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With all due respect those people are petit bourgeois; small fish. We now live (and have done for a long time) in a world of multinational corporations with shareholders, CEOs etc. This is not a land of small businessmen but of large corporations and large workforces. Those people are nothing compared to Murdoch, Gates and their ilk. |
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But you still can't tell me how welath is actually created; where profits come from. They don't just appear. So how? |
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Well, i think a rich group of businessmen are going to be a bit more positive than people who have nothing. Remember that behind those homeless people are lives often blighted by poverty, broken homes, abuse, unemployment. Businessmen more often than not come from wealthy backgrounds, private education, university education, a network of contacts, cultual capital (appearance, accent etc). They start from a different rung on the ladder. Take Richard Branson for example. Daddy gave him the money to start Virgin Records. |
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Whilst it's true the majority of successful people have a priviliged background and the majority of homeless people don't, how do you explain the (admittedley few) people who either have a very hard life and succeed or have a very easy life and still messed up? I've heard from people who've had cushy lives (and no, not just the woman in the last episode of Alan Partridge ;) ) that they had a materially wealthy life, but were unloved and had distant parents etc. and that was their "excuse". But what about the people who are born poor, have hard childhoods and suceed? As to those of a priviliged background starting higher up the ladder, true, but as I've already said, it is only an advantage, not the deciding factor. An ex-flatmate of mine has had the very definition of what you described priviliged (aside from his accent) upbringing, but still he is what some people here would term a "loser" (don't get me wrong, he's a nice guy and a good friend, but you wouldn't call him successful). |
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Well how do you explain things on a more global scale? The fact that 2/3 of humanity live on less than $1 a day? That 19,000 children die as a direct result of poverty every day? Are these people lazy? |
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Whilst the west do exploit the 3rd world, again, I believe there must be some benfits for them. I really can't see the UK/USA killing everyone there if they suddenly stopped paying off their debt. If the western world is such an oppressor the other countries should become insular (like china did- lot of good it did them...) and seperatist. Break of all contact with other countries, no one enters no one leaves. I also really believe that the west could do the same and not have a noticable decline in quality of life. Lots of the problems in the third world are at least partly due to: Over crowding, the nature of the environment, illness (linked to overcrowding), etc. and would occur without the west. |
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With a risk of being incredibly boring, I will add this (since Ceri wanted to hear my opinion): Saying that everybody has a choice is such a common place that it means nothing today. Adam and Eve were given a choice, but in essence it was not a real choice, was it: chose one way and you have eternal life in paradise, chose another and you're sentenced to mortal life on earth. So: choose eternal life at the expense of never knowing good and evil or choose knowledge of good and evil and die. This is similar to choices we have in a society we have: sure, in theory everybody has access to education and private enterprise. If you have the money, you can enroll to all expensive schools, get best education and therefore secure yourself a good career. Then again, if you don't have the money but are willing to study hard and be among the best, the government or some copmany will sponsor your way through school. Of course, your part of the bargain is to give them your skills once you're finished. This means, that you can not make real choices any more, or, at least that your choices are severely restricted. Should you happen to be interested in education that no companies or government are interested in, you don't get the money. How's that for choice? The truth is that society decides for us based on its needs, not ours. Fair enough, it would seem, as we all are parts of the society, until you ask yourself do we actually agree with the choices that are made on our behalf. Corporate/ consumer culture consciously dirrects society so that its activities befit the needs of corporations, not general public. This means, a lot of people don't have the knowledge/ sufficient information/ right mindset to be even aware they have a choice. I have been living in a "socialist" society for 20 years and in "capitalist" society for the last 10 (the quotation marks are there because soem of you might know that i don't really see any significant difference between these two systems, socialism being just a less eff |
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Overcrowding??? In Africa??? |
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icient of the two,but with the same aim) and I know what exploitation means. People with no perspective, no knowledge no idea, people who are just workers and are exploited in the classical way: value that they produce is taken away from them and then just pieces of it are fed back. Parlaments and government bodies make choices and decisions on our behalf that have nothing to do with our actual needs/ wishes, they serve the system itself, not its parts. At the same time we are socially engineered by propaganda that goes further than merely trying to sell stuff: they impose lifestlyes and mindsets on us, they make us wish what they want us to wish. And saying "if you don't like the system, just fick off to the woods and live as hermit" is very old. And anyway, who do you think owns woods? Are you supposed to be "free" on government or private property? And, what are you to do when they decide to build a shopping mall/ car park there? Move further into the woods? What when there are no woods left? |
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"And saying "if you don't like the system, just fick off to the woods and live as hermit" is very old. And anyway, who do you think owns woods? Are you supposed to be "free" on government or private property? And, what are you to do when they decide to build a shopping mall/ car park there? Move further into the woods? What when there are no woods left?" Why not sell all your stuff, get a flight to brazil and charter a helicopter to take you over the rainforest and abseil into the most dense area of woodland. I doubt it would get affected by deforestation withing your lifetime. This isn't a pipe dream, it's very feasible, even for people in 2nd world countries... Actually thinking about it, you can buy 10 acres squared of rainforest for about £100 - cash all your savings in and buy miles of rainforest for yourself. The reason people don't? Read Theroux's "The Mosquito Coast". |
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Yes, areas of Africa have greater population than the land can support... |
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Art thou jesting? The rainforest in Brazil is being destroyed daily in order to get more soil for Burger king and Mcdonnald's. This is the most classic example of corporations destroying the earth to create resources that are exploited very quickly (comes the rain season, the soil is washed off because there are no more trees to keep it there) so more acres of forrest have to be burned. Whole indian tribes have to move because corporations need to sow wheat where they used to live. |
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Errr, you'd die in the Amazon dude. |
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No offence but you seem to throw history out of the window. Have you not heard of the British Empire? What about it plundering the resources of the the Third World? The new imperialism is merely a continuation of this practice through the institutions of the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the World Trade Organisation. Who do you think set these institutions up? Ordinary people in the west? the poor of the the Third World? |
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Deforestation is slowing down. I estimate that it will (within 20 years or so) become a similair situation to the deforestation for paper, it will actually reverse the trend. Fast food chains (one of the greatest culprits for deforestation- using it as cheap grazing land for low grade meat.) are actually reporting very low profits and were last year too. More people (in the west at least) are into "healthy eating" and are not eating in burger kings, mcdonalds etc. than ever. I saw a documentary that suggested if the current trend continued there would be no new fast food restaurants in 5-10 years time and existing ones would begin to close. When this happens you can expect to see deforistation slow, then stop. Oh and in regard to overpopulation being the root of many of africa's problems, have a read: or |
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OK, let's take the example of Ethiopia which, as we have seen on the news, is again facing a famine. Last year Western bankers sucked £60 million out of Ethiopia, which was already one of the poorest countries in the world. The bankers and Western governments said it did not qualify for debt relief because it did not put through a Structural Adjustment Programme which meant cuts and privatisation. In Britain Clare Short, the misnamed development secretary, knew about the arms sales and the millions of pounds sucked out of Ethiopia. She knew the famine was beginning to spread. But nevertheless last week she decided to CUT the already miserable aid budget to Ethiopia. |
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The west got into its enviable position through the methods you described- however, you can only go back so far. Should all people of non-celtic descent in the UK be sent back to Germany and Holland, on the grounds that thats where their fore fathers came from? Perhaps the Italians should pay compensation to us for conquering us 100s of years ago? At what point do you stop? |
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Not that I don't believe you, can you give me a link on that? I want to read up on it some more before commenting... |
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I'd really like to see that. But until they fuck off from America Sud, I will not be convinced. |
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Sorry Ceri but that's absolute rubbish. Overpopulation is not given ANY credence by any academics with any sense these days. It defies economic logic for a start. If there are more people in the world there is a larger workforce i.e. greater wealth creation. The problem is not the size of the population but how wealth is distributed. The gap between rich and poor is the largest its EVER been. The claims of overpopulation are a paradox that can not be resolved. |
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British imperialism only ended its regin after the second world war when America emerged as the great world superpower. This imperialism has continued; hence its relevance. |
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The issue at hand is: capitalism/ imperialism, whatever you want to call it is shaping the society (national/ international) so that "choices" at hand are always limited to what fits corporations' work plans. Consumer culture has managed to make people do things that oppressive dictatorships never could. |
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So you honestly believe the world could physically support several trillion people? Let alone the people have a decent quality of life? I admit that having more workers does benefit people, but at a certain point it becomes a disadvantage to have more. Depending on the level of technology, education etc. of a country the quicker this "point" occurs... |
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Like the roman empire, it is not without benefits for the "oppresed" though- better education, medical care, transport, communication infrastructure etc. |
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So in Africa they have the wrong level of technology, education etc? |
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I agree- education is the only way to give people any degree of choice. Look at the corporate culture of North Korea though... the people there seem content enough. |
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Better medical care, for illnesses they never had before the west polluted their environment................... |
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You forgot famine, poverty, war, shanty towns, ethnic cleansing, cultural genocide... |
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There is a famous quote (can't remember it) from a Russian who said that what the west achieves through propaganda and self-censorship of the press they have to do with repression. He couldn't believe his eyes. |
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Education is always controlled by someone, unfortunately. Call me paranoid. |
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Shanty towns (and most of the problems you listed are an indirect result of them...) are made up mainly of people who chose to leave their life in the country for (comparitevly) well paid city/factory jobs, which are a result of the wests influence. It is the corrupt of their own country that overcharges (compared to people in the suburbs) these people for water, food and medical care, in order to keep them oppressed. It has little if anything to do with the west. Meho: I think you'll find the western style hospitals in 3rd world countries also treat people with pneumonia, broken limbs, birth complications, etc. all of whihc occured before the conquest. |
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They do. However, they have brought them asthma and AIDS and other lovely stuff along... |
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You couldn't be more wrong. These people were forced (and still are) to leave the countryside due to western subsidies on their own agricultural goods. The west's institutions like the IMF etc impose tariffs on these countries and they are forced to buy cheaper western produce. The farmers in their own country obviously can't compete with agribusiness and are forced to work for next to nothing in the cities/industrial areas. And these countries are forced to cut social services or to privatise them at the behest of the IMF. If they don't loans are refused. It is WESTERN water companies that overcharge. Here http://www.democracyctr.org/bechtel/ |
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Eh!? Aids is generally acknowledged to of started in Greece, it only became famous in the area of the USA where the first outbreak occured (LA I think?) because of the large gay community there... Many biologists believe aids originated in china from people eating infected monkey brains. Jonesy: Perhaps now, but in the early 70s large numbers of Brazilians chose to leave. I remember seeing film footage interviews of people arriving at the shanty towns (although admiteddly that could of been propaganda) and they said that they had left the farms to make more money- not because they couldn't make a living there. Thanks for the link, reading it now. |
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life is not black or white |
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Like you said, might have been propaganda. Remember who owns and controls the media and their agenda. But who would WANT to move into a shanty town if they didn't have to? |
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That video was shown by a very leftist geography teacher- not on TV... Many people saw it as a temporary measure- moving into the shanty towns for a few years after which the could put a downpayment on a "proper" house/flat in the city. Many people have done this. One of the problems is overcrowding- the people end up spending all their money on food and healthcare for their half score children and as a result can never afford to move out of it. |
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You had commie teachers? hehe Mate, here's a more eloquent explanation of what I am trying to get across. http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,821092,00.ht ml |
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Yes, she was replaced by a right wing nutter who s*****d the head of geography's daughter though... (this is probably not true, although there was a strong rumour to this effect at the time). He left shortly afterwards, so it could well of been true. |
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there are a lot of bad things in the world, and one of them is drugs...drukqs however is a blessing... i am sure a lot of you have taken some sort of illegal drug, and all of you have drunk alcohol, but there isn't a life worth living if you are on drugs...take it from someone who knows. people don't wanna know you coz of your past, and it hurts. people judge you without knowing you and that hurts, people don;t trust you because they think they know what they see in you...drugs are bad, hmmmkay... at least we have music, that gives me some kind of high like nothing else, always searching for that new piece of music that feels like that same high i had from other pieces i listenined to... take care you'all and have a merry christmas and a happy new year... xdiastole1x |
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by the way, answering the question that was raised...drugs are not for losers, drugs make you into a loser, but you can redeem yourself in time...i hope...yes, you can!!!! (having a bad day!) |
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Ah, we don't judge you here (I don't anyway). Glad music still gives you the same "hit". What're you listening to at the moment? |
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NOTHING, i am at univeristy, messing around on the internet, i would be listeing to somehting off lorecords.com i recommend getting to know the label... nice one..laters |
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are loosers for drug? |
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Ceri: Ethiopia and corporations http://www.guardian.co.uk/famine/story/0,12128,862655,00.ht ml |
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I must agree- Nestle are absolute ****ers by anyone's standards. I'd boycott them, but Nestle White Chocolate Crunches are so tasty. I signed a petition relating to this in my union last year. See, I'm not an entirely unethical capitalist ;) |
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Ahhh, you are so easily bought off. You Barryites are all the same hehe. |
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the question I gotta ask is... Ceri your brimming unbridled optimism... it's gotta be synthetic...nobody I know is so high on mere life...so satisfied with the staus quo... what's the secret stash? so I will have some of what you are havin mate ;) |
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I don't know- I do get sad, but I tend to be pretty good at realising how trivial the things that upset me are compared to what most people suffer. When I get sad, I tend to just go and stand and stare in the middle of the countryside and my mood soon picks up. I also go and make new tracks. I tend to make better stuff when I'm down, so then I like the result and it cheers me up. |
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aah..country side..making tracks..it all makes sense:) |
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