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 (nobody)...and 108 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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Ok.. I think I'll stick to the matrix 3 for now, then. I'll probably order it in a while... as I HAVE (as opposed to what one may believe from my posts here) tried scratching and beatmixing before, I just haven't gotten into the technical terms yet. So.. I will probably be able to give a small feedback-ish thing of the matrix once I've tried it.. for future reference... Have you ordered the ortofon scratch-cartridge yet, Ceri? |
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Nope, still saving for that... Got a few more records to buy first. I'm having doubts about it though, I may go for the Shure as they're cheaper and probably slightly better for use on Technics (if I use them to play out). I'll probably wait till I have the cash to get the Shures and see if I can bear to wait till I have enough for the Ortofons. My existing needles are getting pretty bad. I could role back to my Stanton 500s, but they're hardly new either. |
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hmm. well. I'll get the ortofons anyway, so I'll tell you if they are worth it (I'm kind of audiophile (or whatever they may call it), so I've got an ear for good sound...). I'll test it for regular playback on a hifi setup, and compare to another, regular vinylplayer with a good needle. |
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Cheers :) |
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ah. the turntable finally arrived (funfunfun!). I'll get the ortofon the 31st. Is there some way of judging how the weight should be set? I don't want it to skip when scratching (which, by the reviews, is pretty hard to do with the technics/ortofon combo anyway...), nor do I want it to cause unneccessary tear to the records while scratching... (I'll set it lighter for just listening...) and.. btw: what is "anti-skating control" and "back-queing"? |
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Mount the stylus and headshell, etc on the tonearm. Wind the weight at the back of the tonearm to a point where the tonearm is in equlibrium, i.e. the thing floats. Move the bit of the weight with the numbers on it so that the zero is at the top. Now wind it so the weight moves with the numbers, and set it to the desired weight in grams. The tech spec with the stylus should say the recommended weight to use. Hope that makes sense. The anti-skate is an adjustment to the tonearm, where it pulls it towards the edge of the record slightly, since it has a natural tendancy to move towards the centre. You can use antiskate settings to compensate for this, but its really just a 'set and forget' sort of thing. It might come in handy if you have a skippy old record or something. Back queing?? Dunno, doesn't sound like a feature of a deck, more like something a dj does when using it? Its probably something obvious like moving the record backwards and forwards over a cue point in anticipation of letting it go on a beat?? |
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I agree with everything Dave says in this post, similarly I dunno what back queing is either, I've seen it refered to elsewhere, so maybe it's another name for something else (perhaps doing looping a section by rewinding the record a bar or two whilst another copy plays the looped area?). Re: Setting the weight of the tonearm for scratching. It can be tempting to set it higher rather than lower (in terms of the amount of force applied) when you start out, to stop it from skipping. I'd advise against this. If you make it light and easy to skip, you'll naturally improve your light handedness through neccessity. That way, when it comes to a situation where you really don't want it to skip (say youy're competing, or showing off to friends/whatever) you still have the option of adding a bit of weight to almost guarantee you won't skip it. One of my mates has never bothered to do this and he is overly heavy handed when scratching, so it skips a lot. The other problem with this is that to compensate, people apply far too much weight and it really does affect the sound quality. One guy I saw at the local DMC heats reported the turntable as broken due to the huge amount of feedback coming through on a deck that was queued up and faded in, but not playing. It was actually just his gain turned up too high and too much downward force on the stylus. |
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Yeah, you don't need tons of pressure. In fact the relationship between pressure and non skipping is not linear. If I double the pressure, it doesn't make it skip half as much, but it also eats up both vinyl and needles much quicker. I generally use 3.5 grams for scratching and 2.5 for listening. although bear in mind my decks are more prone to skip than 1210s/pdxs due to their cheaper price (gunna upgrade soon:) you can listen with less than 2.5 grams pressure, but with some old vinyl you may get a skip, so I use 2.5 grams because I sample a lot of old records like 70s funk breaks into the akai. |
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ok. thanks. and i think back-queing may have something to do with that "pause" stick (the one that lifts the arm up...). I think it is referred to as the cue-stick or something like that in the manual. I know about that "looping" thing with two records, and that's beatjuggling, I think. I may be wrong though, 'cause I only know words for this in norwegian (which is why I ask so many questions which may seem COMPLETELY newbie (I am a newbie, but I have tried some scratching and beatmixing before (I managed a beatmix with two records at different bpm's, so I had to pitch...)). For instance, I would call the entire headshell/cartridge/stylus -area for "nål." btw: what IS the difference between a stylus and a pickup? is pickup a fancy word for stylus? or does pickup incorporate the entire cartridge/stylus-area? |
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I've only heard "pickup" used in relation to amps/guitars, not turntables. I've checked in "How to DJ: properly" and they mention back cueing. It is just another name for looping a record using two copies and rewinding them alternately. Bit of a misleading term as like you said, it suggests "cueing" using the tone arm (whereas in reality you're just manipulating the vinyl). "Beat Juggling" is generally used as an umbrella term for a whole range of rhythm manipulations including: looping two records, cutting between two different records very fast to create a new rhythm, fancy tricks like "fills" and "tripling", using one or two decks as drum (say, a kick and snare on one and a stab/hit and cymbal on the other; this is called "beat chopping"). |
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ok. I've started noticing what equipment dj's and stuff on music videos and tv are using, and almost all of them use Technics + some ortofon cartridge... I'm becoming more confident in the ortofons now. Also, Ralph Myerz (who I know a bit) is going to recommend me some mixer, and I guess I'll stick with the one he says in the end. |
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I'd be tearing my hair out with frustration at having a turntable, but no carts/mixer :) |
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haha! yeah, but I've learned to be patient.. I ALWAYS have exactly-not-enough-money. |
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I would of waited till I could afford to buy the lot in one go, maybe get a reduction in price that way, too. |
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hehe.. yeah, but the problem is that I would probably spend all the money then... I have to buy as soon as I have the amount, or else, I won't have the amount again. but about slipmats.. they don't cost much, and I see you discussed them on the previous page.. there WAS a slipmat in the pack with the turntable, but I'm guessing that's shit... I can't find anything conclusive in that discussion back there, so could you just recommend one? |
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Bundled slipmats are usually a bit weak (for scratching). The rubber mats that usually come with Technics are only really any use for listening or "weight training" (improving hand strength for scratching). Get a pair of Thud Rumble's Butter Rugs (V2.0). If you want Technics branded ones to match your 'tables, go for Technics Speed mats. |
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ok. thanks. |
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damn.. I have one more question about this.. (why do I say thanks and "end" it before I'm done?!). That huge, heavy rubber-mat that came with it (it says it is a turntable mat)... should that stay on when I get the real slipmat?! |
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Nope, you take that off and put the slipmat on instead. |
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ok. I was just wondering, 'cause I saw some slipmats which were really thin (they were nothing more than two millimetres, and they were made of something that looked like the stuff in popfilters or in front of speakers, only "lighter" that would make the pin in the centre of the platter really high, plus the stuff could get caught in those two holes in the platter (the ones used for lifting the platter off when moving it...) |
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Perhaps those very thin slipmats you mentioned were "Flying Carpets" (which do need another slipmat on top) or, if they were a custom job, most likely circles cut from the stuff from the inside of record sleeves. |
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possibly.. these were numark ones.. it said numark on them... they were really slippery.. i don't think the record nor the platter stuck to them, actually... so.. if I buy a thin slipmat, you'd recommend keeping the rubber-thingie under it? |
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No, even if it is very thin, don't have the rubber thing on it. All slip matts look thin compared to the rubber matt :) If you want to make sure, post a link to the slipmatts and I'll check it out. |
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i'll try and find it... I'm just worried about dust and stuff going into the holes you use for lifting the platter... |
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Even if the slip mats were porous enough to let dust through (they probably won't be, no matter how thin they are), it shouldn't be a problem- you should cover your setup if you're going to leave it for any length of time. I don't have lids on my turntables, so I just have a dust cloth I drape over the whole setup whenever I've finished playing. Also, bear in mind, Technics can be used for years in dirty, smokey environments etc. - a bit of dust won't hurt 'em :) |
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ok.. but it says I have to oil them occationally, thoug.. I know where and how, but WHEN?! how the fuck am I supposed to know when the turntable has played for 2000 rounds or whatever!? |
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and.. I've ordered the ortophons now, but... they'll probably take five weeks to get here (like the turntables did.. it seems the place I order from order from the manufacturer when someone order from them, so they don't really have anything in stock.. ever...) |
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(turntables = turntable.. i've only got one so far... (smiling face)) |
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I'd check with Dave about that... |
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well.. let's hope he checks by the post when he logs on, then. |
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Q. for Dave, but others are welcome to comment. I notice that Vestax seem to be focusing on their "normal" scratch mixers as opposed to both normal and samurai versions; last three announced scratch mixers = 05mk3 (just a revised 05), 007 (revised 07) and 05SL (05 with a built in sampler). I'd assumed that for most new scratch mixers they'd be bringing out both a Samurai and a "normal" version. However, now the Rane TM56 seems to be the new king of scratch mixers (and the Pioneer 707&909 are getting rave reviews too...) it looks like they're focusing on their normal mixers. You reckon they've resigned themselves to second place? Personally, I think their £100 price hike across the Samurai range has done them no favours- it just means it's "only" a couple hundred more for a Rane. Drunken Mastah; Don't worry about only having one. That's fine to start practicing scratching on. Just plug a CD player/the audio out of your pc in the other channel and have your beats on that. My only advise would be to switch the side the mixer is on every couple of weeks or else you'll become "one handed", which is a pain. When you do get a second deck, try using different configurations, left style (mixer to the left of both decks), right style, "normal", battle and L-style, which is left turntable in battle style, right turntable in normal- makes the start/stop button a lot easier to reach quickly from the mixer on technics. No need to do this on the latest numarks as they have a start/stop on both top and bottom, so you can keep them both in battle style. That's the one thing I want to become the norm on scratch oriented turntables. It lets you do thinks like fade in/out and start/stop at the same time with one hand. |
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a mixer w/ built-in sampler? strange... and.. what is "samurai" version? Rane TM56? how much is the normal price for it? and lastly: is there NO way of changing the audio-cables coming out from the technics? they seem a bit.. poorly isolated... |
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Yeah, that's one of the reasons I prefer Vestax... easily user replaceable. I don't know how to change them, I've used Techs in clubs etc. but I've never owned a pair or taken them apart. The mixer with sampler built in has just been shown at a music expo show, it probably won't be out for at least 4 months. Basically there's a growing trend amongst tablists for people to use samplers (foot pedal controlled ones, like guitarists use) to allow one guy, even on one deck, to do something more akin to what you'd need a team of DJs for. I'm not sure if it'll catch on, but personally, I think a sampler is more useful than built in FX when it comes to scratching. It'll let you do things like sample and loop some beat juggling you've done, then scratch over the top, whereas normally you'd have to scratch along to a pre recorded break/track. The samurai mixers are the premium versions of the "Classic" PMC-06, PMC-05 and PMC-07 mixers. Basically prettier faceplates (with slightly different artwork as well as colour), but the main thing is different curve settings (not just curve control, although you have that too); lets you set it to square wave, etc. as well as normal curves, faster cut in times, smoother faders and the main thing is the durability of the faders (digital rather than optical so they're not affected by smoke in clubs or even spilt liquids and they last for years as opposed to months of heavy use). Rane TTM-56 goes for about £615 (had a price cut recently) whereas the best full size vestax scratch mixer (PMC-07 Samurai version) goes for £895. Now, there are a few die hard vestax fans who have either had Vestax for so long that they don't like any other brand mixers (fave points of complaint re: rane seems to be the transform switches are too long and the output is too quiet... not exactly major flaws) or just genuinely prefer the 07 Pro D to the TTM56, but at the prices they're at, most people will opt for the Rane. I mean, the Rane is "only" £120 more than the Vestax PMC05 Pro |
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Ok. 'cause I've tried a vestax, and I liked the fact that the headphones had a crossfader that allowed me to do "test" scratches... I've tried one other mixer (the one that comes with the numark battle-pack), and the headphone-crossfader was "slow" (you can't "throw" it like the regular crossfader). the rane mixer, from the image I saw, seemed to have a "slow" headphone-fader as well... but even though a picture says more than a thousand words, I can't be sure... |
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Bump for Dave. |
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Ok, firstly, oil them when you feel you need to. Its like when do you get new needles, it depends on use, so if you feel the turntable isnt performing as well as it should, give it a bit of an oil. The same goes for xfaders, lube them when they get a bit stiff. Oiling is probably an annual thing, remember, they're very durable.(think like a tank) so once a year should be fine. I know people who NEVER do anything to them, and 10 years later theyre fine. You shouldn't need dust covers really. I started to use them, but after about a week I just took them off. Ive mounted my tables 'sideways' like a pro ;) and so I took off the hinge mounts on the back of the tables completely, since you can just place the lids on top if you aren't going to use them for a while, like holidays or something, as long as you don't knock them or something, theyre fine like that. You could dust them 3 or 4 times a year, and hoover the slipmats to get rid off all the deep dust in them. Vestax mixers....hmmm well. As I see it, they were really good, but now theyre not. If you look at it, they were the main people behind the whole curve adjust thingy and introduced ideas like hamster switches and long life faders. However once the ideas caught on, other manufacturers can produce their own variants. Even I could design a circuit to provide cut in adjustment, and curve adjustment, just using off the shelf components, and no CPU, so think what rane/pioneer can do. There is of course the feel of each brand which is slightly different, but that is easily overcome after a couple of weeks. Vestax have over estimated their market position, and charge too much for the samurai series. The rane mixers are expensive, but have more features than the equivalent vestax mixer. Numark have done a sampler in a mixer before. it was the kaos pad in a mixer (kaos pad has a sampler) and it wasn't a big hit. Vestax mixers are very good, but rane are better, and pioneer are great too. Its all down to price vs features not brand reputation a |
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anymore. hmm strange. I managed to use all 2048 characters but it chops it after 2041 characters. oh well. ceri: one handedness isnt that bad, I do it all the time, and only occasionally swap and its no big deal. If I had the choice, Id get either a rane, or a vestax. pioneer are for club djs still. theyre great mixers, but not for battles despite what people may say. you can get an 06A for 200quid now. the cheapest rane is the price of an 06D. If you think of that, my first mixer was just shy of 200quid and was crap, so vestax are gunna get new people hooked, then when their new range comes out they will get them then. I mean, samurai is blatantly an interim product. oh and complaints that the rane is too quiet is nonsense, its just the vestax offers tons of headroom, wheras the rane has a more normal amount. Ive never used a rane long enough to notice the transforms, although I never use them.ever. basically to sum up everything that ive said: vestax=wicked. rane=wicked. price=crap. both are good. the rest are poo :) (for scratching at least) |
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I've always been concious of trying to develop both hands as sometimes I'll want to scratch along to a track playing on the left deck and it's never as good as if the track is on the right. That said, I can lazer (perhaps because my hand is looser) and single deck beat juggle better on that right hand side. |
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how about crossfader size? the rane seems kind of short, but is that a problem? |
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btw: still waiting for the ortofons, but Ralph Myerz recommends them. what is the normal price for that pack with one extra stylus in UK? |
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I can't find that pack anywhere in the uk anymore... even the twin packs in a box with brush no longer seem to come with spare styli. Makes me a bit hesitant as I've read they wear out quicker than Shures. I nearly bought pack of them yesterday on a whim, but cancelled at the last minute. I've decided I can leave it a bit longer and wait till I'm back in work (in a couple more months) and can afford them. |
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strange.. at the music shop here and the ortofon homepage they can still be bought, so why doesn't the uk shops have them? but.. is that site you linked to for real? i mean.. the price for a set of two cartridges is the same as the price for ONE cartridge here in norway!!! |
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£120 for one cartridge?! You really should just order from somewhere that'll ship within the EU (if Norway is) or Worldwide. The site I linked to do, so you might want to consider getting it from them. I've dealt with them in the past and they're pretty good (if slightly expensive for most hardware, cartridges excluded). BTW, if you're still looking for a mixer, they have a couple of ex-demonstration Technics mixers for £249 each. They're the DMC competition mixers. Nice build quality, good EQs and V. fast cut in on the fader, but apparently the faders wear out a lot quicker than Vestax/Rane ones. |
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ya... I've been told not to buy technics mixers... just because of that fader thing.. plus there was some wiring wich could come out somewhere if you don't do shit right. Norway isn't in EU, so.. but if that site ships to scandinavia, I think I'll have to buy stuff from it... |
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"Ive never used a rane long enough to notice the transforms, although I never use them.ever." I've been trying to ween myself off them, because then of course you can do things like using the line ins as feedback loops (route secondry master out into them) or put a radio tuned to static/whatever on it. However, old habits die hard and after using them a lot (I had a house mixer for ages :) it's difficult not to instinctively do it. I'm using them less and less though. I've considered rotating them horizontally so that I won't use them out of laziness/through forgetfullness. Dave, maybe you can shed some light on the following phenomenon: Using one line channel as a feedback loop as described above (and boosting either the high or low gain on that channel) to get a tone, I can make it fluctuate using the crossfader. Even when it's in the "full volume on range" it still changes the pitch/waver by moving the fader back and forth slightly. Quite cool, but I was just wondering why it happens (it's a fairly constant tone when I've done it on other mixers- the crossfader just alters the pitch)... something to do with the digital crossfader? Also, making a feedback loop with the gain values centred just replicates the other channel- perfectly! Really odd as normally the distortion gets more and more in a very short space of time. |
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Refering to on most mixers: "the crossfader just alters the pitch" = The crossfader just alters the volume. |
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if it has a digital fader, it's probably like.. ah.. how to explain... you know when you have a stereo amplifier, and it has lots of lights on.. often, there's a "dim" button which can be used to turn off all the lights so that the electricity that goes to powering the lights doesn't interfer with the sound. It's probably the same thing.. the digital faders power-supply or magnet (if there's some sort of transformer) makes a low noise that is just enough to alter the pitch (as the feedback-loop is the sound of itself over itself, even the slightest change will make a difference). it's also a possibility that they know people are doing stuff like that, and have incorporated it in their mixer.. you never know. but at least, I know that having your microphone-wire close to a power-outlet sometimes can make noise on the recording, and that it doesn't take much to alter feedback. |
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hmm, sounds interesting. Ive never tried to loop the output back into a program/channel before, due to the fear of ear/speaker/house destruction due to high frequency wave resonance, superposition and eventual sonic tsunami effect. I will try it later on my 'analogue' 06, although I don't beleive it is to do with the digital fader. The digital fader doesn't use digital electronics on the signal path. The mixer doesn't use analogue to digital convertors (ADC) and DACS (digital to analogue convertors) at the input and outputs, like on a sampler or soundcard,etc. The digital refers to the crossfader control of the VCA (voltage controlled amplifier) ELECTRONIC THEORY TIME::::::: The simplest type of level control is a potentionmeter (pot) with the signal at one input, and ground (0 volts) at the other end. A wiper travels along the track between the two, to tap off a level between full and nothing. (This is at best unity gain. There is no amplification). By using an OPAMP, you can amplify the output. If you change the ratio of 2 resistors connected to the opamp, you can adjust the gain, so make one fixed, and the other a pot. (i.e gain/trim control on mixer) Now pots have a problem, you get dust and stuff on the track, and it crackles when you move it, I'm sure you've noticed that somewhere. However, if say a light dependant resistor is used inplace of the variable potentiometer, and this is positioned so a bulb or LED can shine on it, you can make it better. If you now use your pot to control the level of brightness from the LED, with a small capacitor added to even out ripples and crackles, you can get crackle free pots, even if they are dusty. (adding the capacitor in the audio line reduces frequency response, and causes problems). Now you can see, that the two circuits are electrically isolated, but what about the digital...? Well, I have 149 characters left, so its in my next post! |
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Ok, the digital part of the crossfader system involves a digital system to interpret where the crossfader is along its travel, and make the LED shine according to what the digital system is programmed to. On a normal opto coupled VCA, like on my 06, you can change the curve shape, but that can be done with analogue components (capacitors resistor,etc) On a digital fader, a chip decides that as the fader moves, it will make the LED shine bright, dull, bright, dull as the fader moves, which would make the OPAMP amplifier go loud/quiet/loud/quiet. But on a normal one, as you move the fader along, it would make the LED change from bright to dull in a linear way, and the curve control changes the linearity, but digital removes the linear relationship altogher, and uses the fader to control the digital logic which then decides what to do. I hope that kinda makes some sense, I work for an elctronics company, so this is simple stuff for me, but I hope you can get the point about the signal not being activly affected by the digital. The pitch shifting effect may be due to something like phase differences, but I doubt it. hmm bit of a mystery I will investigate. As for the loopback not causing distortion, well that shows why vestax mixers are great. Features on show are less than rane, but its under the bonnet, some things like the tons and tons of headroom and excellent amps which makes me like them.a lot. |
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As for the loopback not causing distortion, well that shows why vestax mixers are great. Features on show are less than rane, but its under the bonnet, some things like the tons and tons of headroom and excellent amps which makes me like them.a lot. Yep, it really does show off the high build quality. The downside is, I now take that for granted and other "decent" mixers feel poorly built when I play on them. re: the feedback loops, they seem to have some sort of limiter built into the amp as it's never speaker wreckingly high, just as if the master is turned up too loud, it doesn't seem to increase after a point. I suppose it's an intentional guard against such things when people accidentally wire them wrongly. I can get some nice effects filtering feedback on my PMC-270 then running it through the kaoss pad. Cheers for the fader explanation, I think I managed to follow most of it :) BTW, just picked up Needle Thrashers - Alpha and Hee-Haw Breaks. The former being good for beats, the latter for scratch sentences (probably the best I've used). |
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