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I notice one of your albums is available on Emusic. Have you gotten any money from Emusic downloads? |
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not consciously, i have gotten i think 40ukp for itunes and bleep from showcase. i realize that there are probably some people who have statements of sales mailed to them every month, or at least half a year.. or all that - but that hasnt happened in 4 years.. to be honest, i dont really think that all of these emusic etc places sell a significant amount of anything. but i can trust merck - if anything out of those trickles back to him, it'll find its way to me. |
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I pay Emusic 20 bucks a month for 90 downloads. It's a good deal for me but maybe not for the musician unless he has an album with lots of short songs - it works out to about 22 cents per track. Other places sell digital songs and albums for near-CD prices which I think is ridiculous. I might consider it if they sold in lossless format like Flac. Though Beatport has 320k mp3s and some of the out of print Monolake looks tempting... |
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The people who put in their time and labor into making a book / album / film / software program, etc from which you choose to benefit by reading / listening / watching / using, etc have to live in the same world as everyone else. Esaruho is an example of that, but so is anyone else like BOC, Autechre, whoever. People who produce intellectual property are not subsidized by some higher power, and are forced to sell the product of their time and energy just like everyone else in order to live. So why should any of us benefit from this without paying for it? By "benefit from it" I don't mean that it will necessarily make you a better person or that you will even enjoy it, but that you have chosen to consume it. Any smart seller should provide samples of their product to minimize buyer risk and allow the buyer to make an informed decision about buying something, but this doesn't mean that you should be able to consume the entire product and decide whether you would like to pay for it later on. I would rather live in a world where people with something creative to contribute can continue to do so. If no one buys their album it should be because no one likes their album, not because the market decided to download it for free. The lure of "free" things is hard to resist but it certainly is a real shortsighted mentality. You've got to give back if you receive something, and our free market system is the most practical way we have found to do that. |
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theres 2 remixes i made on beatport, under cobalt recordings.. and hopefully container/spaces/showcase will end up on beatport, also, but who knows. im not really ready to do a mp3-shop-sale-only ep or an album, because i have no proof that the actual promotional machine is there.. thats why the 3 album test-of-the-waters. suppose more will be known in about a year.. whether it was a working possibility, etc. meanwhile, i tried to get on bleep as a private artist - but no go, i'm guessing too low a profile / not knowing them personally would contribute to that. |
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I apprciate the fact that you took the time to write that all out. Its rare that we hear about the actual artists because most of them overlook the community with the exception of Johnny Hawk who has been one of the most accessable artists in the world. You see now that i see a human behind the name. A man who struggles day to day like me it makes me think more about my actions (downloading music). It makes me more compassionate. I mean hey if i had money to give I'd want to help you out based on your complete honesty. I've never heard your music but i hate to hear about someone struggling. But hey i am in it myself. I forgot where i was going with all of this but i appreciate you showing your human side and sharing your thoughts with us! Good Luck! :) |
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I was just wondering... for all the "boo hoo, you don't pay for mp3's" people out there, how much kracked software are you sporting on your machines at the moment? I mean, doing the math, assumming the average xltronic'r has about 5 to 10 g's in pirated information on their machine, this board has probably saved over a million dollars. If said amount was spent "paying back" artists, labels, and programmers, do you really think we'd be writing these messages under different circumstances? (I don't have the answer for that, its just a brain twister to ponder. Though ultimately, I dont feel like I am going to hell over this any time soon... ) |
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merck are no great loss to the great scheme of things |
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please, do elaborate... |
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if people realised that what is happenings with music (and movies, books, ... it's spreading fast) could prevent them from having GOOD things to read/listen to/watch, they'll stop promptly how do you think things evolve/improve? you need money for everything in this world (sad fact, but a fact nonetheless) people are not going to work their asses off to make some masterpieces for a couple of bucks because you can't eat then... (there are but they're few) the great artists of before all had "mecenes"(in english?) who paid for their lives because they recognised the genius in them... now we have a working system (working, not perfect) for compensating artists and if it goes away and everything is "free" you can be sure everything will turn to shit quickly and the argument that this kind of music spread thanks to p2p is certainly true to an extent, but warp didn't wait for soulseek to have comercial hits and worldwide recognition... |
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Again, that's based on the assumption that: a) The person could actually afford to buy it. b) The person would buy it, were it not available for free. I remember talking to someone here about buying a licenced copy of Reason and he explained it was something like 2 months wages in his country and he had hardly enough money to cover his rent, so buying it wasn't an option. Yes, you could say "you can't afford it, you can't have it", but that's really being a dog in the manager. How does a label benefit when a person who wouldn't buy it anyway has a copy? If anything, the person with a copy will spread news of the release/have friends who will hear it and go on to buy it. Unlike traditional theft which deprives someone else of the item that is stolen (ie you steal a bicycle, someone else can't have it), piracy is making a duplicate, without damaging the original. As someone else said, without P2P etc. labels like M3rck wouldn't of gotten so far. I lost a lot of respect for Ulrich Schnauss (particularly as he claimed to have communistic leaning in an interview) when he complained about his stuff being shared on soulseek. He became famous precisely because people were saying "check out this guy..." and people were then going off to Soulseek to have a listen and then went on to buy his releases (myself included). This is no different to using a listening post in store. We don't all read The Wire and then buy blind... The argument that we should (which it sounded like Rf40 was making earlier) is ludicrous and it's the artists who'd suffer if we all bought blind and always had. If you have £50 disposable income a month and spend £20 of that on music, should you not be able to pick what you spend it on? If I had to buy blind (at regular prices), I'd only consistantly buy releases by: Aphex twin, Boards of Canada, Portishead, Chemical Brothers and Prodigy. Those are literally the only acts. So, Ulrich Schnauss, etc. and all the other IDM B-listers, let alone people like M3rck, wouldn't get |
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maybe something else will have to change for this to sort itself out. honest question now. dont get stuck in the 'how's that supposed to happen' or 'yeah right thats utopia'.. if you can. would you be buying more records, and supporting artists, and going to gigs, and maybe even sorting out gigs yourself, if the majority , or at least - a significant sum, of your money wasn't going into any of these things: rent electricity heating water taxes based on owning a piece of land - and or any other taxes gasoline to power your car /anything else internet connection fees tv license ? |
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I really hate the idea of adding to this discussion, but I just had to say, I wasn't really critisicing this site in general, but it strikes me as wrong when people on a music messageboard make a point of talking shit about a label that is run out of love for music, and not out of money or ego. The guy(s) behind merck are releasing a specific kind of music because they want people to hear that kind of music, and wanted to make another avenue for people to hear it. Esaruoho had one story, but I am sure that there are a couple other instances of generosity that merck have shown other artists on their roster. Thats a cool way for a label to be run, and its shitty to see people so easily throwing around disrespect for a label that obviously warrents their respect, even if they don't like their music. And thats what I meant by losing its soul. There used to be more of that. Oh well. Its the internet :( |
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"would you be buying more records, and supporting artists, and going to gigs, and maybe even sorting out gigs yourself, if the majority , or at least - a significant sum, of your money wasn't going into any of these things:..." A very valid point. For me, in spite of music being probably my favourite hobby/recreation, it still remains that: a hobby- something I do for fun (I'm including making, collecting and listening to in this). Whilst it's very important to me and I'd far rather have a well equipped studio than pay tax, it's out of my hands and a large chunk of my money goes on tax. Similarly, I need somewhere to live (no point having a huge record collection if it's stored under a bridge and looted, right?), which again costs money. On top of that, there are a whole raft of things (transport, clothes, food, bills, tuition fees, etc.) that I have to spend money on. By that, I mean they are a neccessity, rather than just things I really really want. So, I have a limited amount of disposable income which is actually quite a small percentage of what I earn (probably around 7%). This money goes on going out to pubs/clubs, parties, videogames, cultural trips (theatre, cinema, museums), my holiday fund, motorcycling, etc. as well as music. The sad fact is that music is not essential to our survival (yes, even those who subscribe to the theory, "life without music would be a cruel joke") and consequently will never be as important as food, shelter, drinking water, etc. I know a lot of big music stars make a lot, because they appeal to popular tastes, but if you make niche music, like IDM, you're vying for a small percentage, of a a very small number of the populace's income, which other IDM labels/artists are aiming for. Unsuprisingly, only a few big artists make a good living out of it, a few dozen more scrape by, some people do remixing/djing to make up enough money to live on, a lot have to resort to day jobs. Why is this such a problem? |
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yes, I would. gladly. I buy what I can now and I've bought numerous albums and records because I've heard mp3s of those records beforehand, which I otherwise wouldn't have bought. I would imagine this works the same for a lot of people. there are ofcourse cretins who just download and burn to cd-r and that can kill an industry, but I wonder how many of them listen to the smaller labels. you also see a trend of sites offering whole cds up to listen - you can't download the music, but you can listen to the complete thing. a Dutch broadcast corporation (yet again the VPRO) has their own music site, 3voor12.nl and they have an online listening post, on which there are about 16 full albums you can listen to, changing each week. most recently I've been listening to Broadcast's new venture on there, for example. which means that these smaller labels also use a kind of 'download mp3s' system of their own choice - it is a wide variety of small to tiny labels that have albums showcased on there - they see it as a tool to promote their music, as a lot of people have already been doing by downloading mp3s. |
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in not too long a time i imagine it's very easy to dl full albums (as wave or flac).. |
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I get worried that, whilst I work pretty much full time, all my hilarious posts on this message board get read for free. Everyone, all over the world can come on here and enjoy my wry take on life, and I don't get a penny, whilst some arsehole writes lame gags for "Everybody loves Raymond" and gets paid billions. I was thinking that, say with the Premium Membership we pay for XLT, what if, in place of being able to post pictures, that membership enabled you to read the posts of the Top Quality Posters, like me. You could have bands of subscriptions. Silver level gives you access to Ecnadniarb, Gold - qrter, Platinum - Fleetmouse, Uranium - Me. It's just another way of looking at the economic model. |
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Does the "wooden spoon" level of membership, awarded to trolls, get you acess to WMW's posts? |
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i'm pretty sure that people would find a way to steal the premium posts without paying for a membership. also, i think that plumbum would be a more appropriate element to represent you, d_b. |
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I dont have anything bought or downloaded from M3rck, so dont blame me. But I do listen to theyr webradio, and it has some real nice tunes on it. |
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all in favor of blaming pf, say aye. |
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"Wooden Spoon" membership would mean you could only read wMw's posts. It's kind of like B7, but worse. But yeah, as plaidzebra says, it'd only take one bright spark with über level membership to copy and paste my posts for everyone to distribute for free. So I guess the only money is to be made by live appearances, actually going round peoples' houses and haranguing them about "the good ol' days" of electronic music. |
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I kinda regret not buying any of those tunes that I listened to in theyr radio, as I dont like the fact that a label like that is closing. |
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did merck actually say they're stopping because of low sales? I haven't read that anywhere. seems there are other reasons, especially based on rarndaraki's post. |
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it's already been acknowledged that there may be other reasons, it's just that the hot button issue is file sharing and the implications for labels like merck. nobody's interested in the fact that the merck people want to spend more time working on crochet cozies to cover their facial tissue dispensers. |
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hm, you couldnt have hometaped this obscure music |
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and there's me being all weird and on topic..! |
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"file sharing and the implications for labels like merck" is on topic, mostly. |
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Thats mostly my point and i think you summed it up quite well. Even though i havent had the money to buy certain releases i have opened my friends up to artists which have bought the albums |
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I understand where you are coming from. To be honest i havent heard much of anything from them. Maybe 1 album at the absolute most. I havent really seen their artists discussed let alone the label. Thats where the quality issue comes in i guess. But i do understand what you are saying. |
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"Unlike traditional theft which deprives someone else of the item that is stolen (ie you steal a bicycle, someone else can't have it), piracy is making a duplicate, without damaging the original." Hey Ceri JC, Just want to point out that with intellectual property, the physical component is usually considered only a delivery means. That is to say that the value of the item is not really attached to the physical material that houses it. When you consume a duplicate, you still end up consuming the part of the product or property that is considered valuable, without paying for it. Let's not have any illusions about that. So, the issue with intellectual property theft is not that you are depriving someone else from having it (even though on a large enough timescale and with enough occurrences, you prevent the creator of the product from producing more), the issue is that you are reducing the paying demand for that property in consuming a copy and potentially allowing more copies of it to exist out there on the internet which will be consumed without equal compensation to the artist. |
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I want to be honest with you here because perhaps a different perspective will help here...... This is a small genre! Wake up! Johnny Hawk just got a fulltime job! IDM is not fruitful unless you are a top dog. There are so many labels/net labels it is hard to tell the difference unless you put out ultra quality! Thats the music industry for ya! You cant just expect to make a living off of it and especially for such a small genre. There is pressing costs, distribution costs etc etc. I mean can this really be a shock? Knowing you browse other message boards and perhaps noticed the spam of users you may have noticed that there is alot of quality material from many artists that arent signed. Just about everyone at these boards had their stab at trying to make music and just about everyone is a critic. What you are doing is not unique here. Once again i must reiterate that this genre is small. You will spend more money on making your music, distributing your music ..... perhaps you are in a position where you must ask yourself "Is this worth it" and or "Can i make a living off of this hobby". Sure it would be nice but it seems unrealistic in your situation. I dont want to come down on you here or be a stumbling block but there are certain things one must keep in mind especially if you are having troubles making rent and relying on others in this position. |
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Well, I used to be in the same situation as him, except I was scoring films for students. You rarely ever got paid, although a lot of people would give you packs of cigarettes. Although two days worth of work for 15 minutes of audio didn't justify the two packs you would usually get. Most sound designers get paid $100 per minute of audio (minimum) for contract work (unless they do commercials, where then they get paid per commercial). If he wants to make money at this, he is sending demos to the wrong places. Eventually you have to choose between homelesness and music. However, things might be different in finland. |
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sorry, I mean you have to choose between homelesness & music, or working more hours |
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I agree that the media is merely a means of transmission of the IP (hence why it's acceptable that even large corporations regularly use CD-r copies of software for convenience, rather than "offical media" and just pay the licencing based on the number of copies used). However, the point that you're not depriving someone else of an actual copy by pirating it remains. Yes, you're consuming it without paying for it and if you would of bought it otherwise, you're depriving the developer of the fee for doing so. But, if you wouldn't of bought it otherwise and don't distribute it to someone who would of (who doesn't because of the copy you've provided them with), I still fail to see where the "loss" has occured. I'm not advocating piracy, I'm simply trying to clarify that despite what Ms. Spears et al say, piracy is not "exactly the same as walking into a store and walking out with a CD without paying for it", because it isn't. |
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would of. |
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"Would of" what? |
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you use "would of" instead of "would have". |
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Fair point. |
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is it really that hard for the guys at merck to do their maths. they have struggled to sell 1000 copies of most of their releases since inception, now their stuff is available thru itunes & bleep there is the potential for more hard copies being left unsold. piracy is not to blame, piracy has always existed and always will. |
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sending demos to wrong places - maybe, but, just givin up and getting a job is hardly the solution to that - where's the impetus to find the right place, if you're already keeping your head above the water yourself? besides, once things work themselves out, any which way, at least it'll feel justified after the relatively easy work done - its never been that hard, and even if it were to become harder, it'd still be worth more to me than stacking consumer products onto shelves. i'll stick by this through thick&thin - and nowhere does it say that it can't work out - except maybe people around you, and people on the internet. i'd rather be goin around with expectant "anything at all could happen the next second" positivity than hopeless "oh nothing'll ever happen better get a job and start saving for a house" negativity. |
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and now it seems like a good time to point out yet again that merck did not report that they were going to fold because of piracy or financial problems. |
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there is a place inbetween the positivity and negativity you describe - it is called reality. you have brought out music that doesn't sell very well, even within the parameters of the IDM genre (whatever that is), as I understand it and it could be because of people sharing mp3s of your music and not buying hard copies, but it could also be because people do not like the music (not trying to be mean here, just realistic). you keep saying things like "once things work themselves out" but the thing is things won't work themselves out - you'll have to do it. nobody is saying you should stop making music or stop trying to live off of your music, you could perhaps get a parttime job and still keep working on the music, you could go on as you are doing now, it's your choice ofcourse. you seem to think too much in 'black and white' terms, it's either the one or the other. being passionate does not necessarily mean spending all your time on something. |
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i'm not sure if anyone has thought of this yet, but perhaps this is a brilliant way to make piles of cash. if "there will be no more represses" than people will probably start buying up soon to be out-of-print releases (especially vinyl) like mad. eh? |
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beside the question whether piracy is or is not to blame - yes, piracy will always exist, but that doesn't make it okay. and there is certainly a difference with piracy in the past - it is much more easily and readily available. |
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hey, i didn't say it was okay either. but it still exists and a small record label has to take that into account. |
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yes, it may be a brilliant ploy to make piles of cash. i think lackluster, in the grand scheme of things and given the vast quantity of electronic music being produced, probably sells a greater than average quantity of records. but there is such a huge volume of music being produced and released, 99% of releases (some good, some bad) are lost in the shuffle. too many artists, too much music, not enough time or money or demand. piracy hurts but its just one problem among many facing small electronic labels. it probably is unrealistic to believe that one can support oneself entirely by making this music. |
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Yeah absolutely. I can also appreciate the passion here from the artist. See esaruoho you may actually have it easier doing it where you are as opposed to where i live. In the states there is a smaller crowd for this genre as opposed to the UK area (or overseas for that matter). But my whole point here was.. even you said that you noticed that people were not discussing your music. Before this thread i havent even heard of your nor have i really looked into this label. As much as one can gig and attempt to play live you have to step back and look at the scene as a whole. Ask yourself questions like "what kind of crowd am i aiming at?" and or "How big is the actual fanbase in relation to the possible turn out in a given area?". You say and i quote "and nowhere does it say that it can't work out - except maybe people around you, and people on the internet." Do you realize that you are a small percentage of artists trying to make it as an artist. This is not a unique situation. Therefore realistically not everyone can make it. By "make it" i mean support ones self from the fruits of their hobby. I know you dont want to work a crummy 9 to 5 job it sounds like but dont go through half of your life setting yourself up for something that may not benefit you and then all of a sudden you are like 29 broke and realize you need a actual job. "Artist/Musician" doesnt really look that good on a job application. I mean what contacts could a possible employer find? What kind of information and or conclusion would they come to upon seeing this. Just some ideas and thoughts... dont rule out anything and always be prepaired. |
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It could but that only seems to work with labels like skam, warp, rephlex because they already have established artists on there and some of their fanbase are hardcore collectors. Collectors would just get something because its of limited press. I think that our fanbase is becoming more aware of this cheap marketing ploy and its loosing value. I mean if this were the case then you would see more labels doing a limited number of presses (100-300) and making more money and selling out.In the end it still comes down to quality and word of mouth for the label. As for the rest of your post i think you are totally dead on! I really cant disagree with it but there is such a huge volume of music being produced and released, 99% of releases (some good, some bad) are lost in the shuffle. too many artists, too much music, not enough time or money or demand. piracy hurts but its just one problem among many facing small electronic labels. it probably is unrealistic to believe that one can support oneself entirely by making this music." |
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have you considered a career as a career counselor? |
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