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 (nobody)...and 259 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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Members 8025Messages 2613460 Today 3 Topics 127500 |
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melack? |
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what model are your headphones? |
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exactly! |
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Does monitor speakers make any sense? These I got sound to be sexing up the sound a lot more then the hi-fi speakers I had before (these monitor speakers being relatively flat too, Event is the brand). Maybe their denigned to let you hear everything. Which is not realistic at all. It's all relative anyway, I suppose, and you just need to listen with a lot of systems. |
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ok and i'll have to match it graphically by playing a sine out of speakers and record it with a calibration mic, with a parametric eq on the main mix? |
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yes, but that method would be always needed for the same reasons! the problem here is the room. or better, making a sound map of the room. |
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and you get that, you get over differences by aligning up devices (inverted process) not by changing room or devices. by use what you actually do have there, have always used |
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big has a point here, if you want to produce music thats not what you should do... anyway, if the only thing you want is to make your speakers sound the same as your headphones, yes, theorically thats what you should do : play the sine tones (if you can generate them via soundforge or similar better, not using the mp3 i linked) out of your speakers, catch the sound with the mic, adapt the speakers response to the graphic of your headphones. that should work i think. |
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of course new devices + standards = coolnessX10 but hey, thats not something one can aquire in a day or to, at least the reasons to do that. to invest time figuring shit up and to spend money over it, i mean. the money are the last and the least of the problems |
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(I didn't really know what this topic was about) Why do you want your headphones to sound the same as your speakers? Why don't you get headphones that kind of sound the same as the speakers? Don't speakers sound different anyway? |
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neat. maybe once i do that i can then adjust from there for having wanted output effect. actually setting it up like just one effective intrument. or a circuit where theres no discontinuity |
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Afaik listening to dance music on headphones is kind of doing it wrong. |
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yes i think speakers sound different anyway. what i would be trying to get after eqing that shit up, is the same FEEL. i bet you can't take it with eq. maybe i can try putting some room into the heaphones mix to try to get the acoustic of the room, with the carpets, or something |
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listening to dance in a room is right though |
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yea, totally agree, and thats suck... id like so many things and no money for nothing :( the thing is the headphones are not giving you a flat response (you having a lost at 6000 hz for example) and when you play the music created with them on other speakers it may sound different. maybe its better, if you cant have a perfect studio, to have different references (headphones + speakers) and try to make your music sound cool in both of them |
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damn, when i write my shit the conversation has totally moved :S |
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haha. i'm out to test some sub-positioning before i go out. l8 |
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I know what you mean, but I mean the actual sound. One of the reasons headphones are different is because the bass doesn't make your organs shake. I guess there's other reasons too, and their not just the atmosphere of the room. |
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yes, the bass. you still have to be realist, and take it proportionally to the conditions you happen to be in though. i wouldn't try to making music for domes for example. maybe i can do dance stuff but contextually different than the one you can dance in discoteques. it's another approach too, to be honest. more geniune in some cases. we're getting somewhere. i just found the best place for the sub by aligning it to the speakers, both orizonally and vertically. best place as for cleaner sound, by listening to music that sounds clean. before, the bus was 1 meter circa behind them, near the wall, and 20-30 centimeters upwads. i still have to go in the other angle (diagonally) of the room to hear the sub at best, present and immersive. i guess it's for the carpet thing? |
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lol, bus! my system |
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haha |
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watch my joining date. i've had those little mothercfuckers since that now make 1 +1 |
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my shit without wall exxageration sounds unexpectedly low. apart the annoying vocal range of course, that's not wall refection must be those weak radio circuits.. i love them |
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let's talk about carpet tiles. i bet those are the shit who use them, where to get them, where to put them, ect |
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where it talks about resonation chambers (what my room for music actually is, a resonation chamber) here says that theres no listening room with speakers positioned on the angles of it, then it says 'who listen, will never ever put the head in one of the opposite angles' wrong! haha then it continues saying that if you put speakers far from the angles, you will never stimulate all resonances of the room, but only some of them. and the spacing of them depens on the position of the speakers (ground tiles help doing this, like a squared sheet) i don't think going in the another angle of the room would be a solution. would the carpet tiles help. and what would happen? |
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i know it's a resonation chamber cos it sounds exactly like if you were turning up the resonance knob. fucking resonance, i suspect it has something to do with the annoying vocal range, too. |
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and maybe something with the low volume, too |
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"what freqy said > using calibration mic (flat response) + white noise (all frequencies there) then calibrate your parametric EQ to make the spectral as flat as possible " this is completely wrong. you cannot eq yourself a flat response curve. how can you eq yourself out of an infinite null? how many band eq do you need to overcome con/destructive interference via comb-filtering? and if you move your head a few inches, you'll have an entirely difference response! eq is icing on the cake - used only to tame the lowest of modal issues. |
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woohoo! tell more about carpets please |
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seriously if you move your head a few inches, |
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car-pets car-pets |
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mohamed, there are several acoustical issues that are inherent within small rooms (typical of most listening rooms, bedrooms, living rooms, small home theaters, etc). if you have a mic, i highly suggest you download, install, and become familiar with: your first step would be to start taking measurements. frequency response is what most people concentrate on, but it is of little relevance. first, we need to address specular incident energy issues within the time domain -- for sonic energy that functions as rays. an envelope time curve (ETC) graph will give you a total-picture specular response of the room. from early arrivals until the last of the sonic energy - with respect to time. second, we need to address the wave region; where room modes are the defining factor in response and time-domain decay. this can be performed with a waterfall plot |
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a waterfall plot from 0-300hz should be sufficient. this will detail you the response of the bass/wave region, as well as show you a 3rd dimension which is time. modal ringing is extremely detrimental. the time-domain waterfall plot will detail to you which modes are causing long time decays (in milliseconds). for example, if you had a 600ms decay time at 58Hz, then that means if you played a quick impulse sine @ 58hz, from the moment the signal stopped emitting from your speaker, the energy in the room took 6/10s of a second to decay! now, imagine playing music with extremely fast bass notes in this region. with 58hz taking 600ms to decay, that region will sound extremely muddy as the notes all run together. |
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now, after putting yourself in a position to take measurements, you will now want to move your speakers around to find the best response. low freq/bass response due to reflections off room boundaries will cause constructive and destructive interference... thus, at the listening position, some frequencies will combine out-of-phase and at that node, a null will be formed. you will not hear this frequency (or it will be heavily attenuated). otherwise, the original signal and a reflection may combine in-phase, boosting that frequency much louder. room modes can be calculated via the geometry of your room boundaries (dimensions), and depending on the location of your ears in 3D space, will have drastically different frequency response (even by moving a few inches in a single plane!) - but calculation is theory, and measurements are practice. so calculation can show you what your expected issues will be, but by measuring, you will know for certain. |
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but it's not just the room modes that affect low freq response! standing waves (nodes, anti-nodes, etc) are a primary issue, but there are many more as well! SBIR is the primary reason why you see most monitors soffit mounted (flush with the front wall). low frequencies are omni directional. they are emitted from the subwoofer in all directions - including wrapping around the speaker cabinet and diffracting behind the speaker. the issue with this is simple. a pressure wave will leave the speaker and travel to your ears. it also (being omni directional) will traverse towards the rear of the speaker, hit the front wall, and reflect back (passing by the speaker again) and towards your ears. so, let's say your speaker is 3.5ft from the front wall. well, 3.5ft is the 1/4wavelength distance of 80hz. so, what happens when 80hz is played? well, the wave travels behind the speaker towards the front wall (1/4wavelenght = 3.5ft), it reflects off the front wall and travels back another 1/4wavelength (3.5ft). so now, a reflection has traveled 1/2wavelength and is back at the speaker! so, the reflection distructively combines with the original source from the speaker, 180* out of phase! thus, creating a null. so, at your listening position, you will not hear 80hz (or it will be severely attenuated). the same thing goes for the rear wall behind you. the distance between your rear wall and your ears, whatever frequency's 1/4wavelength that distance corresponds to, you are going to be in a null and will not hear that frequency (in theory)! the wave will travel past your ears, reflect off the wall, come back towards your ears, and combine again with the original signal at your ears 180* out of phase. |
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i am following you, but just cos i've heard it before, that's why you got me curious. that muddyness, that long time to decay is clearly udible, especially cos it's different depending on my position in the room. otherwise i would never have the willing to do such a job. that program looks lush, which mic do you reccomend? i'd be more than happy if i could just take those advices easily, but at least put them in pratice. |
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oh, boy ! lots of inherent issues within any small acoustical space! once you identify the issues within your room particular, then we can address with treatment such as velocity based broadband porous absorption, or perhaps pressure based tuned traps! and since there is no such thing as reverb in small acoustical spaces (by definition! no statistically random response - all specular reflections), then maybe we could apply diffusion in order to break up some of the hard specular reflections into multiple software reflections - adding spatial dispersion, but also temporal dispersion (e.g. the time domain)! lots of solutions! but it all depends on the specific issues with your room, the room model you would like to follow, the other design criteria. but much can be done with a $50 mic and free software! |
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"that program looks lush, which mic do you reccomend" |
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"that muddyness, that long time to decay is clearly udible, especially cos it's different depending on my position in the room." ah, multiple waves interacting with themselves and their reflections. so curious! to explore further (the pressure based regions), play a single sine wave and proceed to walk around your room. your ears are pressure based; what happens as you approach a boundary? a 2D corner? a 3D corner? |
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ha, traveling all around my room and make music artifacts is my favourite hobby. but what do i do when i get all the measurements done, considering that i'm not willing to make all those fractions to make a tune? tell me more about carpets,for once that someone asks you!!! |
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oh, let's talk stereo imaging! since speakers dont emit all sounds in the form of narrow laser beams! and since the polar graph of your speaker will clearly show side-lobes throughout the range, you can be damn sure there is some energy being thrown off-axis! mohammd, the signal from the left speaker takes a linear vector to your head/ears at the listening position. the off-axis energy from the left speaker also traverses away and towards the right wall, where it reflects and then enters your right ear. how badly is this confusing the brain regarding imaging? |
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damn you elusive! |
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j/k, i can picture how sound travels now. you clear, thanks |
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"but what do i do when i get all the measurements done, considering that i'm not willing to make all those fractions to make a tune? " once measurements are taken, then you determine the type of room model and response you would like, and apply treatments to tame particular issues to achieve your goal. name a specific issue and we can discuss solutions. who cares about making tunes. i want my listening area to be neutral much like that of a control room. this is all for playback. "tell me more about carpets,for once that someone asks you!!! " well, if you have a particular issue in the room where for a particular reason you are looking to absorb very high frequency content (even higher as the angle of incident increases) - and leave the rest of the mids and lows alone (which is where the bulk of the energy, and the bulk of the issues are to be tamed). there is little to no use of carpet. the inherent issues measured in your room will determine the appropriate treatments and solutions that need to be implemented. you can then measure again to verify the treatment is functioning as desired. |
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but what to do with visualizing of my room acoustic apart the joy of doing it? nuffin unless you tell me about covering the walls i have a couple of winddows but they're part of the show |
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old post now checking yours |
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ok :) |
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well, if you have a particular issue in the room where for a particular reason you are looking to absorb very high frequency content (even higher as the angle of incident increases) - and leave the rest of the mids and lows alone (which is where the bulk of the energy, and the bulk of the issues are to be tamed). nope, how i can tell you.. i can cut the high by myself, so yes, mid/bass is where i want the work done. is this of any relevance to the headphone.speaker calibration issue? |
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post your inherent, measured issues - and we can discuss solutions. in any small room, the reflection-free-zone (RFZ) is surely the model to follow. the goal of that is to destroy any early reflections above -20dB within 20ms of the original signal - as it is shown that the brain cannot distinguish that a signal is a separate reflection unless it arrives after approx 20ms of the original signal. so smearing and other psuedo issues occur. the idea is to damp these 'early reflections' (reflections that arrive within 20ms or so of the original signal)...so the ear only hears the original signal, and then a short time later, the decay trail. the path between the speaker and your ears is the shortest path, so that signal will always reach your ears first. sound takes a longer path as it bounces off side walls,ceiling,rear wall, etc and then reaches your ears. here, the original signal + reflections combine destructively and constructively, to give a comb-filtered response - lots of peaks and nulls and peaks and nulls. example, see the top graph, see the direct sound, then moments later a reflection of energy from the side walls, ceiling, etc...all within the 20ms ISD? and the bottom graph - the response we want ... just the direct, original signal hitting our ears, then a short time later (outside of the 20ms ISD gap), an exponentially decaying (lateral, hopefully) diffused soundfield. yumm! so the solution? absorb, reflect, or redirect the specular energy at the reflection point (ceiling, side walls, etc) away from the listening position. think of it like a billiards table...as a ball/wavelength is moving towards the boundary (generally at an angle, not perpendicular), it will hit the rail and bounce away. but the angle of incident = the angle of reflection! so we can find these points on the walls, ceiling, etc - tha |
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- that is the 'reflection point' that reflects energy to your listening position- and then apply treatment in those areas to absorb or redirect that specular energy! |
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