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 Now online (1)dariusgriffin ...and 571 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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and you DON'T. |
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Goddamnit qrter you jinxed it. I was hoping for the Whiners Trifecta here. |
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"but i don't understand -- i downloaded all the music i possibly could from the label without paying for it! how could they now go out of business?! it seems impossible that a community that so expertly downloads mp3s and shares them to 'promote' the music they love could somehow lose a struggling indie label that has been throwing its money away putting out releases no one buys! impossible!" right, childrens? isn't that what happened? everyone downloaded the ilkae albums on soulseek and now the label has mysteriously decided to stop putting out ilkae records? how do you think the music business is supposed to fucking work? if you like music, PAY FOR IT. the indies are fucking dying because of mp3s. you wait and see. |
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actually.... |
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that's sad news, some of the best melancholic and softer idm was coming out from merck these days. |
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I thought your anus was doing that. |
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I dled Pistachio Island, I listened to it a few times, I deleted it. I wouldn't of bought it without hearing it and I won't buy it having heard it. I don't see how they lost a sale there, or how it's any different from borrowing the album off a mate for week. If a label releases enough quality and the people behind it are fully commited to it, it'll survive regardless of MP3/piracy etc. Enough people will want legit copies/to support the label, that it'll stay afloat. Personally, DAB radio has decreased my record buying of demi-mainstream stuff, far more than MP3 ever did. EG I know I can hear new drum and bass at a reasonable time, fairly regularly on DAB radio. However, radio is percieved as "putting musi out there" for some reason, as opposed to a replacement for buying it (how many people listen to radio instead of buying more cds to listen to? A hell of a lot) |
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I think that's the most sensible way to peruse music; I certainly hate most things, and to avoid becoming to bitter to spend any money whatsoever on releases, I download freely, and purchase anything I remotely like. For instance I got into ilkae recently and am buying a few discs since I like putting my money where I think there's quality.. a small may to push the world in the right direction, IMHOTEPS I think the complaint was more spawned simply by people being assholes about a good player getting knocked out, and this ticked off the freeloader hatred. of course the argument whether p2p helps/hinders is impossible to verify experimentally without a parallel universe over which we have 100% control.. of course I would argue it matters not at all, people being people, and whether they are enabled for a certain task usually having little bearing of how much they get what they desire.. |
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Yeah i agree. I regularly try to flush my mp3's. A big reason for that is the limited space therefore i dont want garbage taking up all the room. I agree with the short download like borrowing. I dont like blind buys. There is no worse feeling then spending money and ending up dissatisfied. And no samples dont do songs justice. :30 to 1:00 samples barely help when you are listening to a longer song. Overall you really cant get a feel for it. |
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Could we stop talking about IDM in here? It's starting to look like WATMM. |
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jel lol |
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Hurry, someone make a thread about the most IDM [object] ever! |
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ok! |
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no, i disagree. most tiny indie labels cannot afford people trying before they buy. if you think that's unfair, you're right. the industry is unfair for the artist and unfair for the smaller label. if you listen to the ilkae record even once (whether it is borrowed or downloaded) and then don't buy it, they have lost a sale. losing a sale is losing money. it's basic economics. they are *losing* money by you listening to their music for nothing. it's true that major labels don't feel the sting of mp3's as much as they'd like you to believe, but indie labels simply cannot stay afloat for very long under the same circumstances. that much should be obvious. |
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actually.... that research doesn't apply at all to what we're talking about here, which is tiny indie labels like m3rck. |
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so what happens if I hear a record at a friends house? |
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won't have an effect on sales, except maybe to boost sales. remember mix tapes between friends? that was great too. mp3-sharing is completely different in practice from these things. this is a widespread phenomenon where each person "innocently borrow/shares" an album and doesn't buy it, except they do it for all the new albums that come out and there are thousands and thousands of individuals doing it. if you don't see how that impacts the indie markets, you're kidding yourself. these are labels that put out a thousand copies of a record. what happens when someone puts it online and a hundred people download it for free? that's 10% of their sales gone. what do you think a label is for? it's not a charity - it's a business! businesses need to make money. that's the bottom line. |
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I still have to disagree with you. If it wasnt for p2p, people wouldnt even be interested in, let alone know of, labels like M3rck, etc. I could be going out on a limb here, but I would venture to say 95% of the people who actually own a M3rck label or disc, also possess non-purchased items by them too. The fact of the matter is, there's no money in distributed music anyways. Musicians of any caliber in any genre make their money from touring. Given the esoteric atmosphere of this genre, its not surprising they couldnt make a living do that either. There's just no real public interest in electronic/computer music these days. And even if there was, we'd all be complaining about "the good old days" or about posers or about sellouts. No one is ever happy and this is a signifier of a much larger issue. |
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YOU DIRTY PIRATE SCUM! |
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that doesn't make sense. you said "if you listen to the ilkae record even once (whether it is borrowed or downloaded) and then don't buy it, they have lost a sale.", so why wouldn't they be losing a sale if I heard the whole thing at a friend's house? also, can you prove that everyone who downloads an album would otherwise have bought that album? seems highly unlikely to me. if anything, downloading has broadened people's tastes, making it possible for small labels to find a much larger audience. I don't believe in your black-and-white assumption that a downloaded album would have been a bought album otherwise. it's just as possible, the "I live on downloaded music"-freaks aside, that the downloaders would never have heard the album and therefore also not bought it. you're talking about possible sales here, phantom sales. seems pretty impossible to make any predictions to me - how do you prove that someone would've bought something they otherwise would never have heard? I need a liedown now. |
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I gotta agree here. I view it as no different. But then again my case is completely different. I've never really bought albums as i get tired of music so fast. This has been since i was a kid. Since CD's became popular i've had less then 25. So since about 92 or so. i think. Half the time they would sit around and collect dust. This way i can give things a certain number of listens and get rid of it. i do buy outstanding albums and due to me burning CDs (mix or not) for friends i can say that i have helped IDM record sales. How can i say that? These kids have zero internet and mainly listen to everything non electronic. But i have opened people up to aphex, square, ovuca, etc etc. They went out and bought albums for there collections. |
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Maybe the Merck guy wants to go start a breakcore label 'cause that's where the money is. |
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OMGosh!!! That avatar is gensoiousoisosiso!!!! |
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LAWL |
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i'm not sure it's entirely fair to compare a tiny label like merck to rephlex or warp. i'm sure if aphex was releasing on merck they wouldn't have financial problems. while it's true that the market will determine whether or not a tiny specialty label stays solvent (assuming responsible stewardship at the label) and acknowledging that it should be obvious to everyone that profit is not merck's motive, i think the small labels who are pressing editions of 1000 and smaller have the most to lose due to music piracy. anyway, i think it's just as likely that there are more reasons that the label might fold beyond the financial. in some ways the label amounts to a very time consuming hobby. i think they've released some great records, but as long as there's an interest (underground though it may be) there will be people who are willing to dedicate themselves to helping expose new music. etc etc etc |
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I hope n5MD picks up most of M3rcks roster. They seem to be a solid label, only looking up. And by the sounds of the new SubtractiveLAD samples, their shit is going to be the new freshness for a while. |
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merck/gabe will be releasing an explanation/statement in the coming weeks. watch out for that.. |
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gl0tch, the new subLAD album is pretty amazing too! --coming out in early '06.. stephen will also be performing live on our radio show january 20th as part of a huge n5MD mafia showcase... |
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i've helped to promote merck over the years (some of you have probably even won merck merch via our show), but i have to say that they've ALWAYS been a solid outfit of devoted musicians doing what they do best.. on a label devoted to releasing what they feel is top-notch electronic-based title both of cd and wax. merck's the all-around, underground, under-appreciated label that somehow managed to print/publish loads of great releases, t-shirts, post-cards, stickers as well as hosting tours around the globe and giving non-established musicians a home to grow... i for one will certainly miss merck as a label and gabe as a friend that continually supports all forms of electronic music --be it hip-hop, ambient, glitch, experimental, indie and all the noise in between.... the good thing is that we still have quite a few more titles to look forward to, so that's a positive note.... we'll also be giving away some more releases on the show in the coming weeks (as we've done many times before)...... |
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yeah, that was the one I was referring to. |
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I wonder if they will manage to squeeze out the new Tstewart record before the end. It would be esp. nice if the last record was a new Syndrone record, considering he was the 1st. Of all the releases Syndrone was the best, imo. |
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gl0tch, i totally agree.. although i really like what travis did on SALMATAXIA, such a fantastic release that it practically mirrors TRISKAIDEKA with a more solidified groove.... tim koch is working on an album, and you can see from the upcoming list that there's a lot more titles to be released..... |
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qrter, vp and gl0tch: missing the point. if you are in a store and the clerk says, i don't care if you start stealing the shit in here because it doesn't belong to me, does that make it all right to steal? likewise, just because mp3 is there to be taken doesn't mean it doesn't cause labels to lose sales! and gl0tch, your decisions about what musicians and businesses should or should not do to make money are utterly useless and are just part of this new way of thinking that is destroying the ability of independent music to thrive. |
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I dont steal from stores. I usually borrow from friends in real life. I'd rather not spend money on music. i usually dont keep it. I have sold alot of movies and music that i have only listened to and or watched under five times. I lose money. |
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you're supposed to buy the album, then sell it when you're done. that's good. what do you want me to tell you? |
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you need to be more specific about that one holmes. As one of the electronic music buyers for one of the oldest independent record stores on the east coast of the US, I've had these conversations plenty of times before. Sales have never been better and we all agree this has everything to do with an increased distribution of information in all forms, including p2p. The fact of the matter is, this new way of thinking, this new "world" you speak of, is defined by information savvy music lovers who are addicted. They buy AND share in equal amounts (which typically exceeds the average consumer and flattens the playing field), all for the love of spreading the word, making that new discovery, encouraging people to actually go OUT and see the performer live (which is proven where the money is, even if you don't want to believe it). Given these types of labels to begin with, if they are selling records or not, they are still not making money - with the exception of perhaps those artists on µ, warp, and ninja tune. might be surprising. |
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no, another research article about major labels is not surprising. i'm talking about how you're taking it for granted that file-sharing is inherently wrong to do. you are deciding how artists and labels will make money. that's so disturbingly presumptuous i don't know where to start. how about the people that do want to be able to sell their records? who the fuck are you to decide that they simply aren't entitled to do that by sabotaging their markets from your ivory tower? |
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how about this: from now, on, no one will be able to sell books. we are going to provide books for free online regardless of the fact that the people who wrote the books and the publishers who published the books will never again make money off of them. from now on, anyone who wants to write a book will have to make it available for free and do lectures to earn a living. ridiculous |
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"i'm talking about how you're taking it for granted that file-sharing is inherently wrong to do." - actually, I think file sharing is not wrong to do. "you are deciding how artists and labels will make money." -no I'm not. On the otherhand, I am suggesting that there are more than just one way to make money in this business. I know that from first hand experience. "that's so disturbingly presumptuous i don't know where to start." -dont. its fact. (see above) "how about the people that do want to be able to sell their records?" -last time I checked their records are still for sale if they want them to be. remember, you still don't know why M3rck is calling it quits AND its not like Bleep is going to stop selling their mp3s. "who the fuck are you to decide that they simply aren't entitled to do that by sabotaging their markets from your ivory tower? " -this isn't sabatoge. its a revolution. call me a creative communist if you like. I don't give a fuck. information should be free, esp. if its temporary. |
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actually, that sounds great. You've already included a new social outlet for gathering and communication in that idea. You should start a wiki about it. |
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let me know when your revolution wins. i can't wait to see this utopia you're going to create. |
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trust me I won't be alone. It's worth noting Capitalism is destined to fail. So its never to late to plan ahead. |
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What if the artists don't mind? I download and I buy what I can afford. I don't see a problem in that. |
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you're really just trolling, aren't you? |
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if it's the artists giving away their own music, there's nothing wrong with that at all. |
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i've got a total of 800mb of my music online as mp3s. i have a paypal donation button. i sometimes receive donations. every one of them is extremely appreciated. i have opened up a paypal-only webshop for selling the actual CDs released on deFocus, u-cover, psychonavigation, and merck. i sometimes sell copies to people who purchase them. every single one is extremely appreciated, although sometimes there is a delay, i might be too broke to pay for the postage. i will get them sent anyway. whenever i do a remix, or am on a compilation, i try to get copies of the records, or any merchandise, to sell on to people who want said records. i have done so continuously for merck-compilations, merck-remixcds, and merck-releases. merck has been instrumental in keeping food on my table, or assisting us so that my girlfriend isnt the only one who purchases the food. sometimes, i get to play gigs. i have played a total of 56 gigs between july2000 and october2005. i have a few lined up for the end of the year. when i do get paid (for 26 i have not been paid), i am extremely grateful for anything that i get. for paid, it seems to average at around 120e or so. i have tried to move on, and get at least 250 or 300eur for a gig - but most promoters are extremely broke, and there's flight and food to take into consideration. i have never been on a label that has organized an actual album-launch-tour, or any other type of tour. i hope one day this will happen. there have been times where i havent had a single cent more for rent, and right at the last week of the month, i get to play a gig for like 250e and manage to pay the missing rent. i would love to play more gigs. that is why amongst those 800mb are at least 2 live gig-recordings, and i intend to make more available by time. i also try to sell records at gigs. mostly no-one buys. but once, in france, 8 were sold. this was extremely great, and surprising, also. there would've been more, but i didnt think any would sell. next i took 25, but sold 0. |
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so i give away tons and tons of music, including live gig recordings and actual tracks, sometimes getting donations, etc, but even if i dont, they'll still continue to be hosted on various sites. i dont know what else i can do, except spend more time writing music and improving, and/or getting signed to another label. i havent been signed to a label for 3 years. defocus was the only label i was contractually signed to,but that is all long-gone. if someone buys my record on merck, from bleep, i will get something out of it. if someone buys my record on defocus, from bleep, well, i have not received anything out of that, yet, and i dont know what to do to make that happen. i cant afford to make phonecalls all the time. i just released an album on u-cover, 23rd of august, and i am now seeing it on soulseek. 1040 copies have been pressed of it, and it hasnt been listed in the uk or ireland, i.e., not on boomkat and all that. for me, right now, it is a bit of a bummer that BCC decided to release the record as mp3s. i have copies of it for sale on my webshop - and i have this awkward feeling that maybe people downloading it off of soulseek does not exactly mean that they are going to be sold faster. i didnt compile the album in order to get money. i am however now in the position where i will soon have another shipment of roughly 130 copies of the merck cd, and 25 copies of the u-cover cd. i will try to figure out how to get them sold on my webshop - but don't know what more i can do. i've been following these forum posts on various places, and have noticed that hardly anyone mentions me out of the merck artist-roster - and have realized that the reason is simply that people did not, in the end, like Showcase(merck015cd).i can accept that, and that's ok. i can live with that ;) dealing with merck as a person, as a music-lover who likes to release music, has been the best experience i have had with any label. he cares about the music, and he tries to help me since he realized what kind of a life i lead. |
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i have nothing but respect for him as a person, and for what he has established between 1999 and 2005, and what he will continue to do until the label dies. i am typing on a laptop that he helped freight to me, that i would not have had, if he wasnt interested in helping me out by taking it from the u.s. to the u.k. . i have never even met him. yet he still did that, and so many other things for me. i dont think i will be finding a label, or a person running a label, like that, anytime soon. but i could always be happily surprised. who knows. merck will be sorely missed, as a person in charge of sending me packages with tshirts, vinyls, cds, stickers, posters, postcards and whatever. i realize the forums are meant for easily taking people down a peg, and taking cheap pot-shots towards anything and anyone, but i am quite amazed at what people come up with. some of the posts on various forums have been oneliners that basically take some modicum of pleasure out of saying the most rancidly negative thing about said label, ever. kicking someone while they're down -stylee. i dont know about you, but i'd like to be remembered for a positive sentence instead of a 'meh im glad they're gone' -type drivel. but im just me -with the realization that all things come back to you, eventually, in some form. if you're paying attention. so, with that.. flame on, people. |
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Have you been living primarily on your music income or do you have another line of work? |
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i am an unemployed music bum. all that i listed, apart from maybe every once in a while getting paid for a remix, is how i try to survive. i dont have expensive rent, but it isnt exactly safe. a lot of my time is spent wondering and worrying about where the next meal is going to come from. all those mp3s will, hopefully within 2 weeks, be archived onto one big bittorrent/ed2k downloadable package, which will contain links to my paypal donation buttons and all that. i'm waiting to see what that amounts to, with some interest. also, my previous albums 'container' 'showcase' and 'spaces' will, before end of this year, be sold over various digital-distribution-shops, which i'm also waiting to see what that'll amount to - if anything. anything could happen. something might get licensed to something. or i might be commissioned to do something. anything is possible. i will continue to make music available for free, but also hope that the actual records will be bought - either from me, or from the shops. i somehow manage to live with providence - it is strange. one day things'll be ok.. |
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