind of right. I like too keep it more down to earth. |
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it really would depend on each case, but suing someone is a bit different than killing them, wouldn't you say? |
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haha I completely agree that it is fucking stupid that people would want to kill other people over a cartoon (although I once watched Beavis and Butthead and wanted to kill everyone at MTV) |
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agreed with every word. |
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that should read: "I'm not saying I think freedom of speech shouldn't be defended". and it's also not directed specifically at Arf, it might look like that. :) |
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...and even with a long hair to make the picture of him as far from the truth as possible. that story was a interesting reading. |
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You also used to wrong "to". You're a bad boy. |
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so if you're going to present that point, please follow it up by applying it to this issue. should the muslims have a right to protest and should the cartoon be allowed to be published? |
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*sighs at own typo* |
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i dropped a quart of milk at the grocers and it got spilt onto my new moccasins. |
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HaHa! that makes no sense which ever way It's presented! |
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People have a right to exercise "free speech" but they also have a responsibility to exercise restraint. People have a right to protest but they also have a responsibility to exercise restraint. Making a whole country pay for the actions of a very very small subsection of the populace is just unfair. |
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haha it was great it actually intially looks like a really logical, well thought out and well presented point. I read it and thought WTF/LOL but I understood what you meant. |
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not necessarily. suing someone is the "civilised" way of killing them. taking his money, possibly giving him again a bad reputation (possibly making getting a job harder).. the full "kill" would just be if someone really powerful first took all money, then made sure "you'll never work again," as we see in the cliché movies. I don't know if something like that has ever happened, but I don't find it unlikely... |
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yeah, that's something that has been a bit overlooked until now. with freedom comes responsibility. see, you do make good points! |
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i mostly agree, it's just that it's horribly wrong that someone would have to worry that their art could get them killed or their country attacked. |
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what do you think about that "art should provoke" take on art? |
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i think some art should provoke people. |
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I mean.. if that's all there is to it. "this piece of art is supposed to provoke" |
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You see the sort of thing we have to resort to when there's no BIYC on friday? Just thinking how different this evening would have been if Chris had his internet working. |
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yeah, what's the problem? most art is purely aesthetic. something that's provocative has a different meaning. i think it is an incredibly important aspect of self expression. the problem is that what constitutes an "offensive" work obviously varies between cultures and throughout history. so what may be provocative one day is not the next, etc. a lot of good art challenges one's perceptions, and that's the intent of it. yeah, you could paint a vase of flowers every day, but then we wouldn't have any modern art. |
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let's buy him a new copy of the internet! |
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i haven't read this thread. but i think you should respect peoples beliefs, regardless of whether you think they are hogwash or not. |
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well, i agree with your first statement, if I'm reading it correctly.. when it comes to "art," I don't really give a fuck what someone intended it to be or whatever; if I like it, I like it. however, when an artist makes a piece and then he's interviewed and says "I made this piece to provoke." Well, that just makes him seem like (1) annoying or (2) ignorant. 1 is because.. well, if you're trying to provoke, you've probably succeeded if this is true.. however, I could find the artwork pleasing and still think the artist to be an annoying prick just because he had to try and provoke someone. what good will that do? 2 would be because he thinks he could actually convey his provocation to all people who percieve the art; as you said, it's all relative, and it doesn't really seem to me like even those "I know art so fuck off" people REALLY get the artwork then.. if they like it, they've missed the point, and if they don't, it wouldn't matter anyway... (oo, we got somewhat of a discussion of sorts anyway! I'm a happy drunk!) |
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that's kind of speculative... i'm not sure how to respond. there was a painting in new york city about five or six years ago that was hanging at a modern art museum (funded, i believe in part, by an art grant from the city). and the mayor at the time, guliani, had it removed. why? because the painting was of the virgin mary with shit and pornography. |
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mah the answer is pretty simple |
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should i read any of this thread? |
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i don't think it will blow your mind |
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the cartoon is racist and doesn't have a deeper meaning other than to label muslims as hot-headed and uncivilized and irrational. it is a cop out to say it was simply intended to provoke people. thoughtless provocation, which this obviously was, doesn't have a place in a newspaper. this kind of art is very unimpressive and it's unfortunate that they didn't have something that was actually relatively insightful to run in its place. i'm not saying they shouldn't have been allowed to run it, that's at their discretion, really, but i would not mind if the cartoonist and whoever accepted it for print in the newspaper both received a face full of glass because they are bigoted and clueless. this cartoon was made simply to insult a huge group of people. and to people who say that it's just a cartoon, look at the rest of the media as well -- muslims are sick of seeing their people portrayed these ways. anybody remember team america? i do not really understand why people would be so furious with the countries of norway and denmark as a whole, though. |
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i think these cartoons in the papers are always really bad like you think: o, i get it.. so? |
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theres an easy solutions, NEWSPAPERS, STOP RUNNING STUPID CARTOONS if you don't have something to say, don't say anything! |
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A crowd of several hundred demonstrated outside the Danish Embassy in Knightsbridge, with protesters repeatedly shouting: “UK you must pray, 7/7 is on its way.” and.. In demonstrations in the West Bank and Gaza yesterday a preacher told 9,000 worshippers at one mosque: “We will not accept less than severing the heads of those responsible.” |
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Guess what! If you grow up with bombs everywhere and people getting blown to shit and getting killed and this, it becomes pretty normal! |
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there's no way to justify senseless murder. if you disagree with someone, you should kill them? ridiculous. |
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so what should the west do now? |
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an explanation is not an excuse, i never "justified" anything. whatever, you and everyone else are right, these ridiculous people are just violent savages |
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Go see Munich jk |
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right, i see where i said that, sure. it was in the very same sentence when i said we should invade iraq. |
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i interpreted the cartoon differently than you. i saw it as depicting the islamic faith as a time bomb of sorts. i don't see it having to do with race at all. at any rate, this is a much more complex issue than it first appeared. geez |
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ha, that's why i asked my question yes, it's easy to see, for me, that the picture should be able to be publicized, but how the hell are we going to explain that to those crazy muslims? |
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this is where we run into trouble, because i think it may just come down to two opposed cultures not getting along and there may not be an answer. |
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except of course, that there are a lot of political and legal aspects to this as well... one thing is for sure, though - you can't have people getting killed over it. |
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well, young r40, there's always time in 3 generations things might be better maybe not, but one should not worry too much, i tell myself im a history student, so i know however, one (me at least) cannot look at life as if it's just history being written, life is more important to a person then history, which is just text in a book i hope i made sense |
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hahah... thanks, big |
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there's one more with mohammed with guns and stuff I think... the pictures were meant to display him as a terrorist. I mostly agree with Mimi. |
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