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my brother (who studied social anthropology) and I had a nice discussion this holiday about languages that are dying.. for instance, there are languages that aren't spoken by more than about 5-10 people (I think it was some tribe in africa), and that most likely will be gone in a while.. the young ones of the tribe have gone on to speaking english/german/french or the main language in that region.. now, while a language is a very important part of a culture, one could say that this is a development (not really natural, but I wouldn't go as far as calling it un-natural either) that can't be stopped, and that it will eventually happen to most "minority languages." On the other hand, there are many people who say that maintaining a cultural diversity is good, and thus something should be done to prevent this language and the culture it belongs to rom dying.. would it be right for some organisation to (I'll use demand in lack of a better word, but I mean for them to "teach" or "inform" the young ones of the tribe how important it is that they hang on to their culture.. or something like that... hope you get what I mean) demand that the young people of the tribe teach themselves this language and keep up the ways of their parents/ancestors or maybe introduce new people to the culture and "embedding" them into it? The latter seems like an extreme measure, and may be a bit exaggerated, but the main question is: should we do our best to preserve "dying" cultures, and how would this be done? |
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it's a very interesting topic and a well-formed introduction. |
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yes, diversity is a good thing and we should do everything in our power to preserve as many as possible. english is really a boring language but easiest to learn for that reason, but the world would look way too silly if we all only spoke english. my mother language is one of the endangered ones as well i think, as the population keeps descending.. |
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hahaha! I'm lost as to if that's irony or not, but it's funny either way |
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no, i was being serious. i have been thinking about this topic for a while now, since talking to tolstoyed about it, actually. and i have my own opinion, but it's rather poorly-informed. so mostly i'm interested in reading what is said in this thread. |
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yeah, there are many things that speak for diversity.. it actually seems more likely that if we had more cultures to each area of land, in such a density that one culture wouldn't grow large enough to actually have the power to "conquer" another, there would be fewer wars. The problems didn't start by themselves (by that I mean that they didn't start from some rulers wish to expand his kingdom as opposed to revenge or other provoked fights) until a culture became large enough to actually have what it would take to conquer another. |
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just throw your opinion out here. diversity probably helps here too as opinions can be debated and debates often lead people to see issues from other points of view or even to discover new aspects of their own point of view. |
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one point i will make now is: do you think people are losing culture completely, or are the endangered cultures changing? in other words, do we ever lose culture, or does it simply change into a new culture? |
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that's just ridiculous. English is far, far from a boring language. if you take the time and effort you can do beautiful things with English. but I guess that goes for just about every language. if you know the intricacies of a language you can do great things with it. |
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it might have been so in the past, but that surely isn't the case nowdays..well, except for america perhaps :) but seriously, culture seem to bond people. we had a really healthy culture scene in the former yugoslavia..nowdays the only thing that everyone seem to miss is the disappearence of that cultural space..me including. |
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well, i don't know whether it's slovenian, but the fact is that i often can't find a proper english word for some expression that we have at least 5 words for.. |
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the problem with that is that you don't take into account natural growth and natural diaspora. these are facts of humankind - they will always exist. as for wars, that's as much of a political issue as a cultural one. |
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well.. in my opinion, both things are happening. some cultures are just being overrun by others (like the one with only 5-10 people left.. this one will probably disappear and remain only as a article in national geographic) and some are just mixing like most "western" countries. the easiest examples are mcdonalds and coca cola which, if "exaggerated," could be seen as an "americanization" of other societies (I'm not clear on the details here, but I have seen several professors of different status speak out about the "americanization" of the norwegian society, and they always mentio mcdonalds and coca cola... I do, however, think that these two chains are most commonly just used as symbols, and are not the cause of the "americanization" themselves.. I also think that the word "americanization" probably could be substituted for "globalization," as they are talking about societies becoming more and more alike across nations).. I ramble a bit, but I hope you see what I mean... |
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they're extinguishing imo..but usually in those cases people who are affected are too concerned with trying to survive and don't have time to think about their culture.. |
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The people who speak those languages should be given the opportunity to decide. And it seems thet they're more to say: yes, we want our culture to survive. And we should keep them also for pure science purposes. |
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I think that's rather you than anything. :P you've said yourself that your English isn't that great (although I'd say it's great..). |
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i agree with that assertion. i mean, you have the European Union now. globalization is very real and on the rise. the eu is trying to get economically cutthroat, like america, in their constitution. american culture seems to be pervading most countries in the world, especially with corporate interests. my understanding is that westernization is the main cause of the loss of traditional cultures throughout the world as a result of globalization. |
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that said, every language has words that are hard or even impossible to translate. for example, there is no real English translation for the Dutch word "gezellig". "cosiness" comes somewhere near it, but it isn't wat "gezellig" really means. it's even hard to describe what it means. |
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well, english vocabulary is very small compared to slovenian, croatian and serbian..even italian. i can't tell about others since i don't know any :) but it's a very well known fact over here that slovenian is a very rich language..i wonder if there are any statistics of how many words there are in different vocabularies..that would be great to check. |
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Speak Esperanto or die. |
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there is no translation for the spanish word.rodeo. |
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Oh, english vocabulary is awfully rich. I don't think slovenian is richer. The same with polish. But we sure have more complicated grammars. |
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you do know that more words doesn't necessarily mean that the language is more effective and/or useful? |
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well.. if you take growth into account for each culture and say that they at some point all had approximately the same population.. most cultures grew from small tribal societies to larger political structures with chieftains and counsils of elders and then onto kings and government. The original societies were of somewhat similar size and if they all grew equally much, wars would be hard and alliances easier. of course, this would once again lead us back up to the globalization, as people from one tribe may want to talk to the people in the tribe they were allied to... |
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that all depends on the amount of synonyms vs unique meanings I'd say... the more unique words, the more flexible and effective the language would be for exact transferrance of meaning... however, such a language would most likely have to be constructed, so it won't matter... |
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well, we disagree then :) qrter, sure..the thing is im really spoiled with slovenian..it's such a cool language..so many beautiful words..you should learn it one day..when you have the time :) |
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i don't think that the relative sizes of populations is the problem. throughout history, the fragmented regions have had as much or more war as the more coherent ones. alliances are just the flipside of the coin. war is all about politics, not so much culture. |
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yeah, and there are also the thing with one tribe holding a more desired area (with lots of water for instance), which could lead to two other tribes allying to get it or one tribe gearing up for war with the one holding the area just chilling out. |
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I once met a slovenian kid with crooked teeth, he taught me how to say "my name is with gauze in their mouth saying the same thing in english. Something like "Maw nam eah Lee" |
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right. so back on topic: what are the benefits of preserving a culture? |
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slovenian is the autechre of language. english is the rock and roll. :D |
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haha, quite close..it's 'moje ime je' - moye(h) ime(h) ye(h) |
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haha right..latin is the autechre i'd say. slovenian would be aphex twin :D |
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well, it could be argued that the other parts of the culture - the art, music, stories and mythology and so-on are.. well, I'd say "interesting, but not useful," and at the same time note that not everything has to be useful to justify its own existence... |
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Someone once told me that Eskimos have 30-some words for 'snow' because they see so much of it, and not suprisingly the English language has 30-some words for 'idiot'. |
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haha :D |
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well, i asked what the benefits were as opposed to the "practical" aspects. |
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i'd say that "art, music, stories and mythology and so-on" are fantastic benefits of culture. |
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can somebody translate this thread in a few words..in my language please...its dutch..thanks. |
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that's nothing.. sami has more than 300 I think. |
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yeah, so those things in themselves should be enough to make one want to preserve the entire culture, but how could we do that when the young ones want "more" out of their lives and go searching for jobs in towns where their language won't help? |
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yes, and different cultures provide different perspectives on life. |
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oh, and another question.. how about the appearance of "internet cultures" which in a way are starting to grow their own languages and myths? xltronic even has a history, which as Huizinga sees it makes it closer to being a civilization.. of course we need other things too, but when we have "history," we've gone a long part of the way... |
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who are you 'saving' the culture for though? |
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myself, r40f, anyone who wants to know about it and who may find pleasure in its art and mythology (and there are MANY people who enjoy stuff like that). |
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what's the question? |
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so does the culture not live on with these people (including yourself)? |
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that's my point. there is a big step in the thinking that is being glossed over. art and music exist in pretty much all cultures. how do you get to the idea that something should be preserved because it is rare to the detriment of an overall change in the culture? sometimes changes are better than traditions - how can you say now which is best for another culture? |
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diversity seems to me something which naturally emerges, like entropy does. so in that sense, although the world on one hand might seem to globalise, on the other hand there'll be plenty of other areas in which the diversity's growing. let's take the internet, for example. the internet-community can be largely seen as an english speaking community. and in that sense pretty monotonous. on the other hand, there are plenty of online communities with their own slang. xlt and watmm, for instance. so in short, diversity is something which will inevitable emerge. just as long as people want to distinguish themselves from others, or in other words, there is a sense of individualism, there will be something like diversity. as a sidenote: i don't think diversity should be forced. so a language which is only known by about 5 people on this planet, shouldn't be kept artificially alive. just let nature take it's course... |
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oh, I didn't formulate one... hmmm.. a bit disorientated right now.. got to get my stuff together and get back to my place in a while so I'm running around looking for my stuff... I'm also contemplating stealing the crappy mic that's lying here, but I don't have a comp right now, so... I meant.. would such "new" cultures, if they were dying out, be subject to the same kind of "preservationism" (if that's a word) as the other cultures? |
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