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 (nobody)...and 285 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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i'm pro-choice, definately. lots of reasons, all of which i think people have stated, or i dont know how to express |
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i took all day to think about my reply, because your last post confused me uviol. Mostly because i don't disagree with it ;-) Actually I admire people that decide to keep their baby and take responsibility for their actions. And I think if I would ever come in such a situation myself, and had to make such a tough decision... i would probably lean more towards keeping the baby instead of having it aborted... BUT... that is just my personal opinion, and I still do believe everyone should be allowed to decide for themselves. So I would have to say that I am still pro-choice. I can understand if other people (for whatever reasons) do not want a baby to be born... and i feel they should be allowed the choice not to have it. (i mean the opposite of pro-choice is probably that you feel abortion should be forbidden, or...?). Even though I personally would not like it, i believe very strongly people should decide for themselves. Imo it is just wrong to an woman with an unwanted pregnancy "we don't care how you feel about it, you must have the baby anyway!" You just can't do that... again imho :-) |
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I think when a woman consents to having sexual relations she should realize there is a possibility for conception, even if protection is used. Being that as the case, I think she has already made her choice. Also there is always adoption if the woman can't afford to raise the child. Not wanting to deal with carrying it to term is no reason to end its life. One argument that is often brought up is this idea that, because a fetus is not conscious it is not human but only a potential human and therefore has no rights of its own. People take action on potentiality all of the time. Many civil cases are based around the loss of potential income. For instance if someone sends a bunch of letters to people really slagging company x, company x can sue for losses based on potential profit they may have lossed. The RIAA blames p2p networks for cd sale drops because of the potential sales of those cds to customers who are d/l the songs instead ... (cont.) |
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After a baby has been born, can I smash it's fingers just because it cannot use them for anything yet? The child only has the potential and probability to use them but has not developed those skills yet. It can only move them around, but it could do that in the womb as well when it was supposedly not yet a person. I think that to abort the development of a child that has been conceived is the same as murder. |
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choice. choice. choice. its all about options, thats what makes this the "free" world, right? ;) although i would never choose abortion myself, i repect the decision a woman will make. |
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So what makes this issue any different than anything else? I can choose not to pay taxes, or kill my neighbor, but society will punish me for doing so. However I still have the choice. I believe, however, that our laws should match our ethics, and by saying making abortion legal we are saying that it is a morally just thing for us to do. I do not believe it to be a morally just thing for us to do. Then the is the idea that woman are going to have it done in back alleys and that is dangerous so we need to make it legal so it can be done in clinics where it is safe. If that is the case lets set up a whore house on every block where the government makes sure the prostitutes are tested for STDs. Let's create heroin clinics where we can make sure that no one gets a lethal dose and that nothing is cut. Let's allow bank robbers to sign up for free tazers so that they don't kill anyone in the process of robbing a bank. In fact lets supply all of our nations criminals with non lethal weapons. |
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They have heroin clinics for addicts to shoot up in Canada... or at least one that I heard of |
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But as a libertarian, yes, I think all drugs should be legal, abortian should be legal, prostitution should be legal. Get government OUT of other people's business. |
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I support methadone clinics, but not heroin clinics |
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I don't support either clinic, unless they want to pay for it. |
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As a christian I believe that people are totally depraved, and that government is ordained because people will not do the right thing on their own without guidance .. most of the time anyway. Without government we would have chaos and anarchy. There has to be standards of ethics, laws, and accountability. |
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Yeah, of course there has to be accountability, whichi is my whole point. |
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whether one is a christian or not, they have to at least admit to there being good and evil. Many people today believe in moral relativism, the idea that there is no absolute good and evil. If this is the case, that same person would have no justification going to the authorities after I blew up their house, or stole their car. I have done nothing wrong because there is no such thing as wrong. Just a random stream of events. This person may choose to get revenge, but never seek justice. What is justice? Nothing would be just because nothing is unjust. |
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i know what your getting at. where will the line be made? who knows... but this line concerning abortion has already been crossed... |
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That good and evil are human constructs does not prevent us from living by them, just as we can build a house measuring in meters and centimeters even though those standards of measurement are perfectly artificial. All we know is what we've learned from the history we can remember, and the fact that this wisdom was not handed down to us by some absolute authority is no reason to discard it. Christians must live very close to nihilism because it seems to be the only alternative they can think of. |
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i agree with you, of course, but i think my approach is just different. see... for me, i KNOW theyre never gonna do the right thing, so i just say... well, then they reap what they sow. those babies go to heaven, which is great. they never have to know the misery of this life on earth. my concern is more for the people who are commiting this act. it's truly horrible, but i dont see that itll ever change. in a world where there are so many other things wrong, what makes me think theyll ever go back? nothing. and i think thats the thing. its never gonna change for the better. sure, we try. but as humans, as a whole, we're doomed to failure. because our society and many other nations in the world right now just flat out don't care. its barbaric. people like bush claim to be christian. i fail to see how. and then people like greg proops go and cut us down on national tv, cuz theyre too dumb to see that what christianity IS and how people live up to it is just as bad as everyone else. why?????? because we're human too. we're not God. |
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that was to glasse, btw |
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making my thought clear, i missed some punctuation... "cuz theyre too dumb to see what christianity really IS, and that how people live up to it is just as bad as everyone else" |
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i think abortion should be legal.... i think alot of things the goverment tries to stop should be legal... on the other hand i think it's morally wrong since birth control is so easy to get and use properly...... this partial birth nonsense was insane though i suport that being banned...womens health rights or no....we're supposed to be civilized and cracking baby's skulls open is no way to go....even if some women may die in child birth....mabey that sounds harsh and as a man i have no right to say that but thats what I believe....anyways i guess i'm for abortation rights....but i don't like the term pro-choice |
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So then is the only reason for one to do something good over something bad is because either a) in their subjective paradigm it is what is right to them or b) the majority of society has decided what is good and can force them to do it and/or punish them if they choose not to. Are good and evil then defined by a majority vote? Were orgies and gladiator games morally right for Rome because the majority supported them? What about slavery? The Spanish conquests? |
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i actually believe that drugs and whores should be legal...thats why i'm a libertarian....but thats a whole other discussion... i'm bassically agianst goverment interfernce with out lives....(talking about the us here...other contries have different laws i know) |
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Tibbar yea I know that we are headed down that road. I think that makes it important now more than ever to be an advocate though. Even if you can't stop the whole ship, even a couple people who change makes it worth it. |
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personally, i think youre butting your head against a wall. if God itself has said he will giv emen over to their sick pleasures, how can you expect more? have can you have standards higher than God's for men. this time is critical, i keep saying this to you. i know this sounds liek im coming against you, but im not. im just saying, dont expect it to change. of course its bad, but... i guess it's more personal for some than others. thats probably a lack of empathy on my part, but im not so sure. |
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of course abortion is immoral. i know people who have had them though and i respect their decision |
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if your a catholic you beleive that unbaptized babies go to limbo... ps. does anyone remember that ninja turtles episode where they ended up in limbo |
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yes its totally personal.. and its not like an easy way out either |
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btw, im not against activism, let me make it clear... but you sometimes (sometimes) seem to make it sound like you expect everyone to have a change of heart, which they wont. it IS worth it to reach out to the few who WILL listen though. just to be clear. |
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this had nothing specific to do with christianity either. no faiths condone abortion |
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well, catholicism is rarely christian-based, so i dont doubt they think something lame like that. |
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The bible is pretty much silent on the fate of children who were either unborn or too young to be held accoutable when they died. I guess one shouldn't speak loudly when scripture is mostly silent. However by appealing to the nature of God we know that He is mercyful and just, so I personally believe that they never knew wrong and would not be held accountable. |
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"catholicism is rarely christian-based" ...is it just me, or did that make no sense? |
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Tibbar: I realize that I can't change anyones heart, but I believe that God does work through people and that He may change a heart through something someone says or does etc. |
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dude, its not silent. "the innocents", dude. who do you think "the innocents" refers to? obviously something of this category. |
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lol... i still have the tourist pamphlet from when i went to pugatory last year :D |
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map: if you trace the catholic lineage, and inspect its doctrines by the bible, youll see that it couldnt be farther from chrisitanity. just cuz they have a cross on the wall, is no reason to take them at face value. |
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mappatazee: protestants/evangelicals believe in sola scriptura, that is that scripture alone is inspired and that doctrines should be based on that. in contrast the catholic church believes that the pontif is as inspired as scripture and that his doctrines can be equivalent with scripture. this is part of what the reformation was about. |
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so you have the catholic church adding things like purgatory, mary's near divinity, prayers to saints etc etc |
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which wouldnt be so bad, if it werent for the fact that the bible is clearly against ALL that stuff |
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That being said I believe that a catholic can be saved through faith in Christ, but that it would be in spite of, rather than because of many official doctrines of the church. |
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this is interesting. ive been needing to hear and educated (and tolerant!) comparison of the catholic and protestant faiths. all i hear from some people is that the anglican church is responsible for so much evil, which makes no sense to me at all! |
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Any religion is bad; protestant, jewish, catholic, hindu, islam, etc. |
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get yer head out of the sand! |
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They all try to tell people how to behave; they all enslave people to make a broader analogy, and that's what they are, systems of control and guidance. People should think for themselves |
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hehehehehehe... and the fact that we acknowledge that no one can ever live up to it & that we all fall short of these beliefs is our way of being oppressive and ungiving, right? |
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you cant control someone by forcing them to do somethign they can never do. |
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Yeah, it's teaching you hate yourself, to feel imperfect, to accept suffering above all else. |
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no, its teaching to forgive. big difference. and we all are imperfect, unless you've got a false ego. |
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Not really to hate yourself, but to accept and learn how to deal with your duality. |
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and dude, yeah... accept suffering. its life, whereve YOU been. |
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Yeah, suffering exists, but it can be overcome, but christianity just teaches to be penetant, and you'll be rewarded in your "next life" which, heh... |
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