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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 16:56 [#01833886]
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First, I'll say that I'll try to not take sides here, and I hope I can keep to that.. for now.
For those unaware of the case:
A Danish newspaper and subsequently a Norwegian one have both printed some caricature drawings of Mohammed, the Great Prophet of Islam. One of the pictures had Mohammed with a bomb instead of a turban and the other one I'm not sure about.. anyway, this has caused what seems to be mass protests and people rioting in the streets, burning norwegian and danish flags, demanding an excuse from each government. People have stormed embassies and are just generally EXTREMELY pissed off.
Now, it seems a bit silly for them to get all worked up about some silly drawings in a few newspapers, but that's just from our point of view. From their point of view, it is strictly forbidden to depict Mohammed (much like with God), and it is even worse when the depiction mocks the Great Prophet. Of course, a sweeping generalisation would not be in place here, as several Imams have gone out and warned people against taking extreme measures towards violence, and prominent Imams in both Norway and Denmark have initiated talks with the respective governments to work out how to avoid more conflict.
As the first reactions raged on, other newspapers in other countries have now picked up on it, and for some reason they too insist on printing the pictures of Mohammed and even create new ones, knowing full well that something like this is nothing but a provocation. They say it is about "freedom of speech," but I wouldn't really make the claim that freedom of speech should include freedom to knowingly provoke other people; in fact, it seems to be common for people to get a court to rule in favor of them getting "compensation" if anyone have said anything that offended them sufficiently, and depicting Mohammed and making fun of him seems to be a pretty heavy offense to Muslims.
(continued)
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 16:57 [#01833887]
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Even so, if anyone were to say that offensive things shouldn't be excempt from the right to freedom of speech, I would still say that if they know they're saying or doing something (most likely not the case with the first paper or the person who did the drawings, but the rest of them, having already seen the effects know full well that they're doing something that would offend Muslims in general), and they know the consequences, they should be ready to take full responsibility for what they're doing, and if this leads to more trouble, as it is a pretty good "excuse" for extremists to make more attacks, I'd say.. well, I don't really know what I'd say yet, but it seems like blame wouldn't be exclusively with the extremists. Cause and effect.
Now, it should be mentioned that I really like the Romans' take on the whole "offense to the gods" issue; "If anyone offends the gods, that is a case for the gods alone" (there's probably a proper english translation for that, but I don't know what it is). What I mean (even though that isn't what the proverb means.. that was just a side note) is that even if their holy book forbids depicting Mohammed, as we should respect their right to believe what they believe, they should respect our right to not believe it, or rather, to believe what we believe. In other words, if a Muslim made a silly drawing of Mohammed, they should be allowed to (peacefully, mind you.. I never condone violence) expel this person from their community, or deal with him as he should have expected them to (it seems violence would be implied here anyway, but.. be gentle).
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 16:57 [#01833888]
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However, when a person who isn't a Muslim makes a silly drawing, it shouldn't be enough to make the entire populace of that religion rise up in anger and go marching through the streets, burning flags and breaking into embassies! They should maybe express a mild discomfort or grunt a bit.. preferrably they should be able to laugh at it too, but that's not really an option.
I think I've started rambling. I'll just provide links and ask what I was going to ask: what is your opinion?
a link. More are probably easily available at your local newspapers homepage or something...
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 16:58 [#01833890]
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..are there any Muslims here, by the way, 'cause that'd be awesome!
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xceque
on 2006-02-03 17:00 [#01833892]
Points: 5888 Status: Moderator | Show recordbag
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Hi folks, and welcome to the "let's beat the creationism/intelligent design thread" thread.
*reads now*
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qrter
from the future, and it works (Netherlands, The) on 2006-02-03 17:01 [#01833893]
Points: 47414 Status: Moderator | Followup to Drunken Mastah: #01833890
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you narrowly avoided Instant Death there..!
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staz
on 2006-02-03 17:01 [#01833894]
Points: 9844 Status: Regular
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I despise their point of view, so I'll just say that I think this is all very silly and we humans are so hung up on fairytales.
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qrter
from the future, and it works (Netherlands, The) on 2006-02-03 17:02 [#01833895]
Points: 47414 Status: Moderator | Followup to xceque: #01833892
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oh hello. how's your record collection doing?
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:02 [#01833896]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to qrter: #01833893 | Show recordbag
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I missed it by the length of a hyphen!
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:04 [#01833897]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to staz: #01833894 | Show recordbag
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yeah, it is a bit silly, but still.. all "the west" has ever done for them is try and make them like "us"...
eventually, "the west" will be the whole world, and they will make a remake of the movie "how the west was won" in a modern setting with Keanu Reeves and The Rock.
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xceque
on 2006-02-03 17:05 [#01833898]
Points: 5888 Status: Moderator | Show recordbag
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I think they are being very intollerant, and are generally intollerant on the whole anyway. But I guess that's the way they see things, so there we go. Never the twain and all that. Agree to disagree. Or not.
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xceque
on 2006-02-03 17:06 [#01833899]
Points: 5888 Status: Moderator | Followup to qrter: #01833895 | Show recordbag
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We're both well, thanks. I'm listening to the new Cat Power mostly this week. It's very good.
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stilaktive
from a place on 2006-02-03 17:06 [#01833900]
Points: 3162 Status: Lurker
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islam hasnt become as watered down and petty as christianity so its truly offensive when someone they worship is depicted in that way. imagine someone doing something similar to a drawing of jesus 300 years ago. like a big hairy bellend sticking out of his pants. that would be funny. but then say hes a filthy rapist and loves fucking little boys and then skull fucking old men. yeah a bit wrong.
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:10 [#01833901]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to xceque: #01833898 | Show recordbag
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haha, not one for long conversations, are you?
I was really hoping to find someone who could sympathise with the islamic take on this to avoid getting "they are bad." "I agree." "I concur." "Thank you, goodbye."
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:14 [#01833902]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to stilaktive: #01833900 | Show recordbag
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yeah, it's much younger.. right now it seems to be quite similar to when christianity had "THE ULTIMATE ANSWER TO GOOD RIGHT WAYS OF LIFE AND EVERYONE ELSE MUST DIE FOR THEY ARE HEATHENS!"
so you think Islam will evolve and become more secularised like christianity has become (reading the bible more metaphorical)?
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r40f
from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:15 [#01833903]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular
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that's some twisted logic you've got there, drunken. are you playing devil's advocate or should i bother or what?
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xceque
on 2006-02-03 17:16 [#01833904]
Points: 5888 Status: Moderator | Followup to Drunken Mastah: #01833901 | Show recordbag
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well i try to keep things short because i generally feel that no-one actually cares what i think and even if they do anything i say isn't going to change anyone's life so just keep it brief.
i don't agree with their extreme viewpoint. i think it's ok to object to someone making a mockery of something you take very seriously and feel strongly about, and it's ok to be vocal and be angry. but when you start taking to the streets with placards saying "kill all those who say rude things about Mohammed" or "destroy all of europe because one person drew some mocking images and some papers printed them" you're going way way too far and seriously need to get a grip.
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:16 [#01833906]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to r40f: #01833903 | Show recordbag
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what part of it?
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staz
on 2006-02-03 17:18 [#01833907]
Points: 9844 Status: Regular | Followup to stilaktive: #01833900
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I just think christianity managed to adapt as the community became modernized, it actually gained a bit of common sense as time went by instead of sticking to the morale of the crusades and the inquisitions. I wouldn't call it watered down. Even though it's still pointless prattle, I must say it's got a lot more going for it that islam has, because it's even more fairy tales, intolerance and ridiculous bullshit.
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epohs
from )C: on 2006-02-03 17:21 [#01833908]
Points: 17620 Status: Lurker
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so, some cartoonist insinuated that muslims were violent by nature; and then a bunch of muslims responed by rioting and being violent? is that right?
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epohs
from )C: on 2006-02-03 17:23 [#01833910]
Points: 17620 Status: Lurker
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dudes, he's blowing up his own head..
that ain't cool.
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r40f
from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:24 [#01833911]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular
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well, for one thing
They say it is about "freedom of speech," but I wouldn't really make the claim that freedom of speech should include freedom to knowingly provoke other people or say something mean or something i disagree with or say something against the state and so on and so on. i totally disagree that free speech should be limited. by your standards, i couldn't call you a twat for trying to deny me a basic human right, for instance, and that just wouldn't be fair.
second, this is not one issue you're talking about - it's several. there's a lot of things to look at before you can say anything. where was the cartoon published? who was demonstrating and where? you're kind of willy nilly there.
people must have the right to protest, they must have the right to burn flags and yell "Down with X Country" and shit like that. it is totally essential. if they are actually committing violence or looting or otherwise breaking a local law, that's obviously wrong. peaceful protest is always acceptable.
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oyvinto
on 2006-02-03 17:26 [#01833912]
Points: 8197 Status: Lurker | Followup to epohs: #01833910 | Show recordbag
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who? kurt westergaard?
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:28 [#01833914]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to xceque: #01833904 | Show recordbag
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that's a rather pessimistic thing to think (the first thing you said, that is).
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JivverDicker
from my house on 2006-02-03 17:28 [#01833915]
Points: 12102 Status: Regular
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I go with Stephen Fry, he said the same thing rather more pithily in a debate about religious censorship at this year’s Hay-on-Wye festival: “You’re offended? So fucking what?”. I've been to 3 muslim weddings in my time and it's a good old knees up! FundaMENTALIST against fundaMANTALIST in any walk of life is going to end in a punch up. To be honest I think fuck 'em. If it ends in 100 people being murdered and or sent to prison for the rest of their lives, it's a petty squabble really.
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r40f
from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:30 [#01833916]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to JivverDicker: #01833915
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i agree until the last thing you said about people getting murdered.
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xceque
on 2006-02-03 17:31 [#01833918]
Points: 5888 Status: Moderator | Followup to Drunken Mastah: #01833914 | Show recordbag
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Well, I'm an optimist, but with low self-esteem :)
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r40f
from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:31 [#01833919]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to xceque: #01833918
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i like to read your comments, honestly
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obara
from Utrecht on 2006-02-03 17:33 [#01833921]
Points: 19377 Status: Regular
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Kurt, nooo.....
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:33 [#01833922]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to r40f: #01833911 | Show recordbag
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didn't I say that? The cartoon was first printed in Denmark (and now in many other newspapers around the world). The riots are.. generally wherever there are Muslims, and Muslims are the ones doing the protesting and rioting.
the thing with the protesting is that it doesn't really seem all that peaceful.. it may be due to television coverage, but I mentioned the bit with people breaking into embassies and throwing eggs at them and stuff like that, and.. well, if you see the images from the protests, it isn't just some small procession.. it's literally streets filled with people from side to side, and they're all pretty god damned angry. Some, though they may have been the more extreme ones, targeted by television, said things that pointed towards violence.
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xceque
on 2006-02-03 17:33 [#01833923]
Points: 5888 Status: Moderator | Followup to JivverDicker: #01833915 | Show recordbag
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I've got a lot of time for Stephen Fry. I like him.
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:36 [#01833926]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to xceque: #01833918 | Show recordbag
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hahah, still.. right now it doesn't matter who makes the comment.. I found your other comment hard to actually "answer," though, which is the reason why I haven't. Mostly because I kind of agree. I want DISAGREEMENT, GOD DAMNIT!
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epohs
from )C: on 2006-02-03 17:38 [#01833927]
Points: 17620 Status: Lurker
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what was your point? i'll disagree.
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:39 [#01833929]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to JivverDicker: #01833915 | Show recordbag
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saying "fuck you" doesn't really solve anything and would be a rather silly thing to do right now.
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r40f
from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:41 [#01833930]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to Drunken Mastah: #01833929
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it does actually. it solves the problem of having to debate with someone who is clearly an idiot.
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Atli
from Reykjavík (Iceland) on 2006-02-03 17:42 [#01833931]
Points: 1309 Status: Lurker
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i'm pretty sure the majority of protestors haven't even seen the pictures. i read somewhere that some imam/associations were distributing pictures that weren't even made by jyllands posten.
i understand people are angry but denmark and norway had nothing to do with this, it's just one newspaper in denmark who started this shit, not the whole nation.
i feel this has been used to fuel some anger towards the western world that is, of course, and has been there for a long time. another "us against them" bullshit. and i'm sure political leaders in some of those muslim countries like this because people focus on this instead of some domestic problems that are much more serious.
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mappatazee
from ¨y¨z¨| (Burkina Faso) on 2006-02-03 17:43 [#01833933]
Points: 14294 Status: Lurker
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Why are muslims such extreme idiots?
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r40f
from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:43 [#01833934]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to Atli: #01833931
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very wise
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JivverDicker
from my house on 2006-02-03 17:43 [#01833935]
Points: 12102 Status: Regular | Followup to r40f: #01833916
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I'm not saying murder and imprisonment is a good thing. War and conflict is inevitable, last night I watched two ant collonys have a full on war that lasted 4 days, 100000 casualties at least. I'd prefer on the whole for some of us to die for what we believe rather than spout racist shit or not be allowed to speak what we feel.
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:44 [#01833936]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to epohs: #01833927 | Show recordbag
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I don't want disagreement with my point, I don't really know if there was one. I want someone who actually could sympathise with the Muslims or at least someone with some more insight into Islam who could provide explanations or see it from "their" view. I want someone who doesn't just agree with everyone else.
Also, part of my question was about freedom of speech, though I see now that that isn't really that clear.. should everyone still be allowed to keep printing these pictures?
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:46 [#01833938]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to r40f: #01833930 | Show recordbag
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I don't know if I'd be able to distinguish one idiot from the other in that case.
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xceque
on 2006-02-03 17:48 [#01833939]
Points: 5888 Status: Moderator | Followup to mappatazee: #01833933 | Show recordbag
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I assume you are using "idiots" as an insult since they're probably not all stupid any more than any other group of random people are all stupid (except perhaps a convention of villiage idiots). They object strongly because they feel strongly about it. Which is fine.
I say just keep protestations in proportion with the insult.
I should like to clarify at this point that by "they" I'm never refering to all muslims, just people (of any race, creed, nation, religion, etc) who overreact.
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r40f
from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:48 [#01833940]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to Drunken Mastah: #01833936
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should everyone still be allowed to keep printing these pictures?
of course it should.
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weatheredstoner
from same shit babes. (United States) on 2006-02-03 17:48 [#01833941]
Points: 12585 Status: Lurker
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LOL
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r40f
from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:48 [#01833942]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to r40f: #01833940
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*they
:(
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:49 [#01833943]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to Atli: #01833931 | Show recordbag
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yeah, of course they haven't. they're not really allowed to, are they? the point wasn't just that he was depicted with a bomb on his head, it was that no-one is allowed to depict him at all.
also, yeah, I don't think the entire nation should be held responsible for one newspaper, and it seems it's only the Muslims not living in either of the countries who wants to hold the government responsible. However, it has already escalated into a huge diplomatic thingie and the states are now involved no matter what happens...
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mappatazee
from ¨y¨z¨| (Burkina Faso) on 2006-02-03 17:49 [#01833944]
Points: 14294 Status: Lurker | Followup to xceque: #01833939
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Just imagine being in such an enraged state about a cartoon that you go off and kill someone. Forget about the religion and anything else.
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weatheredstoner
from same shit babes. (United States) on 2006-02-03 17:50 [#01833945]
Points: 12585 Status: Lurker
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Not that anyone cares about my opinion but people who turn violent over a picture dissing their religion are obviously stupid and lack any sort of spirituality.
Jihad Burger
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oyvinto
on 2006-02-03 17:51 [#01833946]
Points: 8197 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag
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although the muslims are overreacting i would say it was unneccesary to publiush those pictures, with no other goal then getting "them" pissed off. it actually hasn't much to do with freedom of speech.
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ecnadniarb
on 2006-02-03 17:52 [#01833947]
Points: 24805 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag
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The publishing of the cartoon is needless provocation. In an already xenophobic west the reinforcement of negative stereotypes (in this case Mohammed as a bomber) is totally out of order. By attacking the physical figurehead of a beleive in such a way is bound to cause major controversy. Just imagine if a magazine depicted Jesus with his cock up a kid, it would be politically grounded but can you see it being accepted or publiched in any major publication in a Christian country? It's double standards and not free speech.
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