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are there only two of us on this board? |
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What, who can see the appeal of Islam? ;-) There were a few people who have stuck their head over the parapet and said that they were Christians, only one I can remember by name, other than us, is Tibbar. I'm pretty sure there were a couple more Americans, but I can't be certain. |
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also (out of curiosity) could you show me how that is unclear or there is a contradiction? I've never really heard of this area. |
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Sorry, I don't understand. Do you want me to show you something in the bible that detracts from this Calvinistic belief that offends giginger or that is evidence for it? IE Which POV do you want me to play Devil's Advocate for? |
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talking about the calvinistic belief. sorry i should have made myself more clear. See the way i look at it is while i believe grace is the gift. Faith comes with accepting the grace and no one is forced to take it. The idea that "God picks and chooses who he saves and you and your actions play no part in it" doesnt seem sound because it removes the idea of free will which we have here on earth. Thats how one can be an apostate and turn from their faith having already matured in it. But i suppose thats a whole other issue. Basically in my personal view its not that he predestined it. He knew in advance who would and wouldnt and didnt force anyone to do anything. (just personal opinion) Like how if we created robots/etc for a living. We know them inside and out. We know what they will do in a given situation based on how we made and programmed them. Its the same idea here except there are billions of variables involved. That probably doesnt make sense but it does in my head :p |
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no it's pretty comon to hate beliefs that are closer to your own, so as to assure yourself in your own |
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Well if you believe that God is the logos, the logos is always a living thing, a process, an activity. It's alive in the mind, not on the printed page. So individual perspective and interpretation is inextricably bound to it. Trying to freeze-dry it into doctrine can only kill it a little. |
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Yeah that's why evangelicals froth at the mouth and become completely unhinged over Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, more so than over Buddhists Jews etc. |
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There were 4 mormons on Cash Cab the other night. They only won $375. Fuckin' losers. |
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ha, this site sucks. they cling to their faith like michael jackson clings to four year old boys. |
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they will all go to hell anyway. only mormons go to heaven |
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Mormons run las vegas. Fact. VP: I'll try to dig out a couple of the quotes. Gigi will be over the moon that we're turning this thread into the XLT bible study group. :D Have a good weekend all, I'm off out. |
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From what I have seen the bible teaches election and predestination along side free will and personal accountabilty, sometimes in the same paragraph. I can only guess that it is not a matter of contradiction but based on such advanced principals that it couldn't really be explained fully to a human person. It does say somewhere that it is God's will to draw all men to himself, so I can't imagine that there is just some arbitrary selection process at work. It probably comes down to God knowing every intimate possibility in a persons life including every state of mind, emotion, environment, etc that a person will be in, and based on all of that knowing whether or not a person would ever be able to accept salvation. Then, based on the foreknowledge of a persons salvation or reprobation (note that foreknowledge does not necessarily mean fatalistic predetermination there is still a very valid and real choice for the individual within time and space), God may design events around that persons life that are tied and locked into the events of others so that everything is, in that sense, predestined. How could God use, say, the Romans as his instrument of judgement against Israel and still allow the Romans to be people with their own will. The Romans would have had to have wanted to do it anyway, but God in his providence arranged events in time and space to suit his purpose. I sometimes think of it like a movie where there is a director, editor, etc (someone who has final cut) and the film is written with a start and an end, both of which are known, however the actors are sometimes improvising, sometimes following prompts from not not only the director but other actors and even people off screen yelling directions at them, and it is up to the director/editor to make it all work into something that somehow follows the script. |
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why would a god want to direct a movie? just for fun? |
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You can't argue with an angsty teen yelling about how much Christianity sucks. This is because they have a very suscinct argument, which to disprove requires about ten years worth of point-obscuring elaboration. I might as well post this now... |
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fuck! I make no sense and I made a spelling error. |
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Well, he did get to pull one of those casting-couch deals with one of his leading actresses... |
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Pffft. I will disprove it in four words, two of them hyphenated: religion is horse-shit. |
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Wait - who am I disproving again - the angsty teen or the Christian apologist? Well it applies to either. |
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Historically a triple fleetmouse post has been enough to disembowel the toughest thread. I will seal its fate with a quadruple. |
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there's no turning back now. this iron chef battle is OH-VAH! |
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that sounds good. should be pretty interesting and most definately an interesting change of pace from the usual athiest/agnostic stance that usually roams the board. look forward to it :) |
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I hooked up with (sucked face) a promise keeper (no sex until marriage) on a train trip a few year ago. She was really hot and an incredible kisser. Kinda kooky though.Did I mention that she wa hot and a really good kisser? It made me even more horny that she was a virgin. |
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the only big problem i have with christianity is the way it alienates people. essentially we are all in the same boat. we are all the same in the sense that we know literally fuck all of the existance of any god. the ONLY difference between me and a christian is that they decided that this single book was correct and believeable. it's the difference between saying a simple "yes" and "no" and this could change soooo easily. i used to be a christian and i used to look down on people and laugh at them thinking "hhahaha, you're going to hell. you poor poor individual. you're lost in this world, corrupted by evil." eventually i decided that i was being incredibly naive and i only believed in it because i desperately wanted to have eternal life, which was the selfish part of me. my beliefs have changed. i now believe in trusting my common sense, my rational thinking and logic. i've come more to terms with death. i've accepted it. i don't like the actual idea of death but i just don't think about it and it doesn't affect me. in a way this is what i was doing with my beliefs before. using the idea of heaven to stop my fear of dying. i just think people should be more honest with each other and say "ok, let's face it, we are all doubtful. how much trust can we really put into the bible?" |
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My only problem with Christianity is the idea that what's subjectively true for some should be objectively true for all. Does your Christian testimony prove that there's a God? Then the flipside of that is that my atheist testimony proves that there's no God. |
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Well ok, not the ONLY problem I see, but that'll do for now. :D |
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You know that a testimony doesnt actually prove something to the effect you can see (persay). Like i could tell you about mixing vinegar and baking soda and what would happen but then i could show you just that. The Christian testimony isnt necessarily going to make one that doesnt believe go "wow John really overcame his heroin addiction. I didnt think he would in fact i thought he was doomed. But if he credits it to God there must be something there." I think it can really serve to edify other believers. If perhaps they are down about something in their life... to read anothers personal testimony as encouragement. They can see what that person went through and see how God worked in their life helping them overcome whatever situation is at hand. On the flipside of that coin is your atheist testimony. But this is where i am confused. Are you saying its like set up similar? for example it may work like this if written out.... 1.used to believe 2. stop believing 3. good that came from stopping the belief system. thats pretty much how the Christian testimony works from what i read in my life.... 1. grew up 2. came to know Christ 3. good things and changes that occured from that day on that benefitted that individual and perhaps others. |
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i used to be a christian and i used to look down on people and laugh at them thinking "hhahaha, you're going to hell. you poor poor individual. you're lost in this world, corrupted by evil." I cant say i have ever met one true Christian that has ever spoke like that in my life. The people i know are loving and caring. They also dont find someone being doomed to hell as being funny. Thats pretty twisted. They would be more concerned with telling that individual about thier personal beliefs and sharing the gospel with them. |
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1.used to believe no one on earth starts out their life believing in a specific god. they are taught to believe in it. |
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that was the easiest way to put it for me. alot of times you will (for example) have roman catholics that lose faith later in life. I suppose it was an assumption on my part. That was my bad. you are right though because to know a specific religion (muslim, jew, christian) you need to be directly taught about it. |
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1. grew up 2. came to know Christ so you really think you're a more mature person because you believe in christianity than someone who doesn't? |
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"grew up" shows that time has passed. For example i grew up Catholic for 18 years and then departed from those basic beliefs. Grew up shows an aging in years and not a maturity. I am sure we can all agree that i am immature. |
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you could say though that the positive impact on ones life from being a christian is losing the fear of dying. being part of a community and feeling accepted are other things. i think the fact it's christianity specifically has very little to do with it. if i became a buddhist i'm sure my life would improve but i prefer to stick with what feels natural to me. |
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religion can make you feel good etc. by making you think you wont actually die but you will go to some nice fluffy place in the sky instead. but then all the religions insist that they are right and all the others are wrong. thats why the whole thing sucks. aswell as the fact that they are mostly not founded on any conclusive facts |
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My only problem with Christianity is the idea that what's subjectively true for some should be objectively true for all. I am one of the other nominal Christians on this board, as you may recall, but this statement is the exact opposite of the way I feel. The only reason I believe in Christianity is my sneaking suspicion that it is objectively true despite my subjective wish that it wasn't. Trust me, I'd love it if there was no afterlife at all, think of how much trouble that would save everyone! However, at the same time, I look at the church and the tenets it teaches about loving your fellow man and I can't really see any harm in it, at least in its pure form. If our actions really do mean something and there is a God, then Christianity is the religion I would choose out of them all because it identifies most with what I would consider to be important, that is, treating others as you would like to be treated. This, of course, is speculative at best. There are other religions with similar teachings, just as there are perversions of the Christian message. To be honest, I think Roman Catholics have it together much more than any given Protestant denomination. I think everything in the universe is fairly doubtful, but I still find some value in the Christian message. |
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Your wish and your sneaking suspicion are both subjective. |
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Atheist testimony: 1) never believed 2) tried prayer but nothing happened 3) noticed that taking action was more effective than wishing 4) have yet to see any reliable evidence that there's anything to religion other than a sometimes-beneficial, sometimes-harmful form of self hypnosis A friend of mine told me that if I lived as a Mormon for a month I'd be convinced that it was true. I asked him what would happen if he lived in an ashram as a Hare Krishna for a month. Obviously it works because there are both Hare Krishnas and Mormons - but they can't both be right! |
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But why does that have to be an application of religion? These morals could just be good morals, good manners, healthy living. No need to slap a fish sticker on it. Personally, my faith and belief system revolves around the fact that there is so much complexity in the simplicity of all things around you, so much that I get the same awe from it as a christian does when they go euphoric and seizure on a church floor. Nevermind Adam, more like Atom. heh |
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Well, that was an analogy. Of course a movie isn't real and the actors go home at the end of the day regardless of what happened to their character on screen, so we wouldn't say that God is directing a movie because what happens to people is very real. The anaolgy attempts to look at an interventionous God, who has already given the beginning, ending, and major plot points of the story arc of time, but still allows people their own will and choice. That's why I said that people improvise, because although God has a definite way He wants the story to end, and definite things He wants to see happen along the way, people's free choices become a wildcard. That is why editing is a metaphor for God's foreknowledge in being able to organize and arrange everything that will ever happen, including people's free will choices and the consequences that come from them, into something that will still turn out right in the end. |
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It didn't link my response properly. I was replying to R40f. |
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I take offence when people say god is a he. I don't beleive in a god and I don't disbeleive in a god. But a god has no fixation to our terminology. A god is so immensely superior to mankind that to describe the wills and ways of its actions would be incomprehensible. And to credit god to things it takes no part in is mentally retarded. If there is a god, and if god has ever done something, like set something it motion, it was a big explosion of some sort. It was the first and only conscious moment that came from nowhere. It was intentionality. Fuck sakes I knew if I came in this thread I'd start to rant about bullshit. |
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i understand all that... my point was literally, why would an omnipotent being do that? you're telling me that there is this infinite sentient being or force that exists and has created a universe for its own amusement? why? and furthermore, if it is all predetermined, then the actions in your life are controlled by god. your sense of free will is illusory since you have been put here with a deliberate purpose and function. that means that anything you do in your life, whether you are a good christian or a mass murderer, has been scripted by god for his "movie". |
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Gwely: It's true. You can have those 'good' morals or 'good' manners, but without a system of religion behind it it seems hard to determine why one thing is 'good' and another thing isn't. I do agree though that these manners and moral characteristics alone don't necessarily have to be indicative of a specific religion like Christianity since someone can clearly be a philanthropist without being Christian. fleetmouse: Of course they are both subjective, but wouldn't you agree that there is some way that things actually objectively are, regardless of what any one person believes? Unless you think existence is only an illusion of an individual mind, which could be possible I suppose, then there are external variables in the world that can't be controlled. I was indirectly agreeing with your point that too many Christians bend their perceptions of an 'objective' reality based on what they subjectively believe, and then try to bring in other 'believers'. What I'm saying is that based on my upbringing etc. etc. I have a greater inclination to give the Christian worldview a chance, but that sure as hell doesn't mean I'm gonna try to convince anyone else about it.. I can't prove Christianity more than I can prove that aliens exist. I'm skeptical of religion, my own included, but sometimes I think people write it off too quickly. It isn't as if there is one 'true' atheistic baseline state of the world, and that people choose a specific religion as if they're choosing a weight loss program. I agree that each belief is subjective, but then again, I doubt there's any way we'll ever really discover the objective state of reality that religion is supposedly departing from. |
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Look I mean that is fine if you think that way, and I am sorry if I offended you, but i am relaying the way in which the God in the bible is portrayed. The God in the bible is portrayed as interventionous and also presents himself in the masculine because that is how he chooses to do it. I didn't make it up. |
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Ofcourse you didn't make it up, a man did. A man did in a time when women had no voice in matters. And maybe, just maybe, way back in that time men referred to self profound thoughts and realizations as godsend, because their diction and intelligence hadn't evolved to the point of scientific reason. |
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That is what I mean. We do still have very valid and real choices. I don't believe that our choices are predetermined. Think, though that if God knows what choices everyone is going to make before the world even exists, then God would be able to arrange and manage how history plays out based on that foreknowledge. He could funnel, connect, repress, allow etc. any and every action that people could make. Now keep in mind too that God doesn't allow people to do everything they want and if he does not always when they want. He can also influence or guide someone to do something other than what they want to do, the same as a friend might talk another friend out of a bad choice. Other times, as in the case of the story of Pharoah and Moses, he may empower someone to do something against God's principals, in order that they fulfill their own reprobation, but it does say that before God hardened Pharoahs heart, Pharoah hardened Pharoahs heart. So Pharoah did exactly what he wanted to do anyway, God just enabled it to happen in a way that would best suit his plan and purpose (For instance Pharoah might have let the people go out of fear because of the plagues put on Egypt, but what was really in his heart was a will to defy Moses and God and not let the people go) As to why, I think God created people to love him and for him to love them; the same reasons people have children. When a couple decided to have kids, they know that some of those kids could go down a bad path, get on hard drugs, rob a liquor store, whatever, but they still decide to have them anyway on the chance that they won't, or if they do will feel bad and do better. |
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Did you ever fathom that for all of the scientific knowledge and enlightenment that we have, we are still just like a small boy standing by an enormous ocean with a tin cup? |
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would you say you take a lot of drugs or A LOT of drugs? |
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what the hell. |
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Haha! Glasse is a bit daft that's given but I like to read Virginpushers views too. Fleetmouse has had his say a million times and it was interesting. I'm as disturbed as anyone by evangelical nutcases but It'd be nice to see Virgin and Uviol talk for a bit. Everyone knows the sceptical side but I do find it fascinating peoples beliefs. |
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