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hitler also helped to speed up evolution drugs = hitler |
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hm that's a rather strange interpretation IMO |
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Shit man... everythings got a bit scary for a while there... I think that maybe I have been mis-read, mis-interpreted or something. I don't think that anyone here has said that people that dont take drugs are uncool or bad. What has been said is that people that DO take drugs are unreliable and weak, and therefore undesirable. I think i'm well within my rights to defend myself against that sort of prejudice, and to ask what it is that causes you (promo, Blatant) to feel that way. LeCoeur - What is so wrong with attempting to learn more about someones views and opinions, and if you disagree with them, trying to change them. My opinions are not set in stone, I am open to most arguements, and if someone can come up with an arguement that makes more sense than mine then I am happy to change my view. Its how people learn and grow. Its how society develops. Respect is something that is earnt. I would love to say that I respect everyones opinion about everything, but it would be a lie. How is that even possible? e.g. How can I respect the view that all blacks/gays/women/drugusers/whatever are losers, when I don't believe it to be true? And when it is so obviously a bigoted opinion. Many people have fought and died defending the idea that all people should be treated equally. I too will continue to argue against misguided, incorrect, and offensive ideas. To say that people shouldn't argue on a message board seems like you've missed the point. |
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LuckyP yes Yes YES! Maybe it's fear. Fear of the unknown. Whether they realise it or not. I'm trying to figure it out because, as I said, I used to have these opinions but I can't really put my finger on it. |
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it's not SAID, or typed out rather....it's implied (the cool/uncool part) at least it is from my point of view. thats why discussing important topics like this and religion is NOT helpful IMO on a MB or CHAT room or whatever. you can't tell what peoples expressions are, you infer from how someone types and sometimes those inferences are incorrect. thats why important issues should be DISCUSSED in person. as i've mentioned before. you should respect peoples CHOICES.....ie. to smoke or not to smoke, to drink or not to drink.....i didn't say anything about respecting racist ideas or things most people would find offensive. and it's insulting to try to change someones beliefs or QUESTION semmantics on why someone has certain feelings. why would you want to be around someone who's not comfortable around drugs????........i mean if you don't like it, you don't. accept it and move on. i'm sure there are plenty of other people that enjoy that sort of stuff......hang with them. you don't need to make people feel weird about expressing their true feelings......right or wrong.....i won't be bullied into agreeing with something that i don't agree with. not by anyone. i'm an adult and my views/ideas are well thought out. |
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i personally think that there's a certain line youhave to cross to be a loser when it comes to drugs. i dont smoke or drink that often, i do it when people are around and we just want to get fucked up. addiction is when you become a loser. every day, more than once a day, etc. when the drugs control you instead of the other way around, thats when you're a loser. |
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-whats the real difference between drugs and fast food - they're both addictive, right????? MMMmm I think we're talking degrees here. (Jumps off mature, adult pedastool) |
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When I was much younger than I am now, I thought I would like to be on acid every day. Thank the Lord for small mercies ... |
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i don't think such topics as drugs or god are any less apropriate for the mb than they are for books. it's fine if you don't want to discuss such things, but i and anyone else who are interested in discussing these things here will continue to do so. being purely textual in conversation, i try not to imply anything (this cool/uncool thing you inferred). i try to type exactly what i mean to express. "why would you want to be around someone who's not comfortable around drugs????" the point was not that they weren't comfortable around drugs, it was that they were uncomfortable around drug users. if was around such a person, but they didn't know any background on my drug use, i would be okay to associate with. but, if they found out i used drugs, suddenly it's not ok... though i'm the same person. that's bigotry. i don't see anything wrong with questioning bigotry. it's much different from not liking drunks or abusers of other drugs. |
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it's not bigotry it's personal choice. again.....you can do what you like.....and so can i. sometimes you find out things about people you don't like after hanging with them......do you continue to hang out......i doubt it. and i didn't say anyone shouldn't discuss things......argue.....whatever. it's MY OPINION about how useless it is.....on -line. i've never seen one end well.....and usually people start to really dislike each other because they feel like they are being disrespected. sorry you don't knowing that some people don't wanna hang out with drug users.......but i'm not gonna lie about how i feel about such things. think about how easy it would be for me to never had said anything. but i wouldn't be true to myself. i'm not like that. honesty is my policy |
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do you not hang out with people who use any drugs? |
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no i don't. none of my close friends ever took drugs.......perhaps some aquaintances did but i didn't hang out with them. me and my co-workers are drug tested a few times a year, so as far as i know no one i work with takes them. i also don't wanna be around people who over-drink all the time. i don't like that kind of behavior, never have.....never will. i am around it at work weekly and let me tell you i have less and less tolerance for it. |
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what i'm wondering is, would you avoid me because i use drugs. not because i'm an alcoholic or an adict (i don't get drunk), but because i smoke pot on occasion. and yes, it is in fact bigotry. |
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you can call me any name you wish.....doesn't mean i am or agree with your assessment of me. and i won't answer your question.....cos it's a moot point NOW! end of discussion |
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i just think it's sucks that i'm spending my time with somebody on a message board who thinks i'm not worthy of face to face association is all. it doesn't feel good to know people think in this manner. you know the typical drug abuse losers, so you assume all who use have a problem. |
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good point. also coffee has morre harrmful chemicals than weed, and kid's drrink that. i don't mind drrugs that don't hurrt people. but that goes with anything. if something can kill someone it's bad. drrugs orr not. |
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jupitah, I think you're mixing up some sort of extreme right people with general folk who basically don't want to be around drug users. Le Coure I feel I understand (I could be wrong). I don't think she views you as a second-class citizen or something; she just doesn't want to be around drug users. Also I don't understand why we are being bigoted. I mean I never knew there was a drug race or something. I have given my reasons as to why I wouldn't want to associate with drug users; surely they can't be too hard to figure out. Besides most lefties (like druggies) are completely bigoted as well in the way they take the piss out of wealthy and successful people. And the way in which like fascists, they believe wealthy/successful people don't deserve what they achieve and that they should somehow just give it all away to less wealthy people. |
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End of discussion ? wtf? The discussion ends when people loose interest in it. Why not just stop posting if you disagree and can't terminate your train of thought due to subsequent postings ? (hmm that sounded like a polite 'fuck off' which it isn't!!! No offence intended in any way LeCoeur) |
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'most lefties are completely bigoted' that's such fucking bullshit - I wanna puke |
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I love my drugs....and they love me |
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Ask not what drugs can do for ye, ask what ye can do for drugs |
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TonyFish, Come on you know its true. Be really honest with yourself, you know that most lefties are quasi-socialists and in that sense hold the views mentioned in my last post. Plus a lot have serious hang ups with class. Look I don't mind [well a bit :-)]. I just know that they are hypocrites thats all. I would say the loony lefties (like the ones in government) if they had it their way, this country would be like a fascist state. Basically thats how a socialist state is run, it becomes a fascist state, Russia, Cuba, China etc etc. In my view people like that really are relics with their views, but hey we live in a democracy so they can give us their 2c, thats cool. :-) |
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promo, i feel that i understand what you're saying, so i'll try to put in as clear words as possible what it is that offends me. lecoeur seems to think i'm just being silly or an ass or trying to argue (i think.. what's 'moot point' exactly?) with that hypothetical situation i brought up, but what i'm talking about is very serious (and so her blowing me off was a bit bothersome, but i'll live with it). "Also I don't understand why we are being bigoted. I mean I never knew there was a drug race or something. I have given my reasons as to why I wouldn't want to associate with drug users; surely they can't be too hard to figure out." that's just it. you don't want to associate with drug users, when in fact not all drug users have the qualities that you think all drug users have. i am a drug user (though i don't believe that my use of is as far serarated from ritual morning coffee drinking and social light drinking as you might think). if you would not associate with me simply because i use drugs then you group me with junkies, with weak and unreliable losers, as you put it, that i personally avoid as well. a lot of people express their problems with immature use of drugs--more so than people who use drugs responsibly, which is why you have this opinion and why i get a bad label--but drugs do not make losers. in junior high and early high school i had serious personal issues, all leading to little motivation and depression. i gave into the idea that pot and heavy drinking were the root of my problems and quit. none of my problems went away, they just took a different shape. i eventually realized that smoking way too much pot and drinking to get wasted was one of the way i was expressing my problems that had deeper roots. the drugs were not the cause. what i had to deal with was psychological/spiritual, taking responsibility for my self despite my less than ideal conditions around me. about bigotry, it's not racial but cultural. my drug experiences have influenced my spirit |
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about bigotry, it's not racial but cultural. my drug experiences have influenced my spirituality and who i am culturally (or sub-culturally if you will). i fully understand why you don't want to be around losers who abuse drugs, but i just wish you could acknowledge that there are people who smoke cannabis at regularity that are not burnt out motivationless potheads (i don't deny at all that they're a drag to be around). even more dangerous drugs like the psychedelics are, in minority situations, used responsibly for good purpose. |
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Le - :( ok fine thats over the net now too |
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jupitah, Well sure not all drug users are losers. Of course some are very successful. But a lot I would regard as losers - I'm sorry. I've had a long time to think about what your wrote in your messages - which were quite moving. I think the truth of it, is that I am anti drugs. And the fact that I take a hard line is one of the things that just saves me a lot of bother. Perhaps in a way u have a point, if I knew someone (who was a mate or I had warm feelings for) who was very very lightly into drugs, say dope or something, who knows its possible I might have to sort of live with it, but I still wouldn't accept it. Truth is I've known lots of people in the past who I knew were into dope etc and I didn't accept but what could I do (truth is they weren't that important to me anyway). I would say on the whole its unlikely that I'd know too many people who do that sort of thing now, but if suddenly I did find out someone was into it or something I don't know how I'd react, I'd still have my views though. |
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promo, i didn't think you were really a bigot, but i think the way you worded some of your statements sounded so. i'm glad you can understand me. i totally respect your position on drugs. i've lost friends (not by death) who ended up getting totally wrecked by their abuse problems, and i've lost respect for friends who are just plain boring and depressing to be around because they spend so little time doing anything really lively and spend quite a bit of time getting clouded. i'm logging out, g'night. |
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of course he isn't a bigot! The way he words things kinda shows that. Anyway there are so many different things that can influence a given drug related situation that you really can't just write off drug takers as losers or whatever. I'm glad to see some kind of agreement has been reached. In my (humble) opinion as long as drug takers aren't trying to influence others against their will then it's entirely their decison and as long as they don't interfere with me then that's fine. I'd say I'm pro intelligent drug use where people are aware of the effects /dangers/what have you... bed NaNight/Morning ! |
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Nice to see a small amount of agreement, finally. I don't think promo is a bigot either, I just pointed out that some of what he was saying came across that way. I can totally understand and agree with the point that some drug user (inc pot smokers) are unrealiable, and often annoying to be around. I may have been guilty of those things in the past, and may be in the future, but not ALL of the time. I have a very good job, and only 1 person in my office knows that I use drugs. Not one other person knows, and I smoke weed every day. Surely if I was that weak, and unreliable I would not be in the position I am. I think that I am well within my rights to be offended when someone (that knows nothing about me) calls me weak, and undesirable to be around, simply because I use drugs. Things may well have turned out different if I had never taken drugs, but I do not regret that I have/do for 1 second. I have done things, met people, and learnt stuff that it is unlikely I would have ever done if I wasn't around drug users. I am not suprised that people have views like promo, but it does worry me slightly. What is wrong with tolerance? what is wrong with trying to understand those around us, rather than dismissing them as losers? just a small correction... Russia, Cuba, and China are communist not socialist... there is a difference. Personally I can't see anything wrong with wanting all people everywhere to have access to high quality health care, education, and other public services, no matter what there background or financial situation... I guess that makes me a loony leftie. :) |
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Promo: lefties are not bigoted in relation to their views on the rich. They recognise the fact that the rich are rich because they exploit the poor. Ythat is not bigotry as its based on rational economic reasoning. |
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Quite. The very label 'leftie' is pretty dumb. |
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What if they get rich by working extremely long hours? Is that wrong? |
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Ceri JC, Thanks. You've summed it up in a sentence. The truth is getting rich ain't something that is easy, its exceptionally hard. jonesy, Nobody is exploiting the poor (certainly not in this country), people don't have to work for whoever it might be. So you're wrong and the irony of your statement is that the majority of new rich start out as poor, often in extremely dire situations, and that is what prompts them and gives them the extraordinary motivation to achieve the riches they do. Most people get 'exploited' as you put it because the simple fact is they don't want the exceptional stress and commitment required to actually go out and make it big. The reality is it takes an exceptionally strong willed individual to make it, someone who has to be able to take rejection, after rejection, after rejection and yet keep going. And then even after that, those who make it on to sky-high success are even fewer. Do you really think you could do that or do you think you just couldn't be bothered because of the stress? I am afraid the reality is that the argument of rich exploiting the poor couldn't be further from the truth - most people actually like their comfort zones and to come out of them would be a serious ordeal. Look at it this way, you to have the right to go on and 'exploit the poor' just like the millions and millions of other poor people do to. So go on 'exploit the poor', I wont hold it against you. |
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No it wouldn't. But they don't. |
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sorry, i was taking a piss. Did I miss anything? |
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Oh dear. So people don't HAVE to work for someone else? The what do they do to eat and clothe themselves and find somewhere to live? But OK, I have one question for you (OK 2 now). Where do the rich derive their wealth from? Where does it come from exactly? |
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Oh dear. Do you seriously expect me to answer that question? Well unless you plan on living in Cuba, which I think is really one of the only truly communist countries left, then you're gonna have a very hard time dealing with the world of today. |
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People pay them to do something that is useful and stressful. Consider for a moment 3 people I am friendly with, 1 a barber, 1 the owner of a restaurant, 1 the owner of a corner shop. Whilst not "rich" per se, they are all comfortably well off. They have all got to such a position by doing a job (self employed) that: A) Is skilled- most people would not be able to do it. B) Involves long hours. I know that the owner of the restaurant worked 10 hour days 6 days a week when he was younger. C) Exploits no other "workers", admittedly the owner of the restaurant got his children to help for a few hours a day, but, lets be fair, he is now putting one of them through uni, despite disapproving of the course his son is doing. D) Provides a useful service to society and is very reasonably priced. Entertaining how this debate on drugs has swung aroung to politics- most "real" communists are anti-drug. Think about it, in a society where you are more heavily reliant on other people to do their share of the work it is more important that people are not affected by drug use. An example of this would be in cuba- far less tolerate of drug use than the UK. |
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Oh yes, and none of the people concerned were wealthy/priviliged to start with. I know the restaurant owner came as an immigrant with just enough money to make a downpayment on the building and worked for everything hwe has. |
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Ceri JC, Fair enough, but 'wealthy and priviliged' people somewhere down their history would have started out as poor people aswell. :-) N.B. I know you're not trying to attack 'wealthy and priviliged' people, well pretty sure. Peace. :-) |
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Yes I do expect you to, rather than patronise me. You can't answer can you? |
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But these people are "skilled". "Non-skilled" people HAVE to work for others and more often than not are exploited. |
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I agree that non skilled people are more likely to be exploited, but some people seem not to be adept at learning useful skills, regardless of the opportunities they are given. Surely you've seen the kid in class who through lack of application or simply not being able to, can't grasp even simple concepts or do anything particularly well? A priviliged background will only take you so far. I'd like to believe that everyone is good at something and fits into a niche in society and is useful, I really would. But, it's just a fairytale. There are some people that aren't particularly useful and end up being exploited. The flip side of the coin is should those who are useful be made to "carry" such people? Surely if you can do something "skilled" you are more useful to society and hence deserve to be paid more? I know that if I was in an isolated community of 1000, I'd rather one of the, say 700, unskilled workers died than the 1 doctor... |
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The point I am trying to make: is it OK to exploit people just because you're more skilled than them? Is it Ok to get rich at their expense? Just that. |
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dunno if anyone mentioned it yet, but i think nobody should divide drugs in "soft" drugs and "hard" drugs". this is bullshit |
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Look lets cut through all of this. Communism doesn't work, it never worked and will never work! Its simply at odds with the fundamental evolutionary spirit of mankind. This business of exploitation is just rubbish. Why don't people understand the very very very simple point; that everyone has choice in life. God I'm sick to death of this weak rubbish, everybody has choice, people's lives are not pre-determined. Can we all move on please? |
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Fair point- The Beatles manager famously said, "I would never exploit anyone who didn't want to be exploited." What he meant is that whilst it may be taking advantage of someone to "exploit them", if they are aware of this and have a choice in the matter, it's not really wrong. If a person chooses to be exploited, they must be getting somethign to their benefit out of it, even if it is less than the other party. To look at it another way- we don't actually live under a truly totalitarian reign (in the UK at least), if you don't want to be exploited by society, go be a hermit and live in the woods. Your life will be much harder. The reason for this is that we all benefit from being a part of society, *unless* we are slaves in the literal sense. Even if we benefit less than some others. One labour MP famously said (can't remember who, I take little interest in party politics...), "I believe in elitism, I also believe in giving everyone an equal chanc eot join the elite." I think that's a fair point- I do feel some people (even if it were a perfect world, and everyone had the same upbringing/opportunities etc.) would whine when they end up at the bottom of the pile. It's funny how in a homeless shelter, you will find the majority of people are fatalistic, in a meeting of CEOs, they're more inclined to believe in forging your own destiny (Which I believe, is one of the fundamental concepts of Communism? That man carves his own destiny, hence the removal of God from politics...). Do they have these beliefs because of where they are? Or, are they where they are because of their beliefs? |
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Ceri JC, Well logically they'd (CEO's) have to have those beliefs to get to where they are otherwise they simple wouldn't get there in the first place. Catch 22 really. |
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I wanted to see what Jonesy and Meho have to say on the matter... |
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nice comments from jedi ceri... you tell off a lot of truth whcich people dont wanna hear. i wanted to have a more a more social world allt eh time and thought about socialism as a lot better way to rule fairness, but thats a bit blind...everybody (in 1.-2. world countries can make a living farily easy if he just wants) but i do wish that politicians take away some powers of firms so the earth stays at least as beautyful as it still is, and maybe some abuse of poorer countries could also be deminished... to drugs: most users i know (doesnt matter what) use them because they lack some quality in life, i have been the best example. i quit smoking and weed for a month now and i feel more comfortable dealing with life now than before. but i do believe that drugs like (1)alcohol or (2)weed can have some positive effect on (1,2)some evenings or (2)life itself, and i dont think its just a loser thing, but if you get hung up on it you are def. a loser... i´ll use drugs for the rest of my life (no chem.) and once when im ready a real hallocinogene, because its fun to put you in a mood and i know now when to stop... thats my shit to it, cheers jp |
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