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Some facts... AIR POLLUTION: Cattle account for 20% of methane emissions, a "greenhouse gas" 20 times more powerful than carbon dioxide in its effects on global warming. WATER POLLUTION: Farm animals consume 80% of the world's freswater supplies. Animal effluent is 100 times more polluting than raw human sewage. UK livestock farms produce 200 million tons of sewage a year (now bigger polluter of waterways than heavy industry) and use 159 billion gallons of water per year. It takes 2500 gallons of water to produce one pound of meat, but only 25 gallons to produce a pound of wheat. LAND USE: One hectare of rainforest when felled, torched and seeded for grazing will produce 200 kilos of meat a year - enough to make 1600 hamburgers. Overgrazing and agricultural deforestation erodes topsoil between 24 and 26 billion tonnes a year (it takes 500 years to make one inch of top soil) Land the size of 5 football pitches will, if grazed by animals, produce enough meat for two people; if used to grow maize, ten people; wheat, 24 people; soya, 61 people. 72% of arable land is devoted to growing feed for livestock rather than directly for human consumption. Meat production is ecologically unsustainable and inefficient in feeding an ever growing human population. Chew on that! ; P |
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true true... you're so right. the not washing part is because the bacteria is in the soil. I buy most things organic. What's cool is they have organic apples now, that doesn't cost like $4 per kilo, but $2... =) If you're a rawfoodist you should eat organic stuff. It's more healthy because you will not get thoose nasty chemicals and also the chemicals kill a huge amount of the vitamins. I think it's like more than twice as much vitamins in organic stuff than non-organic stuff, so even if organic stuff costs twice as much - it's worth it! Also it tastes better, and eating less amount of food, with more vitamins, is to be prefered to eating more amount of food for more vitamins. |
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Slaves used to eat it as it helped make them feel less hugnry, but it was addictive (probably at least partially psychological if they were starving!) and many would die from eating too much. |
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I'm a student so I don't have much cash, so I'm glad I live in sweden... I hear paying for quality food in e.g. the US is really expensive! Nice facts there Peloton :/ |
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hehe well I'm not talking about actually eating a fist of soil... I meant like morgoth, not to wash the organic stuff you buy. |
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Yeah, you're right. Everyone should read "diet for a new america". It states facts like that. And also, please do not come with the argument that "well, you're still driving a car which polutes also" because: it's not that you're doing bad in one part of your life, that it should stop you from doing your best in another aspect. And it's not so that veggies/vegans are perfect, or that we know everything. We're just explaining what why we do some things. |
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He he, the "water use" argument doesn't wash (no pun intended) with me- Look at the water levels in the world... they simply don't change... it's all well and good talking about the odd few thousand litres here and there. It's absolutely bugger all compared to what are used in millions of day to day things like making clothes, cars, computers, etc. Also water isn't "destroyed" when it is turned to steam, drunk etc. it returns to the water cycle in a matter of hours. Using up water is not something we need worry about. |
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I don't share your optimism Read The World Watch Institute paper on it. |
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Using water means that afterwards you have to make it clean again. We need not to really worry about water supplies I think, but about polution levels. If we use thousands of liters extra per day, those thousands will get into the environment, and it will take more effort, more money and so on to make it drinkable again. |
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me 2, i have been thinking about. not so much because it's a dead animal but because meat tstes like shit. |
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Surely all that will happen is that wetland areas in certian countries will become the primary grain producers through neccessity and others will take on new industries rather than farming. Israel have started it and it has worked well for them. I doubt it'll ever stop raining in Wales- we'll just become a farming nation ;) |
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animals are filty creatures i could never eat one! |
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Well this thread went bad quick... Stop. Breathe. Reform your argument, decide what you wanted to say, and make a small concise point to continue. |
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Peloton, that is exactly why most vegans are idiots. Propoganda. Throwing numbers around makes it SEEM like there is a bigger problem than there really is and pegs a problem as being created by something which (in this case especially) is only a very, very small degree of the problem. I won't refute them directly, although I could... I want you to look at some small points and realize WHY the numbers skew your view. 1) It does not say how much methane is produced compared to Carbon Dioxide. Which hurts the ozone level more? Is methane negligible? 20% of WHAT? 2) The world's water supplies are in danger? Since when? 2500 to 25? How do they come up with those numbers? Are they accounting for usable portions of meat/wheat from the total? Water used for drinking for the cattle only? Total water in their diet? Rainfall consumed? How is this different from the "drinking water" quote earlier? 3) 200 kilos when used properly? Or the way bad farmers use them in underdeveloped countries? How much can this be improved with proper techniques? Do all farmers erode topsoil? Why don't we hear about this from American/European sources? 24 to 26 billion tonnes is a lot, why is this significant? Think about what you're saying. Numbers mean NOTHING in that context. They are skewed in some way, this is a very common scare tactics that environmentalists use to encourage people to deal with the problem. I do not disagree with this, but it is far from a good argument for anything. And I say this even though I agree with a couple of the points. If you really don't believe me, explain every point I just said and I'll keep asking questions. I have dealt with all of these issues and especially qualitative scientific data for most of my college career, refuted bad arguments, etc. This kind of stuff only works well in media land. |
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I have no "arguments" for being vegan. I don't think vegans or vegetarians need arguments. I hate it when people try to convince me to eat meat or dairy.. it's soo annoying. I have my reasons and im healthy so I don't see why it's anyones business. I usually don't tell people unless they offer me dairy or meat products.. or gum and shit. |
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And if only more vegans were like you corrupted girl... I'm not trying to convince anyone "not" to be vegetarian. I've said I think there are several good reasons. I personally don't understand why people are "vegan", and nobody has given me a good reason. I want people to think about what they preach, or what they think they believe in. |
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they dont have to give you a good reason. i just dont see why people care what other people eat. |
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the meat industry isn't the only industry that is harmful to animals. if animal cruelty is one of the "good" reasons about veing vegetarian. |
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I live in a city where veganism is "in fashion" People preach about it all the time. When they shove it in my face, which they do, it becomes my business. After talking about it a lot, I still have come to no good conclusions about why people are vegan. And I enjoy debating the topic because I think there are lots of interesting things to say about it. |
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Exactly, it's not. Most vegans fool themselves by thinking what they're doing is "saving the planet" or whatever... or even worse, it's a "statement" There are so many more productive ways to help the environment, the planet, or the population's health... |
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you're wrong. You have plenty good reasons in this topic, you just don't believe in them. You probably do not see the connection. Caring about everything in nature, understanding why it is important, etc, is really important. For yourself and for everything that exists on earth. If you seriously believe the whole world (people/animals/environment) is better off eating meat (then being on a vegan diet), and treating animals and nature like we do right now, then please tell my why you believe so. |
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see for me, it's not about fashion, saving the earth or shoving it in other people's faces. i actually can't stand the trendy vegans in my city who have this superiority about them. im vegan for more personal reasons. |
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The world sucks. There are so many problems that it makes me sick. I find myself living in a futile position of not know what will ultimately make a difference because the problems are so complex. I know being vegan would take a huge portion of my time and energy that I could be devoting to other things and would probably do nothing but a symbolic fight. In my experience, and in history (Giving land to Germany pre-WWII anyone?) symbolism and good intentions aren't enough. If "the whole world" were to change in that direction, great, I'd jump aboard. Will that happen? Not until we start running out of resources. Why? People are selfish and greedy. |
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i shouldn't and usually don't even call myself a vegan because i only have a strickly vegan diet but i do wear leather shoes and use non-vegan products. it's nearly impossible to be 100% vegan. i don't know what percentage a vegan diet accounts for... but it's not about that. so yeah.. um... |
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That's what I have a big problem with corrupted... people carry around these little "vegan bibles" around here that tell them what kinds of foods they can and cannot eat. The amount of time it takes to figure out what food you can eat is mind boggling... how many animals did you save by not eating an obscure kind of geletin that may or may not have had animal products in it? *sigh* |
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the thing is because our greedy society is based on money, everything you buy affects society. If I decide to buy a certain product I make a statement; I prefer this product to the other products; and my purchase will increase the chance of the company's future existence. People shouldn't buy products from companies that exploit poor countries or companies that do not care about the environment, etc. If you buy stuff made by poor people in poor countries working long days for little money you support the idea of working long days for little money. Fuck greedy companies, and support the ones who care. |
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Organic food around here is made by mexican laborers who are illegal immigrants, allowing you to purchase the organic food cheaply Discuss |
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whatever floats peoples boats.. that's what it comes down to. |
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Sad but true All companies are greedy. Vegan/organic companies included. They either charge very high prices, or reduce some qualities of their food. It's expensive to make quality. |
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I'm not making this up: A vegan girl I knew, used to only feed her dog vegetables. How sick is that? |
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Poor dog... I bet he spent every day wondering "I wonder how SHE tastes" |
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thats not rreally farre, its lucky she neverr had a cat |
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I do not understand your argument. What has the workers original nationality got to do with anything? Are they working under poor conditions? Don't you have laws against that in the US? sorry, it's probably just me, please eleaborate... |
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Sanguine, I see that you have a problem with vegans who are trying to shove it up to you, who try to convince you. The only thing I and Key_secret are doing, is saying why we are vegetarian/vegan. We're not saying that we are saving the world. We're only doing this for ourselves mostly, and being vegetarian for me is a simple way to reduce my negative impact on this world. I should do more, I know, but at least I'm doing this. And I also have a problem with vegans who are preaching about it. That sucks. I became vegetarian for personal reasons, and I started reading about it. That's when I became more convinded about it, that there's a lot more to it that I first thought. I also learned more about our own fysiology/anatomy, and although I do not consider it proven, I find indications that our body was more meant for a herbivore diet than a mixed diet. But: each their own. My girlfriend eat meat, every now and then she eats vegetarian with me, but when we make rice or so, I will bake my tofu and I will also bake some chicken or fish for her. It's a personal thing, and people can always ask me questions about it, but I also hate poeple who are saying that "you need meat". Open mindedness from both sides is a good thing. |
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Yes, poor conditions, and very, very poor pay (because they're illegal) Yes we have laws against it, but they're generally ignored because there is no other way for produce farmers around here to turn a profit. My point is, unless a company is cutting corners someplace, and usually ethical questions are easily cut, then prices would be too high for you to continue your lifestyle that way |
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That's not ethical either. No doubt about that. But: being vegan is not about being perfect. That is impossible in this world. It's about trying to make an effort, and vegans are focussed on animal/environmental issues, whereas others will have their focus elsewhere. Needles to say that most vegans don't like the fact that others do not get enough food for the vegetables they have on their fields, but those vegetables could also be fed to catle and then the farmer wouldn't get any more money either... |
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eating meat made ourr brrains develop to what they arre now? who carres it makes no differrence to now does it. |
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All animals ought to eat raw food only. The only way to eat raw meat is to eat it directly from the dead animal... I've heard some pets are fine on vegan diets, though I have no idea how it works, since i.e. cats are predators.. |
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cat's won't eat vegetables, they don't. it's a fact of life they eat meat. |
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but they might be predators like the bear... ah well I really don't know :) |
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Vegetarian is great, seriously... "I don't like meat" is a FANTASTIC argument. Heck, even if it just doesn't look appealing, whatever, still valid Being vegan, nit picking every chemical that goes in your food because it's possibly made by an animal, is taking this to an extreme. It becomes a political statement, a way of life, a religious experience, something way more than simple arguments. I think it goes way over the top and cannot be easily justified. Because of that, and because I've heard no really good arguments for being that hardcore about it, I'm curious why one would do that. Open mindedness is what I'm looking for too, I'm trying to spark thought, and it looks like I have, so I'm happy. |
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i know vegans who don't use soap etc... |
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My friend's dog eats frozen carrots and loves the things... makes his poo bright orange so it's easy to find, weird how that works |
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Hehe... it all comes down to the vegan rawfood-diet... Then it's real easy to stay vegan and healthy! A rawfood diet is the only diet for humans! Do I even need to elaborate? We are living beings, not dead ones, and therefor we should eat living foods; not dead foods! I think the rawfooddiet would make more people vegan to, since it doesn't disguise the meat in some fancy package like the meat market do today. We can't fight nature. Most things we do today outside nature affects our bodies in a bad way. Soon an increasing number of people will understand the culture/nature thing and someone in power will do something about it. The only thing I can do for now is to live as I learn... and I think everybody should do that. |
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you can't stop people eating cooked meat. prrimal trribes people eat cooked meat. its like saying vegans have to eat meat. |
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you can't stop people eating cooked meat. prrimal trribes people eat cooked meat. its like saying vegans have to eat meat. It's not the same thing. what are you talking about? if more people would be aware of the cultural/natural situation (which in short means what is natural to us, and what we do because of culture) they would choose to be rawfoodists. People can be stopped to eat meat by making it illegal to kill animals. |
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Animals that are predatory that are and not allowed/able to hunt get depressed. |
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By that logic, plants are not living after we cut them off the stem. Therefore they are dead... We can indeed fight nature. Our lifestyle choices influence our evolution, this is easily seen by the large differences in chemical and physiological traits from continent to continent and of different races, dependant on the way they lived. |
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People can be stopped to eat meat by making it illegal to kill animals. thats not rright. why the hell should it be illegal. |
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yeah... they probably do... Nobody or nothing can fight nature on their own. Why is that so hard to understand? |
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