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offline mylittlesister from ...wherever (United Kingdom) on 2005-08-14 14:33 [#01694796]
Points: 8472 Status: Regular



globalisation is a problem, in my eyes, but for a culture to
truly counteract this problem they must do so with complete
independence from external entities - otherwise their
culture will be preserved inaccurately (almost as a
globalised view of their culture).


 

offline r40f from qrters tea party on 2005-08-14 14:35 [#01694797]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to goDel: #01694794



yeah, good point.


 

offline mylittlesister from ...wherever (United Kingdom) on 2005-08-14 14:36 [#01694798]
Points: 8472 Status: Regular



"i don't think diversity should be forced"

exactly my thoughts, it's like an enforcing individualism -
it just doesnt happen!


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2005-08-14 14:39 [#01694800]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to goDel: #01694794 | Show recordbag



just let nature take it's course...

well, that's the main problem.. is this nature taking its
course? would this language die out if africa hadn't been
colonized?


 

offline scup_bucket from bloated exploding piss pockets on 2005-08-14 14:39 [#01694801]
Points: 4540 Status: Regular | Followup to tolstoyed: #01694776



thank you, I've been wondering what he actually said for
many years.


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2005-08-14 14:44 [#01694806]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag



and I do agree with the "not forcing" thing, and I
don't really see anything else to be done, which is why part
of my initial question was "how could this be done."

of course, I hope these cultures don't die, but there seems
to be little to be done about it.


 

offline mylittlesister from ...wherever (United Kingdom) on 2005-08-14 14:47 [#01694808]
Points: 8472 Status: Regular | Followup to Drunken Mastah: #01694800



human beings and their actions are natural.

i don't think cultures should be preserved as such, but
rather globalisation should be resisted. Stuart Hall's
studies on globalisation make good reading, with his 3
predicted consequences of globalisation:
1. decrease in diversity through globalisation of cultures.
2. sustainment of diversity through cultural resistance to
globalisation.
3. increase in diversity through the forming of new 'hybrid
cultures', due to increased inter-culture relationships and
communications.

[my recollection of this theory may be a bit rusty :D]


 

offline goDel from ɐpʎǝx (Seychelles) on 2005-08-14 14:49 [#01694811]
Points: 10225 Status: Lurker | Followup to Drunken Mastah: #01694806



hmmm
good point.
i know i've said "let nature take it's course", but that's
not a good reason to be indifferent with respect to these
dying cultures. the answer is in anthropology itself, i
guess. study those cultures before they actually die (which
seems to be inevitable). that way, we can learn from them as
much as we can. and that's perhaps another way of preserving
them.


 

offline mylittlesister from ...wherever (United Kingdom) on 2005-08-14 14:50 [#01694812]
Points: 8472 Status: Regular | Followup to goDel: #01694811



the problem is, to truly understand a culture you have to
live it, not just study it.


 

offline goDel from ɐpʎǝx (Seychelles) on 2005-08-14 14:54 [#01694813]
Points: 10225 Status: Lurker | Followup to mylittlesister: #01694812



perhaps, but that would imply keeping those cultures
artificially alive (with the danger of modifying them
anyways).

study is a good compromise, i guess. there just isn't a
perfect solution.


 

offline mylittlesister from ...wherever (United Kingdom) on 2005-08-14 15:02 [#01694816]
Points: 8472 Status: Regular



back to the initial question:
should we do our best to preserve "dying" cultures, and
how would this be done?


the best way to do this, for me, is to allow cultures to
grow/evolve by themselves, and do not force any
culture on them.

cultures naturally evolve, but this progression is too often
interrupted by multi-national companies wishing to widen
their potential-customer "net", and this involves bringing
along their culture.



 

offline goDel from ɐpʎǝx (Seychelles) on 2005-08-14 15:11 [#01694825]
Points: 10225 Status: Lurker | Followup to mylittlesister: #01694816



i agree with you, but i think you've missed a point. (or
i've missed yours.)

a dying culture is "dying" because it isn't able to grow or
evolve by itself anymore.
how much evolution do you expect from a language which is
spoken by 5 people?
so from your words i make you'd say to let these cultures
die, because it seems to be their natural evolution.
if that's the case, ok, i still agree, and i'd like to add:
study them as good as possible, just in case there's
something useful in there.



 

offline mylittlesister from ...wherever (United Kingdom) on 2005-08-14 15:19 [#01694833]
Points: 8472 Status: Regular | Followup to goDel: #01694825



yes, when a culture is that small, the size of a single
family, it is almost certainly dead.

the rot of globalisation/westernisation/americanisation has
set in too deep, there is no more that can be done to
rejuvinate the culture. all that is left, it seems, is to
document it.


 

offline redrum from the allman brothers band (Ireland) on 2005-08-15 09:42 [#01695473]
Points: 12878 Status: Addict



what a great thread.

I think it'd be a good idea to recognise the fact that dead
languages can be brought back to life if there is sufficient
written material in the language. Take Hebrew for example -
it was entirely dead until the Israeli state was
established, with hebrew as its national language, and now
there are native speakers of hebrew once more.

The problem is, however, that most of these tribal African
languages, as cited in the first post, have not been written
down. Once they die, they're dead.

However, since language is truly "an aspect of the soul",
and one people feel very passionate about (just look at the
French, people of the Basque region, and indeed
the Irish - with people like WB Yeats and Douglas Hyde), if the language belongs to a modern society
- ie, not a tribal setting - and the speech community
reaches low numbers, around a couple of hundred, people will
notice and things will be done.

I think the topic of the dominance of the English language
around the world is far more interesting and important
however. It is due to convenience and necessity when it
comes to globalised trade.

I think the current situation is just fine - except for one
thing, that english is perceived by youth culture all around
europe as cooler than their native language, and more
useful. I think the solution to this is just advertising and
a raising of cultural awareness and national pride.

On the flipside, there's an association in America that's
fighting the growing prominence of spanish, which I find
quite amusing.


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2005-08-15 13:18 [#01695751]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to redrum: #01695473 | Show recordbag



let me just say that the african languages ARE recorded too
(how else would we know what the people were saying?) and
there are interpreters, but they are most often not part of
that culture, but rather the other culture that wants to
know what those 10 people in the corner are talking
about...

what you say about english being a language percieved as
"cooler" is a trend that I actually hope and think is
turning. There used to be tons of bands here in norway
singing in english and when asked why, they mostly replied
"it's more poetic" or "it's cooler." However, as of late,
and actually starting with the hip-hop culture, this has
turned.. more and more bands/acts/whatever are using
norwegian (and often in their own dialect although some
people switch (there has been a rather weird case of a (hot)
chick from the north part of the country switching to the
dialect spoken in oslo whenever she sings.. (she was a
non-winner in norwegian idol, but I think she'll be the one
to stay, btw))).

but another thought just occured to me.. what if "american"
takes over and "english" is forgotten somehow (this would
take many many years, but could be possible)? the harbor has
color. would we want to save "english"? It's almost like two
dialects, and again an example from here in norway where
there are two "languages" which mostly are just different
dialects. No-one really speaks the standardized form of each
(the one found in textbooks), but we learn both at school
and culture researchers think that it's important that we
preserve the "new-norwegian" (which, oddly enough, has been
around longer than the other one.. long story) "language"
and culture.


 

offline ymenard on 2005-08-15 13:37 [#01695775]
Points: 1001 Status: Regular



This relates somehow to the problem of Canada... which is
the province of Québec. I live in it, I'm one of those
"100% pure laine" Québécois who's family have been here
for centuries. I speak French.

We're 8 million people, living and surrounded completely by
300 million North Americans speaking another language. We
are part of them, but also we aren't like them. We're a
completely different cultural entity. We talk French for a
start, but we have to fiight had to *save* this cultural
identity. We instored laws that protect our language and
way of living, and also facilitates the entry of immigrants.
Its still today a very controvertial law, and I do agree it
has its fair share of good and bad points (anyway, nothing
is black or white, its all gray).

You all know how American culture is really heavy, now
imagine being surrounded, East, West, South, with it
(Ontario = USA disguised) and being continually blasted by
American culture. Again, for its good and also, for its
bad. ;-)

So when you speak of Norway, well you guys aren't really "in
the middle of it".

We're like the Asterix Gaul village.


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2005-08-15 13:43 [#01695777]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to ymenard: #01695775 | Show recordbag



heh.. I was just using norway as an example simply because I
know how it is here as opposed to canada. I knew that canada
had both french and english as official languages, but I
have no idea how it is there... we also have "trøndersk"
which simply is a dialect of norwegian, but I have a harder
time understanding that than I have understanding english...
I also giggled at the ambiguity in calling american culture
"heavy"


 

offline ymenard on 2005-08-15 14:46 [#01695896]
Points: 1001 Status: Regular



Yeah I wasn't putting Norway down, not at all. In a way,
Americanism/globalism is omnipresent everywhere. There are
good and bad parts to this, and cultural identity is
something that can be loss from that omnipresence.

It's just that we have the geopolitical aspect to it, they
are our neighbours! (we're their biggest neighbour also).
We're also neighbours with Ontario and the east part of
Canada, which is 98% English. We're more like 90% French
here in Québec ;)

Speaking of dialect, well our language in itself is a form
of dialect compared to "pure French", or the dictionnary
form. A funny anecdote, when movies from Québec are shown
in France, they are subtitled!


 

offline patman from Liverpool, England on 2005-08-15 15:00 [#01695916]
Points: 198 Status: Addict



THE WEST IS THE BEST.


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2005-08-15 15:13 [#01695938]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to ymenard: #01695896 | Show recordbag



hahah! french subtitles from semi-french...

could be useful in real-life when talking to "trøndere"
too...


 

offline Atli from Reykjavík (Iceland) on 2005-08-15 17:39 [#01696194]
Points: 1309 Status: Lurker | Followup to Drunken Mastah: #01695938



i'm really into languages and preserving culture so i agree
with you totally.

iceland itself is a very small community and the changes
that this nation has gone through over the last 60 years are
massive. there has always been a strong tradition for
preserving the icelandic language, which can be shown by the
fact that most people can with, not so much difficulty, read
books that were written some 800 years ago.

another thing is that, when most nations take new words from
other cultures they don't change the word much. this is the
case with danish for example. they might change the spelling
but the word looks and/or sounds exactly like the english
(most often) word. this doesn't make the word very danish to
me.

we of course have slang and such but most of the time new
words are made by putting together old words. it's a rather
"seethrough" language in the sense that you most often know
what a word means although you've never seen it. i don't
find this to be the case with english because it has got so
many latin/greek words.

i think all of this will change though in the near future.
american/english influences will probably "destroy" the
language for the most parts. many would say that this is
just a natural evolution but to me fighting back and trying
to preserve culture is just as natural.

and as for you tolstoyed...my views on english are somewhat
similar although i don't find it very boring. it lacks some
words and phrases, sure, and i feel that i can never quite
say what i want to say and could do much better with my own
language...but that also has something to do with my lack of
knowledge in english.

i'm a great fan of languages, as said above, but i haven't
studied slovenian. i went there last summer (well croatia
actually) and drove through slovenia 2 times. i thought
croatian was a bit strange (not boring, just strange) but
that is probably because it's very much different from
icelandic.



 

offline Atli from Reykjavík (Iceland) on 2005-08-15 17:41 [#01696197]
Points: 1309 Status: Lurker



wow, that was long.

taken from wikipedia: "Slovenians are said to be 'a nation
of poets' due to their language". funny enough, this has
sometimes been said about icelanders as well so those two
nations might have more in common than one might think...


 

offline plaidzebra from so long, xlt on 2005-08-15 17:46 [#01696207]
Points: 5678 Status: Lurker



sometimes i wonder how far humans will go to save data,
experience, forms. perhaps in the future we will have only
museums, and making new objects will be forbidden. we will
have run out of space.

i'm at work and can't read the entire thread, but i wonder
if, with languages, we must be content to let go and realize
that as language evolves, outdated "formats" must be
retired. it's a tremendously emotional issue for those
whose culture is interwoven with the language, but it seems
there's no way to forestall the inevitable.


 

offline ymenard on 2005-08-15 17:47 [#01696213]
Points: 1001 Status: Regular



Go West!
Life is peaceful there
Go West!
In the Open Air
Go West!
Where the skie are blue
Go West!
This is what we're gonna do




 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2005-08-16 02:02 [#01696481]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to Atli: #01696194 | Show recordbag



yeah, I like it better when new words and slang is made from
norweigan words than english...

unfortunately, I can't get around some parts of the
development myself and actually use the (norwegianified)
"kidsa" (about kids.. I also only say "kids," but that's
because the dialect I speak doesn't have "female" words and
the -a ending is "female"), "word" (although I only use this
a bit jokingly) and "ma'fakka!" (also jokingly, but it
appears I joke too much, 'cause I use them very often...


 

offline Atli from Reykjavík (Iceland) on 2005-08-18 12:44 [#01699627]
Points: 1309 Status: Lurker | Followup to Drunken Mastah: #01696481



your dialect doesn't have female words? i thought most forms
of norwegian didn't have female endings just like danish,
except for gammel norsk maybe or something like that.


 

offline mylittlesister from ...wherever (United Kingdom) on 2005-08-18 14:48 [#01699752]
Points: 8472 Status: Regular | Followup to plaidzebra: #01696207



i think this is a suitable time to post this comic
:D


 

offline plaidzebra from so long, xlt on 2005-08-19 06:58 [#01700181]
Points: 5678 Status: Lurker | Followup to mylittlesister: #01699752



great comic!


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2005-08-19 08:46 [#01700292]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to Atli: #01699627 | Show recordbag



no, it's pretty much only bergen (and maybe some surrounding
areas) I think...


 


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