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i don't see much purpose in posting the pictures too. i don't see purpose in blaming whole countries such as denmark or norway either... there is lots of over generalization going on here. some years ago some extremists burned the icelandi flag along with the american one...they thought it was the british flag. i think this demonstrates which muslims are protesting with violence. |
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no! the newsreader wants to know what the fuss is about (and see it's dumb cause it's not that shocking) |
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in denmark its getting very nasty right now, a lot of rightwing people attacking muslims and doing all kinds of stuff to encourage a war. people here are tired of this, the drawings where posted in september.. thats a long time ago. damn i hate this case. its so nasty. by the way, i must compliment the most of you, you seem to have a good and fair opinion about this case. |
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instead of causing further aggrevation, these newspapers should simply have reported that the muslims got upset over drawings depicting Mohammed as a terrorist with bombs and guns. What they have done now is quite simply silly and nothing but a provocation. |
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are rightwing people attacking muslims?! what the hell for? |
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because they are stupid fucks. |
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its these danish racist from this union called Danish Front. they've attacked some in copenhagen. |
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i want to see all the drawings, i've just seen the one posted here i don't laugh off my balls about it but i still think it's kinda right on |
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assholes. have they given any reasons? like, are they saying "we should kill all these people before they kill us" or something? |
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they're just basic racists looking for an excuse. the drawings can be viewed here: www.nihilist.dk |
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I just saw on the news that the danish embassy in Syria has been set on fire. You'd have thought that at some point since september a few of them would have thought "hang on, this is just a cartoon. aren't we over-reacting just a tad?". Instead they all seem to have thought "if we get really really angry and kill people, burn buildings and make life miserable for anyone who isn't us they'll become sympathetic to our way of life and we will have respect. yeah that'll work". It's no wonder there's racism really. |
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i agree. |
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"Papers shouldn't have to defend their right for freedom of speech. If it's bad jokes it's just that, bad jokes" someone said i guess it wouldn't hurt to explain the idea behind freedom of speech though (to the muslim countries as well as apologetic westerners) |
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humm, why though is it freedom of speech to say negative things about muslims but if you say them about the jews its anti-semitic? like, say i take some jew prophet or whatever and i draw pictures of him with nuclear weapons and bags of money? is that okay? probably not a very nice thing to draw either way. and for sure, not suitable for a newspaper. it isn't just the cartoon that is upsetting them, it's the cartoon on top of loads of other miserable rotten stuff. |
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you say things that make sense. |
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the reason i have strong opinions about this also is because i fear people wanting to come to an agreement and so the extremists get their way. like remember eta represents an opinion not even shared by the majority of basque country however as i said, maybe we should come to some agreement if the majority of muslims feel this way? (because understanding/ explaining isn't really going to work) |
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"Whoever defames our prophet should be executed," said Ismail Hassan, 37, a tailor who marched through the pouring rain along with hundreds of others in the West Bank city of Ramallah. "Bin Laden our beloved, Denmark must be blown up," protesters in Ramallah chanted. An imam at the Omari Mosque in Gaza City told 9,000 worshippers that those behind them should have their heads cut off. "If they want a war of religions, we are ready," Hassan Sharaf, an imam in Nablus, said in his sermon. Is that how Jews react to, say, a cartoon of Moses? |
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someone argued these kind of drawing are made in the arabic press for me the holocaust exempts the jews a bit, also it's dangerous because alot of muslims hate israel. i guess i would like it if (not too harsh, just like the picture posted here of mohammed) jokes could be made about jew people: not being able to do this doesn't mean this is right and we shouldn't make jokes about muslim believes |
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I think it's safe to say that this is more than a cartoon at this point. |
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it's cultures clashing |
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Ya, but they have bombs n shit! : O |
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I wasn't really talking about the Muslim reaction with that post, but...To one cartoon? I doubt the reaction would be so strong if the cartoon was about the Jews, but it seems to me that the Jews aren't really in the same position (socially? economically?) as the Muslims at this place in time -- what I mean is that the Muslims are being kicked while they're down, over and over. |
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nuke even |
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i think qrter, mimi, et al are mostly right. we are just sitting back and theorizing while people in the middle east are perhaps living under horrible conditions (certainly in iraq) and this may just be the last insult to injury. they have a right to be outraged. if it was any other group of people, they would have the right to be outraged as well and protest peacefully. i think they view this as a case where you could ethically kill someone for a crime. we have that in western cultures - capitol punishment. i think that part of the reason this is hard for us to understand is that we probably wouldn't kill someone for insulting our religion. well, different culture. i don't see it as a far cry from what we would do, but i still don't see any justification for it. in my opinion, there is no cause for the death penalty under any circumstances. the burning of the embassy is totally wrong and so would be punishing anyone who speaks out against any institution. if the muslims are mad about the cartoon, that's fine, but tough shit, basically. there are better ways they can make their anger known. |
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Have you seen "Paradise Now"? (about Palestinians) |
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no |
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yes there's some good arguments being made for the other side the current ayatollah (or was it just some imam) said: this wouldn't have happened if the fatwa on rushdi had been carried out even though it's someone elses culture i think we should make a point to them and not give in to violence threats (paradise now has been nominated for an oscar and is made by a dutch/palestine dude) |
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well time for me to reply here. I'm originally from Iran. but I live in belgium. I'm NOT muslim and neither are my parents. I have mixed feelings about all of this. the cartoon was really bad. it was just not funny. it didn't have a subtle message or didn't say anything special. it was just portraying muslims as terrorists. that's it. it would be the same if they would draw a black person robbing a bank or something. it's a racistic cartoon. I really HATE the reaction of the muslims all over the world screaming blood and murder. the cartoon was a trap. and they fell right into it. the protesting, flag burning muslims all over the world are a bunch of hypocrits. they make mocking cartoons about the west themselves and they also always talk about how bad the western people are etc... however they have never mocked jezus I believe. but christianity itself has been mocked. is that a difference? well, I dunno. I asked my mother about her opinion and she thinks they are overreacting. BUT she does understand why they react like that. it's simply because they have been raised that way. mohammed is just so sacred for them they simply cannot understand it's a "joke" no matter how bad it is. so to sum up. the cartoon is awful and so is the reaction of the muslim world. |
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Oh I agree that there are enormous socioeconomic inequities and the comparison isn't perfect. I'll be the first to say that most arabs in the middle east have been mistreated, both by American leaders and by their own leaders who have been either complicit with American imperialism (up until they've become inconvenient like Saddam) or actually put in place by it (the Shah, etc.). Here's the thing: Western imperialism (now mainly America) has been strip-mining less socially, technologically and economically advantaged countries for hundreds of years. The difference now is that they've pushed a society that is basically a bunch of Klingons to the breaking point, while at the same time allowing them to immigrate into western countries and importing an essential resource from them. So you have these people, who like Klingons will kill and die at the drop of a hat to preserve their honor, interacting with societies and people who are simply alien to that mind-set and are used to expressing themselves in a milieu where the expected response to speech is more speech, rather than decapitation. You should read that book, The End of Faith. He does a great job explaining how the beliefs of Islam are essentially incompatible with modern western societies, irrespective of political and socioeconomic factors. |
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fuck it, i don't want a war |
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hah yea i trap: the point of the cartoon posted here is i think muslim are hot headed my two cents on the jesus portraying thing: (unlike the bible) the koran differentiates between non believers or people with a wrong religion and the christians (and jewish i think). the latter are better because they partly have the same believes |
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Even if you are not christian, think about a muslim newspaper publishing cartoons of jesus having a blow job by his mum while smoking crack and telling "IDM sucks". Would u be happy ? |
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the book looks interesting! i'll read it -- thanks for the recommend. |
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so i heard that the classic 'clash of civilisations' by huntington is in fact shit, with all the differentations in cultural groups is this true? |
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this is a bit besides the point, but.. what.. do you do? also, do you make music? |
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If they don't like the things that a free culture provides (like freedom of speech) then maybe they should move out at stop sponging off their host country. |
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Yeah, but it wasn't a pic of Muhammed blowing anyone. Muslims are the only ones who want to behead someone over a cartoon. People have been desicrating Jesus for ages and no one cares. Remember the Christ in a jar of Piss art piece? There was like a couple of protests over funding and that's it. The most wanted Muslim is a mass murderer and the most wanted Westerner is a cartoonist. Puts things in perspective. |
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um, yeahhhh............ well an attitude like that is no different from those of muslims wanting another terrorist attack on europe. most muslims are insulted but do not want revenge for it [at least the ones i speak to] this is a perfect example of what i was going on about before - growing ignorance and intolerance, on both "sides". |
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it's not a cartoon. |
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I think they are overreacting. Which is a trait they seem exhibit for many things. I watch and read the same news as everyone else. Yes, I realise there are peaceful Muslims. Or according to Bin Laden, infadels, but they've been pretty quiet the last 4 years. |
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I wouldn't care personally, because I don't subscribe the the sort of religious dogma that demands me to retaliate with violence. But, I see what you're saying. These strips were intended to insult islamic beliefs, and a reaction isn't totally unexpected. It's just a shame that the reaction is so extremely violent. It's horrible that such intolerance is so often engrained in religious teachings. I mean, people should have the right to believe in whatever they desire. It's when those beliefs start infringing on the rights of others to believe and speak how they desire than shit starts going wrong. |
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Well if a religion is incompatible with the rest of the modern world, isn't it safe to say that it's no longer irrelevant and thus you need a new religion? |
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on a side note, almost every R.E textbook ay my school had a picture of jesus or the virgin mary etc... with comical genitalia drawn all over them. |
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theres one thing i find kinda funny. it might be well known, but then again, theres not too much attention drawn to it. a common viewpoint in europe is, that there is not "one truth". this viewpoint allows to accept a plurality of opinions and viewpoints. the other day i was speaking to that european girl. she held "there is no reality, but the reality language and culture constitutes". i said "i dont know, man" and left it to that. but after we had parted i thought about it. the sentence "there is no reality" or "there is no reality besides xy" is self-contradictory. "there is no reality" means the same as "it is true, that there is no reality", right? every statement you make presupposes reality. and that is a definite reality. otherwise the sentence "there is no reality" would mean the same as "there is a reality" and so on. what do i conclude? even if you claim you dont believe that there is not "one truth", you do. the one truth is "that what people believe to be truth is not actually the truth, but another thing (a sub-truth, individual truth or something)". alrite, fuckers? |
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have you ever played with lego welt |
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There is no spoon |
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He's calling us fuckers! Bomb him! |
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What really angers me is some peoples reactions - 'protesters' in london etc. bandishing banners like '7/7 will happen again' and 'behead those who slander islam' etc... how can slander not be tolerable and decapitation be sweet as??? its funny cos it kinda underlines the point the cartoons made; that terrorists (or would be) are using religion to justify it, when thats bullshit. Mohammed has been depicted before, and as someone else pointed out he is a prophet according to the most popular religions. |
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you're interpreting "there is no reality" a bit strict. anyway, what she's saying seems to be a bit like the existentialist view where you create your own reality (this is a chair, not just wood and metal, etc...) also, I doubt you'd find anyone ready to deny that reality exists.. even the hardest skeptics wouldn't deny reality... they'd just deny that we have direct access to it, which means that even though that chick said "there is no reality," for the very same reason you mentioned, there's no way she could actually have believed that in the strictest sense. |
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now, back on topic.. it seems there's an increasing amount of right-wing extremists here in norway too making death threats to muslims.. even those that are trying to make people calm down and who are trying to get the leaders of the states to talk while using their connections to calm down muslims all over the world by explaining the situation to them. As of yet, all Imams I've seen making public statements here in the country are telling people to calm down and that they will talk to other Imams in other countries, and.. well, they're acting quite calm as opposed to what people may think, and yet they recieve hundreds of death threats and people are starting to get violent (a muslim was stabbed in the neck by two drunk assholes last night. he survived, but god fucking damn, how can people be so stupid?!?) |
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