You are not logged in!

F.A.Q
Log in

Register
  
 
  
Now online (1)
big
...and 514 guests

Last 5 registered
Oplandisks
nothingstar
N_loop
yipe
foxtrotromeo

Browse members...
  
 
Members 8025
Messages 2614128
Today 0
Topics 127542
  
 
Messageboard index
The pictures of Mohammed and that whole business...
 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 16:56 [#01833886]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag



First, I'll say that I'll try to not take sides here, and I
hope I can keep to that.. for now.

For those unaware of the case:

A Danish newspaper and subsequently a Norwegian one have
both printed some caricature drawings of Mohammed, the Great
Prophet of Islam. One of the pictures had Mohammed with a
bomb instead of a turban and the other one I'm not sure
about.. anyway, this has caused what seems to be mass
protests and people rioting in the streets, burning
norwegian and danish flags, demanding an excuse from each
government. People have stormed embassies and are just
generally EXTREMELY pissed off.

Now, it seems a bit silly for them to get all worked up
about some silly drawings in a few newspapers, but that's
just from our point of view. From their point of view, it is
strictly forbidden to depict Mohammed (much like with God),
and it is even worse when the depiction mocks the Great
Prophet. Of course, a sweeping generalisation would not be
in place here, as several Imams have gone out and warned
people against taking extreme measures towards violence, and
prominent Imams in both Norway and Denmark have initiated
talks with the respective governments to work out how to
avoid more conflict.

As the first reactions raged on, other newspapers in other
countries have now picked up on it, and for some reason they
too insist on printing the pictures of Mohammed and even
create new ones, knowing full well that something like this
is nothing but a provocation. They say it is about "freedom
of speech," but I wouldn't really make the claim that
freedom of speech should include freedom to knowingly
provoke other people; in fact, it seems to be common for
people to get a court to rule in favor of them getting
"compensation" if anyone have said anything that offended
them sufficiently, and depicting Mohammed and making fun of
him seems to be a pretty heavy offense to Muslims.

(continued)


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 16:57 [#01833887]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag



Even so, if anyone were to say that offensive things
shouldn't be excempt from the right to freedom of
speech, I would still say that if they know they're saying
or doing something (most likely not the case with the first
paper or the person who did the drawings, but the rest of
them, having already seen the effects know full well that
they're doing something that would offend Muslims in
general), and they know the consequences, they should be
ready to take full responsibility for what they're doing,
and if this leads to more trouble, as it is a pretty
good "excuse" for extremists to make more attacks, I'd say..
well, I don't really know what I'd say yet, but it seems
like blame wouldn't be exclusively with the extremists.
Cause and effect.

Now, it should be mentioned that I really like the Romans'
take on the whole "offense to the gods" issue; "If anyone
offends the gods, that is a case for the gods alone"
(there's probably a proper english translation for that, but
I don't know what it is). What I mean (even though that
isn't what the proverb means.. that was just a side note) is
that even if their holy book forbids depicting
Mohammed, as we should respect their right to believe what
they believe, they should respect our right to not believe
it, or rather, to believe what we believe. In other words,
if a Muslim made a silly drawing of Mohammed, they should be
allowed to (peacefully, mind you.. I never condone violence)
expel this person from their community, or deal with him as
he should have expected them to (it seems violence would be
implied here anyway, but.. be gentle).


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 16:57 [#01833888]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag



However, when a person who isn't a Muslim makes a silly
drawing, it shouldn't be enough to make the entire populace
of that religion rise up in anger and go marching through
the streets, burning flags and breaking into embassies! They
should maybe express a mild discomfort or grunt a bit..
preferrably they should be able to laugh at it too, but
that's not really an option.

I think I've started rambling. I'll just provide links and
ask what I was going to ask: what is your opinion?

a link. More are probably easily available at your
local newspapers homepage or something...


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 16:58 [#01833890]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag



..are there any Muslims here, by the way, 'cause that'd be
awesome!


 

offline xceque on 2006-02-03 17:00 [#01833892]
Points: 5888 Status: Moderator | Show recordbag



Hi folks, and welcome to the "let's beat the
creationism/intelligent design thread" thread.

*reads now*


 

offline qrter from the future, and it works (Netherlands, The) on 2006-02-03 17:01 [#01833893]
Points: 47414 Status: Moderator | Followup to Drunken Mastah: #01833890



you narrowly avoided Instant Death there..!


 

offline staz on 2006-02-03 17:01 [#01833894]
Points: 9844 Status: Regular



I despise their point of view, so I'll just say that I think
this is all very silly and we humans are so hung up on
fairytales.


 

offline qrter from the future, and it works (Netherlands, The) on 2006-02-03 17:02 [#01833895]
Points: 47414 Status: Moderator | Followup to xceque: #01833892



oh hello. how's your record collection doing?


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:02 [#01833896]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to qrter: #01833893 | Show recordbag



I missed it by the length of a hyphen!


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:04 [#01833897]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to staz: #01833894 | Show recordbag



yeah, it is a bit silly, but still.. all "the west" has ever
done for them is try and make them like "us"...

eventually, "the west" will be the whole world, and they
will make a remake of the movie "how the west was won" in a
modern setting with Keanu Reeves and The Rock.


 

offline xceque on 2006-02-03 17:05 [#01833898]
Points: 5888 Status: Moderator | Show recordbag



I think they are being very intollerant, and are generally
intollerant on the whole anyway. But I guess that's the way
they see things, so there we go. Never the twain and all
that. Agree to disagree. Or not.


 

offline xceque on 2006-02-03 17:06 [#01833899]
Points: 5888 Status: Moderator | Followup to qrter: #01833895 | Show recordbag



We're both well, thanks. I'm listening to the new Cat Power
mostly this week. It's very good.


 

offline stilaktive from a place on 2006-02-03 17:06 [#01833900]
Points: 3162 Status: Lurker



islam hasnt become as watered down and petty as christianity
so its truly offensive when someone they worship is depicted
in that way. imagine someone doing something similar to a
drawing of jesus 300 years ago. like a big hairy bellend
sticking out of his pants. that would be funny. but then say
hes a filthy rapist and loves fucking little boys and then
skull fucking old men. yeah a bit wrong.


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:10 [#01833901]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to xceque: #01833898 | Show recordbag



haha, not one for long conversations, are you?

I was really hoping to find someone who could sympathise
with the islamic take on this to avoid getting "they are
bad." "I agree." "I concur." "Thank you, goodbye."


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:14 [#01833902]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to stilaktive: #01833900 | Show recordbag



yeah, it's much younger.. right now it seems to be quite
similar to when christianity had "THE ULTIMATE ANSWER TO
GOOD RIGHT WAYS OF LIFE AND EVERYONE ELSE MUST DIE FOR THEY
ARE HEATHENS!"

so you think Islam will evolve and become more secularised
like christianity has become (reading the bible more
metaphorical)?


 

offline r40f from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:15 [#01833903]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular



that's some twisted logic you've got there, drunken. are
you playing devil's advocate or should i bother or what?


 

offline xceque on 2006-02-03 17:16 [#01833904]
Points: 5888 Status: Moderator | Followup to Drunken Mastah: #01833901 | Show recordbag



well i try to keep things short because i generally feel
that no-one actually cares what i think and even if
they do anything i say isn't going to change anyone's life
so just keep it brief.

i don't agree with their extreme viewpoint. i think it's ok
to object to someone making a mockery of something you take
very seriously and feel strongly about, and it's ok to be
vocal and be angry. but when you start taking to the streets
with placards saying "kill all those who say rude things
about Mohammed" or "destroy all of europe because one person
drew some mocking images and some papers printed them"
you're going way way too far and seriously need to get a
grip.


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:16 [#01833906]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to r40f: #01833903 | Show recordbag



what part of it?


 

offline staz on 2006-02-03 17:18 [#01833907]
Points: 9844 Status: Regular | Followup to stilaktive: #01833900



I just think christianity managed to adapt as the community
became modernized, it actually gained a bit of common sense
as time went by instead of sticking to the morale of the
crusades and the inquisitions. I wouldn't call it watered
down. Even though it's still pointless prattle, I must say
it's got a lot more going for it that islam has, because
it's even more fairy tales, intolerance and ridiculous
bullshit.


 

offline epohs from )C: on 2006-02-03 17:21 [#01833908]
Points: 17620 Status: Lurker



so, some cartoonist insinuated that muslims were violent by
nature; and then a bunch of muslims responed by rioting and
being violent? is that right?


 

offline epohs from )C: on 2006-02-03 17:23 [#01833910]
Points: 17620 Status: Lurker



dudes, he's blowing up his own head..

that ain't cool.


 

offline r40f from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:24 [#01833911]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular



well, for one thing

They say it is about "freedom of speech," but I wouldn't
really make the claim that freedom of speech should include
freedom to knowingly provoke other people
or say
something mean or something i disagree with or say something
against the state and so on and so on. i totally disagree
that free speech should be limited. by your standards, i
couldn't call you a twat for trying to deny me a basic human
right, for instance, and that just wouldn't be fair.

second, this is not one issue you're talking about - it's
several. there's a lot of things to look at before you can
say anything. where was the cartoon published? who was
demonstrating and where? you're kind of willy nilly there.

people must have the right to protest, they must have the
right to burn flags and yell "Down with X Country" and shit
like that. it is totally essential. if they are actually
committing violence or looting or otherwise breaking a local
law, that's obviously wrong. peaceful protest is always
acceptable.


 

offline oyvinto on 2006-02-03 17:26 [#01833912]
Points: 8197 Status: Lurker | Followup to epohs: #01833910 | Show recordbag



who? kurt westergaard?


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:28 [#01833914]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to xceque: #01833904 | Show recordbag



that's a rather pessimistic thing to think (the first thing
you said, that is).


 

offline JivverDicker from my house on 2006-02-03 17:28 [#01833915]
Points: 12102 Status: Regular



I go with Stephen Fry, he said the same thing rather more
pithily in a debate about religious censorship at this
year’s Hay-on-Wye festival: “You’re offended? So
fucking what?”. I've been to 3 muslim weddings in my time
and it's a good old knees up! FundaMENTALIST against
fundaMANTALIST in any walk of life is going to end in a
punch up. To be honest I think fuck 'em. If it ends in 100
people being murdered and or sent to prison for the rest of
their lives, it's a petty squabble really.


 

offline r40f from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:30 [#01833916]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to JivverDicker: #01833915



i agree until the last thing you said about people getting
murdered.


 

offline xceque on 2006-02-03 17:31 [#01833918]
Points: 5888 Status: Moderator | Followup to Drunken Mastah: #01833914 | Show recordbag



Well, I'm an optimist, but with low self-esteem :)


 

offline r40f from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:31 [#01833919]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to xceque: #01833918



i like to read your comments, honestly


 

offline obara from Utrecht on 2006-02-03 17:33 [#01833921]
Points: 19377 Status: Regular



Kurt, nooo.....


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:33 [#01833922]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to r40f: #01833911 | Show recordbag



didn't I say that? The cartoon was first printed in Denmark
(and now in many other newspapers around the world). The
riots are.. generally wherever there are Muslims, and
Muslims are the ones doing the protesting and rioting.

the thing with the protesting is that it doesn't really seem
all that peaceful.. it may be due to television coverage,
but I mentioned the bit with people breaking into embassies
and throwing eggs at them and stuff like that, and.. well,
if you see the images from the protests, it isn't just some
small procession.. it's literally streets filled with people
from side to side, and they're all pretty god damned angry.
Some, though they may have been the more extreme ones,
targeted by television, said things that pointed towards
violence.


 

offline xceque on 2006-02-03 17:33 [#01833923]
Points: 5888 Status: Moderator | Followup to JivverDicker: #01833915 | Show recordbag



I've got a lot of time for Stephen Fry. I like him.


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:36 [#01833926]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to xceque: #01833918 | Show recordbag



hahah, still.. right now it doesn't matter who makes the
comment.. I found your other comment hard to actually
"answer," though, which is the reason why I haven't. Mostly
because I kind of agree. I want DISAGREEMENT, GOD DAMNIT!


 

offline epohs from )C: on 2006-02-03 17:38 [#01833927]
Points: 17620 Status: Lurker



what was your point? i'll disagree.


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:39 [#01833929]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to JivverDicker: #01833915 | Show recordbag



saying "fuck you" doesn't really solve anything and would be
a rather silly thing to do right now.


 

offline r40f from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:41 [#01833930]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to Drunken Mastah: #01833929



it does actually. it solves the problem of having to debate
with someone who is clearly an idiot.


 

offline Atli from Reykjavík (Iceland) on 2006-02-03 17:42 [#01833931]
Points: 1309 Status: Lurker



i'm pretty sure the majority of protestors haven't even seen
the pictures. i read somewhere that some imam/associations
were distributing pictures that weren't even made by
jyllands posten.

i understand people are angry but denmark and norway had
nothing to do with this, it's just one newspaper in denmark
who started this shit, not the whole nation.

i feel this has been used to fuel some anger towards the
western world that is, of course, and has been there for a
long time. another "us against them" bullshit. and i'm sure
political leaders in some of those muslim countries like
this because people focus on this instead of some domestic
problems that are much more serious.


 

offline mappatazee from ¨y¨z¨| (Burkina Faso) on 2006-02-03 17:43 [#01833933]
Points: 14294 Status: Lurker



Why are muslims such extreme idiots?


 

offline r40f from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:43 [#01833934]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to Atli: #01833931



very wise


 

offline JivverDicker from my house on 2006-02-03 17:43 [#01833935]
Points: 12102 Status: Regular | Followup to r40f: #01833916



I'm not saying murder and imprisonment is a good thing. War
and conflict is inevitable, last night I watched two ant
collonys have a full on war that lasted 4 days, 100000
casualties at least. I'd prefer on the whole for some of us
to die for what we believe rather than spout racist shit or
not be allowed to speak what we feel.


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:44 [#01833936]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to epohs: #01833927 | Show recordbag



I don't want disagreement with my point, I don't really know
if there was one. I want someone who actually could
sympathise with the Muslims or at least someone with some
more insight into Islam who could provide explanations or
see it from "their" view. I want someone who doesn't just
agree with everyone else.

Also, part of my question was about freedom of speech,
though I see now that that isn't really that clear.. should
everyone still be allowed to keep printing these pictures?


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:46 [#01833938]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to r40f: #01833930 | Show recordbag



I don't know if I'd be able to distinguish one idiot from
the other in that case.


 

offline xceque on 2006-02-03 17:48 [#01833939]
Points: 5888 Status: Moderator | Followup to mappatazee: #01833933 | Show recordbag



I assume you are using "idiots" as an insult since they're
probably not all stupid any more than any other group of
random people are all stupid (except perhaps a convention of
villiage idiots). They object strongly because they feel
strongly about it. Which is fine.

I say just keep protestations in proportion with the
insult.

I should like to clarify at this point that by "they" I'm
never refering to all muslims, just people (of any race,
creed, nation, religion, etc) who overreact.


 

offline r40f from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:48 [#01833940]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to Drunken Mastah: #01833936



should everyone still be allowed to keep printing these
pictures?


of course it should.


 

offline weatheredstoner from same shit babes. (United States) on 2006-02-03 17:48 [#01833941]
Points: 12585 Status: Lurker



LOL


Attached picture

 

offline r40f from qrters tea party on 2006-02-03 17:48 [#01833942]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to r40f: #01833940



*they

:(


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-02-03 17:49 [#01833943]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to Atli: #01833931 | Show recordbag



yeah, of course they haven't. they're not really allowed to,
are they? the point wasn't just that he was depicted with a
bomb on his head, it was that no-one is allowed to depict
him at all.

also, yeah, I don't think the entire nation should be held
responsible for one newspaper, and it seems it's only the
Muslims not living in either of the countries who wants to
hold the government responsible. However, it has already
escalated into a huge diplomatic thingie and the states
are now involved no matter what happens...


 

offline mappatazee from ¨y¨z¨| (Burkina Faso) on 2006-02-03 17:49 [#01833944]
Points: 14294 Status: Lurker | Followup to xceque: #01833939



Just imagine being in such an enraged state about a cartoon
that you go off and kill someone. Forget about the religion
and anything else.


 

offline weatheredstoner from same shit babes. (United States) on 2006-02-03 17:50 [#01833945]
Points: 12585 Status: Lurker



Not that anyone cares about my opinion but people who turn
violent over a picture dissing their religion are obviously
stupid and lack any sort of spirituality.

Jihad Burger


 

offline oyvinto on 2006-02-03 17:51 [#01833946]
Points: 8197 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag



although the muslims are overreacting i would say it was
unneccesary to publiush those pictures, with no other goal
then getting "them" pissed off. it actually hasn't much to
do with freedom of speech.


 

offline ecnadniarb on 2006-02-03 17:52 [#01833947]
Points: 24805 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag



The publishing of the cartoon is needless provocation. In
an already xenophobic west the reinforcement of negative
stereotypes (in this case Mohammed as a bomber) is totally
out of order. By attacking the physical figurehead of a
beleive in such a way is bound to cause major controversy.
Just imagine if a magazine depicted Jesus with his cock up a
kid, it would be politically grounded but can you see it
being accepted or publiched in any major publication in a
Christian country? It's double standards and not free
speech.


 


Messageboard index