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Hi folks, a question for the music makers who are really into their production values: Are there any hard and fast rules about the order in which you should apply the mastering FX (EQs, Compressors and Reverb). When using them for mastering, as opposed to as part of the fx chain itself, I always add them after the other effects, but I'm not sure if there is a particular order that generally works well? I tend to compress lightly, eq, reverb and then compress again. I've read lots of tutorials on mastering and they seem to focus on each aspect rather than combining them and in what order. Any advice much appreciated. Ta. |
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I normally compress each individual instrument if it needs compressed. And I usually always do the effetcs such as reverb before mastering. I tend to master in Sound Forge where I can edit the overall EQ and compression and levels. I do mix in my sequencer program though to get the correct instrument levels. It just depends how you like to work. I don`t think there is a set way. As long as the levels are good when mixing down using speakers then all should be fine with the recording. |
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sf6.0 and stienberg spectralizer (direct x plugin) is what ive used lately also ozone masting plugin is very good as well |
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masting = mastering |
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Ah, I swiped a copy of SF6 (I've used previous versions) from uni for a mate the other day. I'll try it out myself... I've used Nuendo to master in the past, but recently I've been a bit lazy. I'll check out the ozone mastering tool as well. Cheers. |
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I've been reading about it lately and the most common way I've read is to solo the bass line and get that fader, close your eyes and set it to a level that Sounds right. The follow suit with the other parts. Always just using your ears. I'm gonna test it out soon... |
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oh and I popped a bit of post in the postbag for you :D I put 2 free gifts in it that are Soooo useful! Yet incredibly you;kk be so unimpressed. I LOVE IT! |
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Ah thanks, the track I've taking my time over at the moment has a nice distinctive bassline, so I'll try that out. |
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damn, this is the second time that i've clicked this thread thinking it was going to be about masturbating! |
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so wanking affects short-term memory after all then? |
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yeah...apparently |
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in a similar thing to this thread i would also recommed CD architect |
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can anyone direct me to some good tutorials on mastering? or any kind of reading on how to master properly... |
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great resource for mastering/etc/etc/etc: (not masterbation) http://www.futureproducers.com/ |
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i generally use compression only on my drum/percussion tracks because they tend to cause the most clipping. then i try to mix everything down to a point where nothing is peaking too high above anything else (unless it's supposed to). then i do minor eq adjustments, and widen the stereo using T-racks or soundforge. then i normalize as a last step in soundforge to bring the whole track's volume up to a "standard" level. i pretty much use the same normalize setting on all my tracks with a few minor adjustments to suit the specific track. |
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whats the stereo widening function in Soundforge? |
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oh sorry, that's in T-racks but a simple little trick for stereo widening is, take the wave for one channel, just the left or just the right. select it, and drag the entire thing forward a tiny tiny bit, like .005 seconds. when you play both channels back together, this off-set will make the mix sound wider. this is because your ear is hearing one channel a microsecond before the other, your brain interprets this as wider stereo. the more you drag it forward, the wider it will sound but at some point, you will start to hear the separation and it kinda ruins the effect. |
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Yes, you can get "vast" stereo range (particularly useful on strings) using <25ms delay on one channel. |
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Or a better way: mix 3 or fewer channels with each delayed slightly and each differently panned. In addition give them another EQ settings. |
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Doesn't that just give a richer, more orchestral sound, as opposed to a purely wider stereo one? |
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What do you mean 'purely wider stereo'? |
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Mastering's my day job actually - I master all the UK punk stuff on labels like All Star and Tsutoya. Most important thing is to get your monitoring environment as good as possible - Studio monitors are okay, but usually too bass light and with too much top-end - So sometimes using a pair of decent hi-fi speakers aswell is the best option if you're on a budget - Then go between the two... I use everything from £2k Genelec's down to the cheapest multimedia speakers... If you're working with software make sure you've got all the Waves plug-ins - You just need the EQ's and compressors - The Waves mastering stuff is crap. Usually, for electronic music: single-band Compressor, EQ, multi-band noise gate, multi-band compression, multi-band stereo expansion/narrowing, multi-band enhancers, multi-band limiting, single-band brick-wall limiting... Right, no pro's ever use ready made mastering plug-ins/software - What you want to do is setup a system in something like Logic/Nuendo... Take your finished stereo mix - Put it on channel 1 in your sequencer - Insert a good compressor and good EQ plug-in (like Waves Phase Linear Broadband)... Don't send that channel to the mix (i.e. don't send it anywhere, instead of Output 1-2 just turn it off), but set the aux sends 1-3 to 0db's... Then on Send 1 get an EQ plug-in, filter out everything except the top-end - A sharp EQ to cut out everything below 6khz - Send 2 filter everything out except the mid-range - So one filter killing everything above 6khz, one killing everything below 120hz... Cut a (very)long story short, you've compressed & EQ'ed your mix - Now you've got it split into top, mid, and bass - Now you can add any plug-ins you want to individual bands - Then put your final limiter on the master out... PSP's Vintage Warmer seems to have a better brickwall limiter than Waves L1/L2 - So that's a good choice as your final plug-in. There's a lot more to it - But that's the basics - Usually you widen the top-end stereo, and narrow th |
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Oh yea, you're best not using straight stereo phaseing in mastering - Waves Stereo Imager is a better choice - Straight stereo phase delays completely ruin music if it's ever played on MTV/radio/often on club PA's... Because most club PA's are actually mono! |
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whats your thought on harmonic exciters? |
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I use them sometimes - I've not found much in software I like too much though... Steinberg's Mastering package has got this Spectralizer thing which is quite useful! Can end up a little too digital sounding if you over-do it though. PSP's Vintage Warmer has got pretty good valve style exciters - Definetly the best bass enhancers I've heard in software... In fact, for simple mastering I'd definetly recommend Vintage Warmer above anything else I've tried... Along with Waves Phase Lin EQ... Aphex harmonic exciters seem to have a big edge over software though - Although I think there's a plug-in version - Not tried it though. I use exciters on about half the things I do - You often don't need them if you're using valve gear though. |
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J Swift - what plugins do you recommend? Which are of the best quality? I use Waves... Have you ever used Reason? Is it possible to master track there? |
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It's possible in Reason yeah, but I think the digital summing isn't quite up to Logic (not tried it myself, but that's what I've heard) - So it may not sound quite as true to the original... Plug-ins I use are: Waves Phase Linear Broadband (from the Waves Mastering Package) - I use it for filtering out frequencies and for general EQ'ing. Waves Renaissance EQ - Sometimes I use this instead - It's less transparent, but got more tone - You could use either... Waves Renaissance Compressor is usually the only compressor I use - But things like Waves C1 are equally useful, just a little more clinical maybe. Waves Stereo Imager+ Use it for multiband M-S matrix processing - So widening top-end and limiting bass end.. Waves L2 - Sometimes I use this for multiband limiting - So I'll have three open at once - Although at the moment I'm prefering: PSP Vintage Warmer - Mainly for the brickwall limiter and tape saturation/valve driver - Not as a multiband compressor! Also Steinberg's Freefilter is a good annalyser for setting up the cross-overs and checking the balance of final mixes - You can try sending whitenoise through the multiband and making sure the cross-overs aren't overlapping... And Steinberg's Spectralizer is a pretty good exciter... Think that's all I use plug-in wise! Sontius do the best all-in-one multi-band compressor I've found, but it's still not as good as making your own. |
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Ta for the advice Swift, top stuff. I've got PSP vintage warmer and I agree, it's one of the best software compressors I've used. One more thing, I'm considering getting a (cheap) mixer (probably a 8/12 channel behringer)... would the EQs on that be better enough than software to justify the added aggro of sending each track seperately to the mixer? I've not got a multiple out soundcard, so it'd mean lots of plugging/unplugging on each track. Cheers. |
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Hmm... that's a tough one... Personally, I love using a mixing desk - I'd prolly recommend something like a Soundcraft M-8 or E-8 or something... The EQ's not amazing or anything, but it can add a lot more tone and presense than software EQ, which is really useful if you're using softsynths. I'm just using a cheap M-Audio card with 8 outs at the moment - The quality seems fine - Cost about £190 I think. But yeah, it's quite a big step and quite a lot of hassle - One of the best things about it is that you can use hardware reverb - You can pick up a cheap Lexicon MPX100 and it'll destroy most software reverb... Tough one though! It's quite a big move... And it's definetly best if you can get yourself a card with a bunch of separate outputs cos it makes mixing much more hands-on... I guess it depends a lot on the kind of sound you're going for - I'm more into the Boards of Canada, Future Sound of London kind of sound, so I like to use analog EQ - But for the Drukqs/Snares sound you can get by fine just using software for mixing. |
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swift: erm.. can you explain that a little simpler? I've never understood what, when I'm EQ'ing, I'm supposed to get in the end. I'm confused about.. just about EVERYTHING you said. Do you have any good resources for learning stuff like that? Any recommended books or something? (i've only got reason, acid and soundforge, by the way...) |
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Hehe yeah it's a tough one to cover in a single post like that! A lot of people recommend Bob Katz' books about mastering - Although they're a little too general and technical - Not really focusing enough on technique or how to set these things up... Future Music asked me to do a proper article on it a little while ago, but I kind of fell out with the editor so I'm not sure if it's gonna happen. Luckily it's not something you really have to worry about too much - If you're releasing on a proper label you'll usually have an experienced mastering engineer take care of this stuff... But it can be good to learn just to polish your own stuff up... The idea of EQ'ing again in mastering is so you get a second perspective on your mix... When you record your studio mix you want to get it sounding as good as possible... Then, after you've finished and had time to distance yourself from it a bit, you can listen to it very critically on a decent monitoring system - Maybe on a whole bunch of different speakers - You can just tweak the EQ a little... Maybe there's not quite enough bass - Maybe the mid-range sounds too harsh, etc... So in mastering you only really want to tweak the tone of your finished track - Sometimes you'll just be adding 1/2 a db here and there... And also, if you're mastering a whole album, you can use EQ to help the tracks sit together better - Some tracks may have more bass than others and have been recorded in different studios, and things like that... It's tough though, the only way to learn is to get loads of hands-on experience - And good monitors. |
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i was going to say something here but J Swift wrote out pretty much most of the basic stuff i guess.. |
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post it |
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thanks for the info! mastering is something i have been really concentrating on in the last couple years but i'd say i'm still only marginally skilled at it. i've mostly been trying to learn by experimentation but these pointers will really help me. can you recommend some resources for me to study? you mention this Bob Katz fellow, but is there anything else? Mastering for Dummies or some shit? thanks in adavnce. |
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ok. we use a home-studio, and it works fine, but sometimes the sound comes out muddled (other times, though, the sound comes almost ready-to-go-EQ'd). Don't know what does it. Has anyone got any tips on how we should make the setup, by the way? We've got a Behringer Eurorack MX 602A with a Shure instrument microphone, a Line6 guitarport and a V-amp. (And some gitars, a bass, a didjeridoo, mouthharp, djembe, violin, and lots of other instruments.. but the instruments aren't important right now) The mixer goes into a computer, and I'm wondering how the volume should be set through the way... Should the volume be as high as possible until the last instance or something? we never get any reading on the small green lights on the mixer 'cause the sound is so low, and that seems strange... |
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hey, is that v-amp that little pocket sized thing? do you like it? i need a little inexpensive amp for my bass guitar and there is a bass v-amp i've had my eye on. |
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I don't think there's been much of any use written on mastering! Same goes for sound engineering in general - The Bob Katz books are the only things I know of, but they're very much focused on how to master typical pop/classical types of music... Dance & electronic music has sort of evolved its own rules... But at the end of the day you can't beat an experienced engineer with some awesome monitors and an amazing quality EQ & compessor - Like a Manley Massive Passive & Vari-mu - Ideal for mastering... All this multiband stuff can work wonders, but it's not always the sound you're going for - Multi-band compression works best for more dancey music - It's over-used in drum & bass and house music - But I don't think it's so important for your typical IDM stuff... It's mostly about getting the tone perfect... |
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Right, if I use a mixing desk, I'll mainly use it to mix down from the computer... So I'll have a soundcard with maybe 8 outputs, and have each output going into a mixer channel so I can mix and EQ things separately - And usually record onto a separate CD Recorder or DAT from the desk... I can also have real reverbs and fx patched into the desk. I'd also have my external instruments and things like the Line6 plugged into other mixer channels - And maybe an aux send or group buss going back into the computer so I can record anything I want from the desk into the computer easily... Yeah you want everything as loud as possible Without any clipping or distortion - So peaking at 0db's really - You can usually use solo switches or monitors to check the levels aren't clipping atall... But luckily it doesn't matter so much with analog gear... With digital gear, everytime you drop 6db's you lose 1 bit of sound quality - So a 16-bit recording can easily become a 14 or 15-bit one if the levels aren't high enough... With analog gear you'll get more noise with low levels, but it's not usually too significant... You get a lot of noise with digital gear too. |
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Yes- I really like lexicon stuff. I've got a lexicon card here (although I can't use it in my current music machine for techincal reasons :( ) I use their s/w (PSP 84) for some of my reveb, but I can't get it to sound anywhere near as good as hardware. I like the reason reverb (RV7000), it's suprisingly good for how simple it is to use. At the moment it's a toss up between more DJing equipment or studio gear, so I'll just have to wait and see how far down the hardware mastering route I want to go. |
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I know that clipping on analog isn't so bad (and can even sound like half decent distortion) as digital, but do analogue desks have those "clipping lights" (like reason does... that has made me a bit lazy, I must admit)? |
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Yeah my desk's got 'em - I don't know about all desks though - I think most Mackies prolly have them... The only problem with me using a desk and everything is that I have to record everything down to a separate CD Recorder... You prolly could record straight back into your computer, but I always get glitches if I do that - Maybe with a better soundcard/computer. I don't think a desk helps too much with mastering, but it does make mixing a lot easier! If I'm mastering something I'll usually keep it all digital... Unless I'm working in a decent studio then I'll go analog - But like an analog mastering console is nothing like a mixing desk - They're crazy big metal boxes with maybe five giant light-up buttons and a few meters and dials. (Finally made a ship I'm happy with in F-Zero the other day! Gonna try and unlock some of those hidden courses - Hopefully without having an aneyurism!) |
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Oh yeah, should point out, desk EQ isn't the right kind of sound for mastering atall... It's really good for mixing - Great for adding tone and stuff... But for mastering you really want a high-end analog EQ (like a Focusrite, Manley, etc... TLAudio and Joe Meek do good affordable ones too), or a very transparent digital one, like Waves Phase Linear. |
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Glad to hear you're doing well on F-zero... I've built a ship for speed that is great on the simple "loop" type tracks... no good in races though, too fragile and the cornering stinks. I reckon White Cat still reigns supreme overall :) I came 2nd on that jump one the other day. Robbed by a boosting cpu player at the last second. Ah, I may put off getting a 8 channel mixer then, I was only really looking into it if it would be good for mastering AND chaining devices. |
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Haha yeah! I came second on that really hard race too, just before christmas - Have been too angry to try it again! I think he beat me with a boost in the last few seconds too! I've heard rumours that Toft are going to release a really nice line of affordable desks - Really stripped down and basic, but with incredibly high quality EQ's - Should blow away Mackie 8-busses and pretty much everything under £10k from what I've heard... Nothing definite though! And nothing on their web site about it either... TLAudio do an 8-channel valve desk with an amazing EQ too... Unfortunately it's stupidly expensive - But that'd prolly be great for mastering... |
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could you maybe put out two small samples of something that is "before" and "after" you've eq'd and stuff? if you make music of your own, you can post the mastered/eq'd and the unmastered version? |
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Is it necessary to cut out top end [>20kHz] and lowest bass [let's say <30Hz]? What about DC offset - it is not audible, but does it cause problems? MaxxBass - worth to use? |
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The bass under 30hz can be worth having, valve and transistor amps pick it up well. |
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when eq'ing BEFORE mixing (like, you have one guitar-track, one bass, and one drum-track), is it so that you want to eq AWAY the low freq's from the guitar and eq away the high ones from the bass, while the drum should just be distorted until it sounds like a drum? that is the general impression i've gotten from various articles on the web... |
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Yes, but freqs <30Hz have high energy while they sound quietly - you cannot rise overall volume when miximizing, they are like unwanted 'dark matter', maybe cut lower [<15-20Hz]? I like damn deep bass - check out the beginning of 'Prayer for England' Massive Attack, how did they do that?! wow! |
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some places say that you should roll off some low rumbling at 300khz, but when I do, if that IS what I'm doing (I use an EQ, and i lower the volume around the 300khz-area), it just sounds... strange! |
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