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back when, if you put a data CD into your ghettoblaster and rocked track 01, it's... well, loud? because track 01 is the data track is it possible to [1. take a song in FLAC format 2. dump that onto a dub plate in the same way, so 3. someone has to rip the vinyl, dump to a file, and rename to .FLAC to hear the song] and then sell that for a lot of money as an art piece? asking for mermaidman |
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i got it m8. we put a donk on a donk, and then encode it as a FLAC in a FLAC and email it to the factory |
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what way of encoding the data if FLAC is maximally compressed, and you choose some way of encoding data into sound that is optimal, i reckon you may be able to fit a second or two... absolutely no basis for this, total guess... ask on stackoverflow or something people there will tell you exactly how big the record needs to be |
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they used to have records affixed to magazines back years ago with data on, before floppies were a thing.... cannae think of examples now, think they were games ... anyone know? |
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ah yeah not as good as bone records |
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Ps. if u wanna bend ur mind a bit, look into how LLMs are related to lossless compression... some dudes recently did a PoC using fuckin gzip |
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oh, you're dead on. but i've been here quite a while already! i've joked LLMs finally made it possible to download the internet... remember that? can you download the internet onto a floppy for me? now a fair portion of it can fit on a USB stick before that, i decided: language is compression. the brain compresses everything because even with doing this, it is a power-hungry, heat-belching monster of an organ. this is why it's hard to get people to revisit previous conclusions; consider new opinions: unpacking that requires energy ...however, the gzip thing is new. have a link? do you think .htaccess is turing-complete? asking for phobiazero. |
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was just looking at it https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/27zksf/theoret ically_what_is_the_data_capacity_of_a/ summary: you could totally fit a FLAC on here. data disk: yeah, that's an obvious thot (tape data audio). but we have better tech now and reddit agrees. having it play modem noises would be hilarious but this would come out sounding more like you played a data CD the biggest issue is how people will un-can the FLAC from the vinyl. you could provide a custom bit of software, but it would be much more entertaining for all if you could post instructions with links to open-source tools (and good luck lads! no tech support) because someone will post a torrent of it within 24 hours, leaving everyone else to the point, arguably: go through this process as a novelty and perhaps learn a bit. or merely kill a saturday |
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i was also thinking about how you could actually implement a DRM scheme on vinyl. it is as challenging as it is obnoxious it's a shame you can't just laser-print the whole thing in 3D (or can you?) ...because, i dunno... eight sequences of four razor-select-able grooves. will be enough serial numbers to cover this stupid idea. they're pressed with the grooves all walled off and you go into each vinyl and nick open one of the grooves at each of the eight stages. this produces audio, which someone plays into their smartphone... the FLAC idea seems more like an actual thing. and can't see anyone having done it so far |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%E2%80%93Hartley_the orem The signal to noise ratio is between 1k and 10k from Google, so the bit capacity per second is about 10x the bandwidth. And both sides gives 45 minutes for the time, and let's assume the bandwidth is 50kHz. Then the total is about 170 MB, or 340 MB for a stereo LP --some guy on reddit 9 years ago ...who sounds like he has an electrical engineering degree while everyone else in teh reddit is talking out of their ass |
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and yeah a link to gzip thing plz? |
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in your browser Based64 |
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signal chain like.. 1. source FLAC of normal audio¹ 2. convert FLAC to base64 3. digital modulation with checksum to FLAC 4. FLAC to vinyl factory 5. manage to sell this to someone without being afx or plastikman or something, ship it to poland, etc 6. vinyl to punter 7. rip vinyl to computer 8. demodulate from flac to base64 9. paste it into what i linked in my previous post and it will come out as audio ¹ currently using the audio of cardi b throwing a mic at some twit. there's a meaty thwoomp and a Wut Da FUK and expect me to sample this later |
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that i was being all flip, asking -- "yes, what happens to the frequencies on vinyl if you set your turntable weights to 'roseanne barr' and the needle shreds it?" ...and now this matters, right? because you can't expect it to come through pristine. that it will start to accumulate errors over repeated plays, even before it goes through someone's home vinyl rip setup ...so it really does have to be an error-correcting thing. i understand this in a general sense (time to frequency domain! QAM! math!) i also understand it's generally sensible to use something off the shelf if you can the first thing i looked at was GNU Radio, because... SDR has to have all this crap by definition, and the only issue is: is this the easiest answer? fuck no. GNU Radio is a monster. don't even look at it |
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that guy did his math with the bandwidth of vinyl as "50khz" which may be technically correct but J. Random Punter's vinyl rip specs will limit us to 22050hz |
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if i can have one side of the vinyl and someone else has a factory, they can have the other side and now i get to be all ~TIL~ even though some of it was yesterday why yes, vinyl does go beyond human hearing. they used tones ~30khz to control some of the quadraphonic nightmares back in the 70s ...and if you use your 96k sampling rate gear, you can stuff at most perhaps 300mb onto a stereo vinyl (error correction eats some up). that is, using frequencies up to 48khz obviously at hearing range, 22hz, you're down below 150 still enough for a FLAC but, giggle. ripping a vinyl will make a larger FLAC (however, like a penis -- what the vinyl does with those bits really matters. from there it gets really complex. i think i'll just leave it at a cheap shot across the bow of vinyl) |
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hm, hmm, shit. you can guarantee what gets pressed onto the vinyl, presumably, but you can't guarantee what exact speed someones SL-1200 is at, and i'm not sure if even GNU Radio would have an answer for that. you could add a calibration step, you could have software do it for you based on some tracking markers. fine, but... this buggers up the process with more steps demodulating from [off the shelf system] and being able to automatically account for speed variations... this is about where i say, "i majored in comp sci, not electrical engineering" but it should be pretty clear i delight in saying SO WHAT and my offer still stands. i could do this |
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i should be working on the video software i'm actually being paid for instead. i'll kick myself off of the fun stuff for now |
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Flexi discs vinyl record manufacturers. A list of vinyl record companies providing flexi discs ahaha |
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recycle said he'd buy a 12" of one of his tracks a month ago and the dude is still talking about vinyl. why would you even consider vinyl? to sell one copy to recycle? |
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your inability to read what's in front of your beak never ceases to astound. see where i said "i need to kick myself off of the fun stuff and do 'work'" do you know what .htaccess is? do you know how wrong attempting to prove that it's turing-complete is? how about trying to find a way to lock a vinyl down with DRM? similarly, i want to distribute a FLAC file using a vinyl, which could entail sending a FLAC of a FLAC to the Factory, and this is called a hack. it's a hack to vinyl FLAC. but i don't have the cash for it. and, you did not seem to read the part where i said "i don't know how you'd sell this without being afx or plastikman" and "if i get half the vinyl i'll make this work" and i didn't say: at this point i'd prefer plastikman because he actually seems like he can string a line of code together rather than hire people to write code if he paid well enough i'd just implement for afx and let him take credit though. because it's a nice cheeky stunt. in addition to being a hack meanwhile, you never answered me in the other thread: what kind of WAV file do you, as a professional troll, prefer? the 20-bit bluray audio one? the crusty old ones that only open on a mac classic? do you want alaw or mulaw PCM encoding? because the RIFF/WAV format encapsulates loads of other crap just like MP4. Except RIFF/WAV is ugly dogshit full of legacy crap no one ever uses unlike FLAC -- from which it is guaranteed you can recover an exact copy of the input data. if you send that to a vinyl shop and they say "we don't know how to use this" you've probably made the mistake every friday and you're not emailing an album master, you're huffing paint in a half-flooded abandoned rock quarry |
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meanwhile: i need to order diana deutsch's books; riced out industries bought out The Goose Brandâ„¢ so that can wait anyways -- and back to my FLAC on vinyl idea - Trying to put out a FLAC on flexidisc is ~lol~ but they're so crap you'd never be able to even get a good rip out of it. But you CAN still get flexidisc made. lol - it would need good vinyl to work - you'd have to be very clear with people that you have to have one of those QUARTZ CONTROLLED turntables where the speed is automatically calibrated, wow and flutter controlled (leaving it still entirely possible for someone to just have the pitch slider nudged) how about the follow-up album? where a custom encoding scheme allows it to be a perfectly listenable vinyl, that can be turned into a FLAC of an entirely different track using the computer? but walk before you run; it needs to work as just djgkdfg playing a data CD noise first |
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i'd forgotten about flexidiscs. i didn't realize you can still get them made. or that you can get ones that work as postcards made. getting nowhere on googling things like "signal to noise ratio of flexidisc" and i still can't afford that anyways however, it's inspiring. i could do all sorts of absurd things with those without Shannon-Hartley slapping me with the math hammer |
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i don't understand why you would want to distribute a flac using vinyl i export 96khz 24bit wav |
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funny you mention that. search for "96k" on this page and why yes, vinyl does go beyond human hearing. they used tones ~30khz to control some of the quadraphonic nightmares back in the 70s ...and if you use your 96k sampling rate gear, you can stuff at most perhaps 300mb onto a stereo vinyl (error correction eats some up). that is, using frequencies up to 48khz that in trying to solve this as a technical problem, well, after i wrote the quoted post, i thought "well i checked, i definitely am recording to 24 bit, but i think i'll see if my $400 yamaha mixer can do 88200 because i STILL don't want to fuck with sample rate conversion" and i'm using a $400 mixer's built-in usb. even if reaper will let me turn it up that doesn't mean it matters. 24bit does, tho, and it definitely is. i did say i'd go and check |
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but, yes, 24 bit, i might double the sampling rate if the hardware can even do it, because it might go on vinyl someday |
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also: playing a vinyl record is an inherent act of destruction. you damage the record more and more every time. it is also like the japanese tea ceremony, which symbolizes how every moment is unique and cannot be precisely duplicated. more practically, a copy that wears out could help you sell more copies that wear out, and i see the logic in the whole business model now as for thad: i'm just asking him what he likes and why? and how about this? just bouncing ideas. the man has a canoe; he's clearly broke as shit |
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what do you mean with "if you use your 96k sampling rate gear, you can stuff at most perhaps 300mb onto a stereo vinyl" |
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dear steve mcqueen summary: good vinyl, stern warnings about a stable turntable req'd, you could get a FLAC on each side. the technical challenges include: this needs to be fucking error corrected because it will accumulate more data errors with every play; i'd outright throw 1/4 of it into just the same data over again so you can be sure it all gets there. GNU Radio is a beast but once i realized "you can't guarantee the speed of the end-user turntable" and maybe the right digital modulation scheme can solve this, or maybe you need to put tracking markers all over, and this is where i say "that looks like a fucking mess to learn but now some easier options [ffmpeg] seem off the table". if you know someone who can press vinyl, i'll sort out the rest if i can have one side of it for my own track and a bunch of copies |
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read the thread bro. i'm only here to crush you further over file formats i did my senior thesis in high school on the cocktail party effect -- how you're able to listen to one person talking in a room full of people yakking and somehow pick it all out. i reasoned the reverse would also be true: if you saturate someone with enough voices, it will A) sound like a cocktail party B) at some point become impossible to listen to any of them to do this i pirated loads of audio books and then wrote some software to auto-mix them into randomly generated test sound files. and, hey, i was just talking about diana deutsch, i was already invading her turf in high school? rad. it's good juju when things cross over like that this was when i learned RIFF/WAV was pure dogshit; an unholy mess. to this day, i will do anything possible to avoid having to read or write or write it directly. it was also the first time i saw this giant menu of PCM encoding options. i went with μ-law because it had the coolest name i looked it up on wikipedia just now and it does not even mention WAV files, as it is merely "a companding algorithm, primarily used in 8-bit PCM digital telecommunication systems in North America and Japan. It is one of the two companding algorithms in the G.711 standard from ITU-T, the other being the similar A-law." ...and europe prefers A-law on there telephones and i'm gratified to know i made the right choice -- the american choice i can't get too technical about their innate differences, but if you start trying to convert between all these casually, it _will_ kill your audio data. the only reason it doesn't is because everyone is using the same settings. but try to open up a WAV file from, like, win 3.1 era and it might not even work now |
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wtf are you talking about? how is any of this answering my question |
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you didn't answer why you would want to distribute flacs using vinyl either. you can't because once you record to vinyl there is no flac lol |
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it would only make sense if you were fucking with me |
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On Microsoft Windows, the WAV format supports compressed audio using the Audio Compression Manager (ACM). Any ACM codec can be used to compress a WAV file. another fine innovation from the company that decided it was perfectly logical to paint pixels starting at the bottom of the screen somewhere deep in the 90s if you ever ask me for a wav file, watch out. i could carefully construct the most giant nightmare you've ever seen you're asking dumb questions to get replies |
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Though a WAV file can contain compressed audio, the most common WAV audio format is uncompressed audio in the linear pulse-code modulation (LPCM) format. LPCM is also the standard audio coding format for audio CDs, which store two-channel LPCM audio sampled at 44.1 kHz with 16 bits per sample. Since LPCM is uncompressed and retains all of the samples of an audio track, professional users or audio experts may use the WAV format with LPCM audio for maximum audio quality.[9] WAV files can also be edited and manipulated with relative ease using software. note the reverse this wikiblurb tiptoes around: WAV files can use a lossy codec like ACM instead of being uncompressed audio. everyone everywhere all at once uses LPCM and if anyone steps out of line you're all fucked. the part about "edited and manipulated with relative ease" right out the window |
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i mean you can wedge FLAC right good as well in ways it's just way way harder. it's not like WAV ...where someone ...accidentally scrubbing the mousewheel ...while moving over the dropdown to select audio coding... a dropdown they ignore so thoroughly they do not visually perceive it when they go back to see what screwed it up and HALP it was a long time ago but i was literally called in once to "fix it" over this |
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point: i believe, mermaidman, you were asking me why i would "compress" with FLAC instead of just sending a "pure" WAV file, without understanding that a WAV file can contain a 96kbit microsoft .ACM file steve is more fun. can i get him back? |
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obviously i was talking about an uncompressed wav dummy and i never said wav. you can use an UNCOMPRESSED aiff if you like. and i never said why would you send a flac file. you kept saying "vinyl pressed from FLAC" which doesn't make any sense. |
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ok i read the thread (didn't read it before sorry) and you're talking about converting binary data to audio and recording to vinyl which god knows why you would want to do something like that |
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He should do it. Do stuff, epic! Not that you aren’t already doing stuff. |
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you're talking about converting binary data to audio and recording to vinyl which god knows why you would want to do something like that for the same reason i'm firm in my belief that if you 1. took away Michael Bay's computers 2. forced him to make a 90's throwback action movie 3. ...using only the equipment used Oppenheimer 4. ...70mm, real film 5. ...EXCEPT he is granted at least ~$30m budget to smash 6. ...as many of those fucking $500k IMAX 1750 cameras as he wants 7. ...on top of his normal budget for exploding cars you would get what is probably the most amazing, gnarly movie the planet has ever seen. and all the fussbuckets crying over how Mikey smashed all those "gorgeous" cameras is the icing on the cake also: because it's a hack. because it's hard. because it'd be a cheeky stunt that could generate publicity. because i think it's fucking cool. because it'll piss the vinyl nuts off. because it'll piss the FLAC fans off. because it'll confuse the shit out people like you. here we are arguing about it, right? already people are talking about it, yes? you kept saying"vinyl pressed from FLAC" which doesn't make any sense i want to distribute a FLAC file using a vinyl, which could entail sending a FLAC of a FLAC to the Factory, and this is called a hack. it's a hack to vinyl FLAC hack the factory sick of their FLAC ...but then, you don't even use commas when you write. so i'm not going to attempt to explain style if you want to be super literal -- sending the FLAC is when you relinquish your control over the situation. then it comes back as vinyl. FLAC to vinyl. boom |
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He should do it. Do stuff, epic! Not that you aren’t already doing stuff. i can't help it. it's almost clinical. i do stuff like a smackhead shoots up. i'll sit there and grind on it until my stomach is screaming and everything is sore and i love every minute of it "oh, it's not going to be quite that easy" but then i look to the next step, and... i can reach that! AAAAA HERE I COME and just imagine 5yo me screaming at the top of his lungs as he hurls himself to the pit of giant colorful balls it's harder than i thought, but i actually know/remember more than i thought. which has made it pretty painless, just going a step at a time, just the usual hassles like realizing i haven't eaten any of the soup sitting on my desk for a half hour. however, as things stand -- i'm only half of the vinyl. i'm software, science, UX, etc this project needs someone to claim the other half of the vinyl and handle the hardware. the most tacky part of the hardware role is paying for the vinyl to get made, because i can't afford it ...but i've also no idea how to sort out a pressing -- no idea which places are good. no existing relationships with pressing plants that can be leveraged to explain how odd this particular vinyl will be and any special considerations it may need. because, if you can believe it, i'm not very patient on the phone |
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the hardware role begins to look more attractive once you realize it'll be me answering the emails of people who can't get it to work |
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you kept saying"vinyl pressed from FLAC" which doesn't make any sense "i want to distribute a FLAC file using a vinyl, which could entail sending a FLAC of a FLAC to the Factory, and this is called a hack. it's a hack to vinyl FLAC" nah you weren't talking about recording data back then it was in another thread. what i'm wondering is how your track will come out the other side with all the noise and artifacts that will be added to the data also wow and flutter |
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i really hope this is just trolling. because if it ain't... well, that's pretty pathetic. like, i'm not even laughing. you really don't get this? really? after actually reading it? in the middle of you being a know-nothing know-it-all, i used the yellow font to drop a note for steve so if he gets back to me on any of this he can read that bit and not have to wade through me spanking you. it included stuff like "it's going to accumulate more data errors with every play" and "i'd devote at least 1/4 of the capacity to redundancy to make sure it all gets there" and "i'm not sure if you can find a digital modulation scheme to neutralize variations in turntable playback speed or if you'd have to put tracking markers everywhere yet" ...and that did segue nicely into spanking you over how WAV file is just a container format and you're dolt. |
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is mermaidman afx? that'd fit perfectly. the disconnect between ego and actual technical capability |
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wotsit.org is gone! *screaming crying emoji* that site was gooood. it's where i downloaded the RIFF/WAVe spec from in 2002. and so many other fings i wanted to go back and read the specs for riff/wav for nostalgia (and, admittedly, to make sure i've dotted my eyes; crossed my tease. since i'm running my mouth. but my only doubts are worrying i've bodged a detail or two) |
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...and i'm utterly convinced this can be made to work, it's just a question of how much firepower it'll take. because, like, if you can do fucking serato timecode discs then... |
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do you think serato would care if their patents were infringed upon for a small art project? it's been long enough they might all be expired now anyways and the idea of this being a threat to their bottom line is absurd |
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serato uses timing differences between the two stereo channels, essentially, which means halving the usable capacity. tracking markers means a hybrid approach, regular bursts of serato-style sync bookending little blasts of error-corrected data. but then we get into: it's easier to use something off the shelf, if you can. and how much firepower does this need |
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