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I know there's only room for one bellicose soul to make unsubstantiated and inflamatory comments so I´ll keep it short. Of course you are welcome to call yourself an artist, lots of people do. It doesn't mean you are one, being an artist is like having a nickname, you can't bestow the title upon yourself. Yes you have to be recognised as such. Yes a collection of Aphex Mp3s could be an album. Releasing my demo tracks and calling it an "album" is like uploading a txt file of my stream of unconcious bollocks and calling it a "book". It's embarrassing. The reason you find it hard to do the glitch thing is because you haven't come to that sound via your own route. Autechre, arrived at that sound after a long sonic journey, from doing tape cut ups, hip hop, ambient, all sorts. You just picked up the last thread and tried to run with it, ruinously. |
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None of the comments I have made in this topic have been unsubstantiated or particularly inflamatory. Stating that an a person needs to have the title of artist bestowed on them in some way is pretentious to say the least. You obviously haven't listened to a lot of the music on the board by virtue of the fact you are so quick to denigrate it. If you had bothered to take the time to listen and make points on a base of something other than ignorance I might take your comments more seriously. Also who said I find it hard to do the glitch thing? You haven't heard my stuff, so again you are in no position to comment. |
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I just wanted to skip to the pies :( |
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I'd call skink's ep's for ep, and I'd call skink an artist... I'd call every fucking member of this board an artist, 'cause everyone is involved in SOME creative process (be it the creation of words, music, images, thoughts, feelings, whathaveyou)! I look at it the other way around: there are few people who are NOT artitsts... |
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Seriously i haven't denigrated it, i genuinely like a lot of the muisc on here, and I have heard I'd say about 3 tracks i could imagine on commercial release. A lot of stuff though is "demo" quality, it's just not of a high enough standard, and to call a collection of demo tracks an album, well... I don't think people do themselves any favours calling themselves artists and saying they've released albums when neither is true. I am sure this subject has been done to death so I won't labour it anymore. I have heard your stuff, well, what you've posted here, you yourself said, i believe, it was just experimenting, and that's fine. You didn't say "This is my new experimental one track EP" and for that I am grateful. |
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haha, I don't even know why I am argueing...I would never refer to myself as an artist, I would never release a net album and when I have mentioned an EP I have always done it tongue in cheek because I would feel rediculous classing four tracks I have produced as an EP (it's just a handy way of saying 4 tracks though). But I don't see the harm in any of this terms, I think (and would hope) most people who post music here know that the prospect of having a physical release through a respected label is going to be nearly impossible. There are a couple of folks who I could see doing well and possibly getting hooked up (cockear being one of them) but by and large electronic music is fast turning into a hobbyist music form. |
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I kind of know what you mean. All I am saying is i would never go up to someone and say "Hi I'm an artist", or refer to myself as an "artist". And I fucking went to Art School and have every fucking right to ;) I might say I create music, I do painting, I draw a lot... but to say I am an artist... artist is a special term, if veryone who ever picked up a pen is an artist, if everyone who ever opened Frutiyloops is an artist, if everyone who took a blurry digital photograph of a tree is an artist... doesn't that cheapen the term "artist"? |
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SM Pennyworth's "Tolerable Cruelty" was one of the best IDM albums of 2003. Does the fact that it was "only" a collection of MP3s make it any less impressive? If he was on Warp/Mu/Rephlex/wherever people would buy it and it would be taken seriously. Sorry to sound like I'm kissing his arse, but it really is a fantastic release (I listen to it at least once a week) and to think that people write it off as "just another mp3 kid's work" is annoying. |
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It's only words. |
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re: physical release: it's not all that hard.. you don't really need a distribution deal, nor do you need a record-company.. all you need is a way to produce about 10 cds or vinyl eps that you hand out to local cd-stores, and just ask if they could put the cd on their shelves (it should look proper, though.. not some home-burnt thingie.. it doesn't cost too much to burn 10 professional cds). then, if someone decides they'd like to try this album, you're already on the way. doing gigs couldn't hurt either.. I don't really believe in labels... except for labels like one (all they do, is that they help the artists get in touch with mastering-studios, places that burn pro-cds, press vinyl, and so-forth... all for the love of music (Røyksopp and Ralph Myerz started out here)). |
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I am an artist in the drinking of the beer like |
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Which is why I said 'a physical release through a respected label' :D |
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I agree with you that it does my head in when people refer to themselves as artists though. Correct response for that is, "Oh you mean an artiste? Sorry, for a second there I was taking you seriously". Worst is when people (who have recieved no critical acclaim) refer to themselves as "just a humble artist". Wa-hey-hey, it's oxymoron central! :) |
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I agree with you totally. I have been a it nobbish, i admit. In conclusion I seriously hope everyone who deserves one gets a deal, remember that you have to work hard, not just on the music, but promoting yourselves, getting out there. And that means maybe posting your music up, if it's hidden on your HD who's going to know? Remember: YOU CAN DO IT! |
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No you are a pisshead until someone calls you an artist. |
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the term artist is already cheap. ANYONE can call themselves artists these days, so being an artist is nothing special... I usually say that I make music, and have never called myself an artist, but these two things are equivalent, 'cause a person who creates is an artist. |
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fuck labels! fuck midi! |
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I agree with dog belch that there is a BIG difference between someone like Autechre or Air who go around the world touring and make it their full-time occupation to create original records that have a measurable impact on pop culture, compared to the 10-a-penny Fruityloops users who now populate the internet. If you get hold of some software and start writing some computer tunes on it, and share them on the net, they're just demos. Call them what they are, they're just demos. Andy Warhol was right. |
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Again this whole have to be famous to be considered good doesn't sit well with me. The true pioneers of any art form are very rarely recognised. What is to say that Aphex wouldn't come here one day and hear an experiment by someone on the board then go off and make a similar track? The so called 'demo' then becomes a peice of art because an artist (which Aphex can legitimately be called) has made it...and because he has mass recognision his work is more valid than the 10-a-penny Fruityloops user? Anyone can pick up a pencil and draw...but talent is obvious, if not always rewarded. Anyone can open fruityloops or any other music making package and the same applies. |
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I agree with ecna on this. Saying that only a select few can be called artists, is the same as saying that only a select few members of the upper-class can really enjoy wine or classical music. David Hume wrote something on this matter; "On the standard of taste." In this essay, he claimed that only certain privelegied individuals (those of good breeding and upper class) were able to distinguish the true good things from the bad things. Ordinary people were only plebs when it came to appreciation of good things... in other words: everyone but the upper-class are filth. He also claimed that those pleasures the normal (middle- and lower-class) people actually COULD enjoy were not worth enjoying because the fact that we COULD enjoy it was proof that it wasn't good (this was later contested and proven quite wrong, as ANY high-society wanker would choose food over opera when hungy). Needless to say: David hume had lots of fucked-up thoughts. |
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Feel free to back me up with quotes whenever the mood takes you. |
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Anyone can pick up a pencil and draw... but taking the pencil into your hand, pushing it with one finger so it spins around your thumb then hitting it back the other way straight afterwards, now, that's talent. P.S. I can do this. |
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agree with most of your points, but i think that the main thing we're talking about here is how demo-makers at home with nothing but a laptop are now going online saying 'download my new album' and so on, and terming themselves 'artists'. i bet half of the big signed artists wouldn't even call themselves that. this doesn't mean that some demos are good, as some certainly are very good. but really, the way the music industry is going, it would probably be healthier for all parties if these demo-makers continued the good old time-honored tradition of sending their material to actual labels, rather than constantly and futile-ly plugging their free mp3's to an increasingly jaded audience. |
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maybe we aren't INTERESTED in having our music published? I do it mostly for hobby, and I would like to do a gig or two, plus I'm going to deliver a few cd's to the local cd-stores, but I don't really want to be signed and have to fuzz around with all that shit. I feel I should be entitled to call a carfully composed set of tracks an ep or album if I feel like it. |
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As I said, the hole referring to yourself routine as an artist is something I would never do but I still see no harm in the use of the term. Labels don't listen to everything that's sent. Also they seem to be increasingly releasing friends/old artists material and little else. It appears that the quality of the music matters less these days than your ability to network in the right circles, or by chance you get friendly with someone on a personal level who happens to be involved in the scene and can help. I do know different people take their music more seriously than others, even when the quality doesn't substantiate there ego. I also find it annoying at times. But I don't see the harm. |
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but who are you referring to? you can't really mean that you think most of the bigger 'electronica' creators are there just because they 'knew' someone? we're not talking about pop idol and ex-neighbours stars here, we're talking about music that was pretty much discovered through demos sent to labels. if you want to talk about what labels will ignore, yeah some labels don't listen to all demos received but you can put money on it that they pay even less attention to the hordes of online mp3 demos. |
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"Of course you are welcome to call yourself an artist, lots of people do. It doesn't mean you are one, being an artist is like having a nickname, you can't bestow the title upon yourself. Yes you have to be recognised as such." By who.... you?... don't make me laugh!! Just because an artists work means nothing to you, it doesn't mean everyone will have the same view. |
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That's exactly what I am saying...either friends or met while performing live...not demos sent to labels. Small labels may sign on the basis of demo CD's, large labels take artists off small labels. LFO - a live performance. Squarepusher - a live performance Luke Vibert - Friend of Richard D. James and/or Grant Mike P - Friend of Richard D. James and/or Grant Global Goon - Shared house with Richard D. James V Snares - Mike P signed him after finding an early release in a record shop. Jega - Friend of Mike P's? |
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It just so happens that all the artists I named are excellent and I am in no way saying the don't deserve to be signed (except V Snares) I was just making a point about the whole demo CD/tape/mindisc thing. |
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well the rephlex related stories are probably not typical of the way record companies work. granted there is a bit of that going on with certain circles, but for the most part you're looking at a genre with artists working from very seperate geographical and social backgrounds, who have only got signed after working away unknown on demo tapes for years. |
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You can't (or rather shouldn't) call yourself an artist in the same way you shouldn't call yourself a genius. There seems to be some confusion over whether you have to be famous to be an artist. I think of it like this, disregarding being signed or not, a true music artist will be famous to a degree by default, because if you were doing it seriously you'd be out playing live, getting yourself known, maybe pressing up your own discs and driving them round to shops yourself. Other people will hear of you, for good or bad, and it is for other people to say whether or not you're an artist. Sitting at home, uploading tracks that, i think a lot of people would admit themselves, you wouldn't release on an album, that aren't of a good enough quality production wise or whatever, does not, just does not make you a music artist. To be an artist, for the word to have any value, means you work at something beyond a certain measure of the amateur or hobbiest. Being an artist isn't a state of mind or an attitude. It's a job. |
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I think any relatively closed scene is the same way. Back in the day, the whole drum and bass scene was no different...tons of smaller labels all releasing friends work. It makes for quite a friendly atmosphere when a lot of the main artists know each other and are friendly. |
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amateur is a good word for distinction |
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yeah but doesn it make for great music? |
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what i mean is, yeah a friendly atmosphere between artists is all well and nice, but really we as the listeners want to know that the best music, the most original and enjoyable music, is getting out there, and not just music that is getting out through some 'connections'. i mean, the problem is obvious even in very small unkown record labels, you can hear one or two good stand-out artists but loads of mediochre ones that aren't as good as a lot of the demos out there. but if people waste their talents on free mp3 downloads, they're under a misguided hope that they'll be discovered that way, because in all likelihood they won't. |
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If people are posting MP3's in the hope of getting signed then I agree they are misguided. However, that wasn't what the original point of the thread was about. I think the insular nature of the drum and bass scene was actually what caused it to stagnate for a number of years. |
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agreed on both counts |
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Jazz. Jazz killed DnB. Jazz is killing off IDM. Everything gets to a certain level then it wants to be fucking Jazz. |
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haha. well that did happen to dnb, and it was integral to trip-hop. but i think 'idm' is generally devoid of jazz, being such a whiteboy artform. |
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what a silly semantic debate. artist? album? dog belch, you seem tethered to your rigid definitions. some people may pretentiously call themselves "artists," but some people create "art" without commercial expectations, and despite the fact that they do not treat their endeavors as a "job," they are artists nonetheless. if i play piano for my family's pleasure, am i not a musician? if i paint a portrait of your great uncle, am i not an artist? a good or bad artist, a genius, this people can debate. an album is a collection of something. pictures, demos, tracks, stamps. to use the word to describe such a collection is neither inappropriate or pretentious. |
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anyone who expects a career from electronic music is probably, but not certainly, delusional. |
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i think i'll start referring to my diary as my 'autobiography' then. |
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Please, call yourself an artist, say you've released 10 albums, whatever makes you happy. But DON'T YOU SEE that for the words to have any VALUE, it is for other people to say that you're an artist. An album, please, everyone knows what an album is, and it isn't a collection of fucking MP3 demos! I write, make music, paint, program, hell i do a bit of gardening. So by your reckoning i am a renaissance man on a par with Michealangelo and Da Vinci .... if I am not good enough to be an artist I will just devalue the term and then, bomp, i am an artist. Well so is everyone, everyone's an artist with a fucking 10 album back catalogue. I can't leave the house for tripping over artists. |
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"So by your reckoning i am a renaissance man on a par with Michealangelo and Da Vinci" you're too willing to put words in my mouth, and i suppose you'll keep doing that until i agree with you. you're confusing "artist" with all sorts of romantic associations regarding success, skill, good and bad. i think you should ask yourself why you are so fixated on "why people are wrong to call themselves artists." why do you care? how could you possibly get so worked up over something so petty? "devalue the term"? it's a pretty flexible term, i think it will survive! so if i say i'm a musician, will you attack me for claiming i'm as good as miles davis? who is the master who makes the grass green? people make music, and art, and all sorts of things, and it doesn't matter how many people consume those things, or recognize their work, or agree to this or that label. |
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It's not as hard as you'd think to get into making music professionally - If you're actually willing to devote as much time, energy and money to it as you would any other kind of career. DJ types usually seem the best at this - Go down a local studio, spend about £300 for a few days recording with an engineer - You get your DAT master - Press it onto a bunch of dub plates - Send them to all the big name DJ's, and before you know it, it's been played at a few events and 50,000 people have heard it. If it's any good you'll usually score a deal off that - And it is pretty typical to make about £1,000 for a dance 12", even now - And that goes towards building up your own studio - And there's kids making UK Garage tunes these days using NOTHING more than the Fruity Loops stock sounds! Scoring £1,000-2,000/per EP. Most successful electronic producers have come from dance music roots - It is a much easier way to get noticed and get a name for yourself - Autechre had the old hardcore 12" Cavity Job, RJ had Powerpill and started off on a hardcore label. I have never wanted to upload mp3's of my music, cos I only make it with the intention of sending off to labels - Making complete tunes doesn't make any sense to me - Left to my own devices I'd just make loops and things - The whole putting a track together with a beginning, middle & end doesn't come natural to me, and I don't get much out of it. I think the IDM scene gives you a false impression of how hard it is to get signed off demos - Just because there's so many thousands of demos floating around... I sent off my first CDR's to two pretty big electronic labels (Freerange and Ubiquity) and both of them listened to it in full and got back to me with tonnes of information and ideas within days of me posting them... Completely different experience to sending off to Warp or Rephlex I'm sure. |
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I apologise for seemingly putting words in your mouth. I am not worked up (but do feel free to say i am acting hysterically as a means of dismissing my point) but i do think it's an important, well not important, but interesting issue. I won't attack you for calling yourself a musician, if you have ability in that field above and beyond an amateur or student of music. Or is anyone who can whistle a musician? The people that will clamour loudest about having the right to be called an artist will be the amateur, the deluded, the wannabe, the arrogant and the talentless. If I see a thread where someone refers to themselves as an artist, to me, and probably just me as i am obsessed about it, it betrays a lack of humility, lack of judgement, self delusion and possible unemployable status. How can you criticise someone who regards themselves as an artist, they are an artist, therefore all they do is art. Untouchable. It's a psychological defence employed by amateurs that make poor music. I can guarantee of all the people on this board who's music i have liked, not one has had the ball crushing temerity to call themselvs an artist because they are probably confident enough to let the work stand up on it's own, rather than put a big flashing light over it that says "Work by an ARTIST". |
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Do you addresses for these laels you talk of? Would you e-mail them to me? : ) |
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To be honest i think a better term is musician... |
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not everyone who uses those terms is a victim of the pretentions you describe, db. not everyone shares your perception that anything called "art" is put on a pedestal, or that the term "art" necessarily implies some untouchable achievement. of course, the court of public opinion will have its say if it is asked to do so. DON'T YOU SEE in capital letters makes you seem pretty worked up. "amateur" and "professional" do not necessarily reflect skill level. maybe you can surf the net, demanding that people add "amateur" and "professional" as you see fit. |
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Hey guys, the neck of my jumper smells like bacon, I think I must have dropped some crisps on there earlier. Most enjoyable. |
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