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 Now online (1)recycle ...and 182 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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anyways, i took this photo of the on sunday, and now dedicate it to alll those effected by it.. i didn't think it become this poignant within a week. |
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Exaph, i don't know where to start on your penultimate post.. it is wrong and misinformed on so many levels. the US armed iraq.. maybe you should remember that.. |
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Saddam was a ruthless bollix. His sons were sadistic bastards as well, and rapists. None of them were terrorists in the normal sense of the word. Yes, Iraq needlessly invaded kuwait in the 80s with weapons (chemical and biological...) provided by the US. Immediately began the UN sanctions and the Gulf War. After the war, Iraq was crippled, was without reasonable defense (i'm not saying more arms should have been given to the bastard, i'm just stating the facts) and there were thousands of ordinary people dieing of hunger. I'll now answer your last question, since its answer is related to what I just said - what to do with Saddam? The obvious thing to do is to do what the US have done throughout central American countries and, indeed, countries all over the world, when a unfavourable, often very popular regime (socialism, what? we can't have that...) takes hold: fund terrorists and revolutionaries who are living there and want change. I can give you links to documentation of lots of instances of the US doing this. The reason they didn't do it in Iraq is that it would have left an Iraqi-decided government in charge, and not some puppet government which would make nice economic and oil deals with the US. And don't bring up the Iraqi elections because they were an absolute farce -- less than 1/3 of all Sunnis turned out to vote due to intimidation. The last point to address - the hostage takers springing up from the smoke... Seriously, think about it. Where do you think they came from? It's inevitable that this was going to happen - an enormous influx of mujahideen from the Arabic world. What better incentive for a budding extremist than pictures of Iraq getting bombed, Arabs killed, Arabs holed up in Guantanamo bay, Arabs tortured in various sick ways, the Koran desecrated? Everything the Americans and British are encountering now is their own (mainly the Americans - Brits have more experience with how to treat victims of imperealism) fault. |
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I didn't relate my third paragraph back. IDIOT. What I meant was, the obvious thing to do would be to fund and arm revolutionaries and have the regime overthrown from within - instead of starving the entire population and extinguishing any hope or possibility at all of a revolution. |
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i take that point. mistrust? |
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who are you redressing? |
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The problem with regime change and enforced "democracy" is just that. It is enforced, and done for Iraqs rich oil reserves not for the iraqi people. People don't blow themselves up for no reason. They blow themselves up because their families have been murdered by American bombs in a frankly cowardly compaign by the US and British forces. If we marched into Basra and Bagdad they would have welcomed us with welcome arms. Instead we bombed supposed "military targets" in heavily populated residential areas killing countless men, women and children(and they haven't even been bothered to count and honour the dead). Saddams nuclear and military might was always exagerrated by him to hold onto power and anyone who knew anything about Iraq pre-2002 knew this. Our leaders fabricated information and played to our fears so they could rob iraq of it's rich natural resources which should be for the iraqi people and them alone. The solution to removing Saddam was heavy political pressure which was being applied by the UN with the successful but irresponsibly cut short weapons inspections. We should have helped arm the Kurdish insurgants in the north and encourage an uprising from within. Iraq although under a brutal regime was a fairly harmonious society with a proud history of education and medical excellence. I personally believe saddams regime at the time of the invasion was pretty impotent and no more or less oppressive than many of the other governments in the region, which the US/UK have overlooked and infact supported! (Uzbekistan gets 500m a year and has a former COMMUNIST dictator in charge / Saudi Arabia a kingdom which opresses women to a medieval degree / Isreal, a state borne out of terrorism which has been given a modern army and HAS nuclear weapons but won't admit it ) Seriously fucked up our world is |
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very good points tom, so you agree though that he should have been removed? |
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i was addressing you with my posts. and myself with the 'idiot' remark. i'd appreciate a response. |
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Theres is a different culture. What about Islam Karimov and King Fahd of Saudi Arabia? |
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no worries, i was going to respond, just trying to understand what you are saying. but yeah, fair points, i can totally see that. although i cant think of a time when the us have adopted the tactics you say you have links for. i still maintain that terrorists dont grow overnight; but yes i understand their contempt for the west probably accelerated their activity.. the approaches you suggest for removing saddam are surely much more risque though? do you think blair had our best interests at heart? always seems to trace back to us incompetence.. |
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Why pull weapons inspectors out? why rush into war? why go under the WHOLE international community? (other than a handful of sycophantical countries like bulgaria and spain) OIL |
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Sorry to jump in the conversation in the middle like this, but i find it really disturbing that someone could honestly believe that "Blair had our best interests at heart" when going to war in Iraq. It's all about £ $ € |
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I never suggested terrorists grow over-night.. America has been arming Israel for decades, for example. When it comes to a head like this, and there's so much fucked up shit going on, people are bound to turn radical. The methods I suggested are tried and tested by America.. in Chile, Nicaragua, Colombia, Haiti, Cambodia... of US military interventions since 1945. quite a few. I'll find a Chomsky lecture in which he details some of these atrocities and give you a link or something. |
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This whole debate makes me feel sick because they are getting away it and there is little hope.. if they try and go into Iran they are going to lose badly |
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to quote myself with the emphasis added; do you think blair had our best interests at heart? |
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over 50 deaths |
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ok, i'll have a look at that, it really interests me. cheers. but isnt it one thing to try and bomb military targets and another to blatently blow up the innocent, with that intent? are we regarding this and 9/11 as totally unrelated btw? |
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Colombia - http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200412--.htm Haiti - http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20040309.htm General (i reccomend this) - |
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Oh, this isn't just military targets.. this is hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. |
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Thats speculation.. prove that! There may be some yes, but how many? The keyword here is intent anyway. |
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:rustic: you have to read about the torture and mistreatment done by saddam before you can call him "impotent" - he was a savage (in many ways) and therefore needed to be removed not to say that my president (ugh i hate saying that) isnt himself, im sure he eats souls for dinner, but saddam was ruling with a physical iron fist most democracies dont he needed to be removed, dont ask me how, im not smart enough to know a peaceful / useful way of doing it - all i know is he is one bad mama-jama on another note - our hearts go out to london - having family who was and some who still are british i feel for you - and all level headed americans feel for you a shame... |
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Corporal punishment exists in America.. do you not think that is a little backwards? |
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sorry not corporal loil, capital |
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I don't know what to say: whether to express obvious sorrow over what's occured in the beautiful (if labyrinthine) city of London, or to tackle the muddy reasons for the current states-of-affairs that have led to the animosity that literally exploded in our faces yesterday. I agree with much of what redrum etc have said. Here's my ten cents' worth: It's a civil war between Christian, Jewish, Islamic and Secular fundamentalists: Bush and to some extend Blair belong to the first group, while Israelite Zionists to the second, together with their cohorts, U.S. "born-again" evangelists like Falwell or John Ashcroft (these goyim jews). The third group consists of the Bin-Ladenists and mullahs and ayatollahs and mujahadiins and shahids (=martyrs) of the Mid-Eastern or Far-Eastern variety. They've been receiving money and support from groups one and four, including weapons (either directly or via trade-offs like Iran-Contra or the Halliburton subsidiaries). The fourth group consists mostly of secular Marxists, ex-Trotskyists (like practically all of the Neo-Cons like Wolfowitz, Strauss, Horowitz etc.), imperial supremacists (the elder Bush, Reagan, Teddy Roosevelt), bleeding-heart globalist liberals (Clinton) and business tycoon McWorldists (Murdoch, Cheney, Rumsfeld), not to forget geopolitical hawks like Condoleeza Rice. ... Then there's the lazy-brained mixed breed Texan variety: An aristocrat at birth, a former drug-addict, a born-again fundamentalist Christian, an inheritor to corporate wealth, a hyper-conservative social fascist - namely G.W.Bush. I'm just saying all these groups are rather dimwitted and bastardly. They have one thing in common, too: They resort to short-sighted violence. |
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It's not speculation, it's fact. The US has been chastised by the UN Security Council many times for its warcrimes, but vetos every resolution, so you never get to hear about it. |
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do you remember when people thought pictures like these were funny? |
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No, can't say i do.. :o |
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If its fact then you should be able to give me an exact number. |
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“We don’t do body counts” --General Tommy Franks, US Central Command I'll find a good chomsky lecture, as I promised, where he goes through these atrocities once I have the time. He does a far better job at talking about this stuff than I ever could. |
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well, they never were. |
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Or even, fuck this - how's about you spend some time doing a bit of research yourself, Exaph? It's obvious you could use it. I'm not wasting my fucking time educating one single ignorant randomer on the internet. |
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THe problem is a lot of people have these strong very conservative views without knowing any of the details .. |
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thank fuck you lot are so well informed, because you have done a body count. get fucked, i didnt want to argue.. i guess if you had been travelling the underground a couple of days ago you'd feel fucking differently. im off. |
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I didn't want to argue either, I just got pissed off by your vapidity. I think I've shown myself to be a hell of a lot more informed than you, with your "OMG FUCKING MUSLIMS THOSE PRICKS WILL BURN IN HELL"-esque post. yes i fucking know that's not what you wrote but it was just as racist and IGNORANT. |
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I was on the underground his morning and every day other than weekends |
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"i guess if you had been travelling the underground a couple of days ago you'd feel fucking differently." why's that then? |
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yeah what happened on wednesday? |
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I don't think 'IRA' and 'decency' are compatible terms. |
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Glad to hear no bad news so far from the people here. I thought of you guys when I had heard the news. |
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