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 Now online (2)-crazone belb ...and 336 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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actually that was a bit of a spiel of bullshit ykno it sort of felt like i was just mixing your point of view with being a rapist or something. i got confused. sry. pls skirt around the shite i typed and only see what i really meant to explain |
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People are responsible for their actions; however, their actions are often guided by a clever marketing campaign that tempts people, especially young people, (as they are more susceptible) into borrowing money that they perhaps don’t really need. They call it a ’ credit card’ even the name is misleading, a better name would be a ‘debt card’ The banks were reckless in how they assessed the borrowers, giving out credit too easily; they also gave out mortgages to people who couldn’t afford to pay them back. They thought that if the borrower failed to pay they could just repossess the property and so they would never really lose, but house prices went into rapid decline, so that fucked them up. We started seeing a big increase in businesses and personal accounts going bankrupt (including my waffle business) and then people started to panic when they heard that there was a crisis, so they stopped spending, which made things even worse. We had to lower interest rates, print off more money; that increased inflation and then start pumping tax money to the banks and even into Europe to stop them from crashing. We also started selling off our gold reserves that was a very bad mistake that ended up costing tax payers 7 billion! Now we have all of these tax rises, benefit cuts and other stealth taxes like giving a little in one hand and taking more with another. There is a political wall of entanglement that blinds most people to what is actually happening, which is that we are slowly sinking deeper into a hole in which are children will never escape from. Why? Because as our economy weakens, economy in the Far East is getting stronger, which means within the next 20 years we could reverse roles with China and become their sweatshop... we may face a decision to allow China to save our economy from completely crashing, allowing them to take us by the balls or start WW3 |
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This thread really isn't about the UK-- it's about oppression and killing the freedom of The People to get infinite pussy cash. There is nothing anybody or any mass of people can do to change the flow of "modern society and government" by working within the System, because the System was created by corruption and runs on corruption. Pussy and money to the top; throw as many slaves into trash cans as possible to get that money gold pussy. Voting is bullshit, protesting is half-bullshit, common rational intelligence on this matter is half-bullshit. The only thing that can make positive change of the System, is radical, immediate, and forceful death of it. As Chinua Achebe wrote: "If a man comes into my hut and defecates on the floor, what do I do? Do I shut my eyes? No! I take a stick and break his head." But if you're not gonna go all out on a Cosmic Revolution for Freedom, training levitation for 1000 years, then the best thing to do is move. THAT IS REVOLUTIONARY AND BEST ACTION. You cannot change the System from living within the System-- this is the same as trying to change the actions of prison guards by being in a prison-- i.e. that is not your place to make influential decisions on matters of societal functioning. So you use the System to your benefit as much as you can, and then you cash out and live by your rules; not letting THEM or anyone defecate on your floor-- your floor that you have 100% RIGHT TO LIVE ON IN PEACE. |
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whatabout countries where people didn't abuse credits? you there are a lot of them and yet they are in the same situation... maybe it's because there's something more to it than irresponsible normal dudes taking credits for a tv |
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Whereas, in Australia and Brasil, where this reckless spending was less prevalent, they're booming. |
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Don't forget about Iceland... |
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I thought that had caved in on itself in one massive black hole vortex of unearnt wealth and negative equity? |
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well, that and they're sitting on some of the world's largest mineral deposits at the height of a mining boom. |
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source? |
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yeah lol at australia and brazil as comparison :D i mean, why isn't belgium or the netherlands growing like them, must be because their people just indebted themselves to death uh? and why can't we all grow like china or qatar uh? would be far easier... LOL |
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for americans this is pretty funny |
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i keep finding people that hate others for being a little weak but actuallly dont get that upset about evil rich pricks. some unspoken respect. |
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Are they booming for that reason - or are they booming because they can patch up the cracks in their systems with easy money from their resource industries (something the UK cannot do)? |
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Drill Rods; probably a bit of both. The key thing, however, is that they were able to patch it up. If you can patch it up when the borrowing gets a bit out of hand, then it wasn't really reckless borrowing (nor, conversely, lending) in the first place, as they had the means to repay it. It's borrowing when you have nothing of any value to sell, to cover the shortfall, which is dangerous and "borrowing beyond your means". Ampi Max: Oh, I disapprove of the reckless lending and (even more) of the weakness of the government that permitted this, whilst lacking the balls to say upfront, "if it goes wrong, on your head be it, we won't back you up". Which alone might have been enough to avert this whole mess. It's just that my opinion is that I see adequate volumes of hatred directed at the banks, almost enough going in the direction of the state and personally feel I do not see enough aimed at the end user who failed to uphold, what us objectivists refer to as, 'the sanctity of contract' that they made with the banks in the first place. As to admiration; I have to admit the sheer brass balls of them going on the radio and claiming "RBS was overvalued and the taxpayer needs to accept they'll never get that bailout money back." was spectacular. I don't condone it or even respect it, but hot damn, it'd have taken some nerve to keep a straight face whilst saying that. I don't hate the weak for being weak. If I feel anything at all for them, it's pity. I only hate them when they expect me to pick up the tab for their weakness. My stance is: Do what you want; Just settle the bill like a man at the end of it. |
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so back to my poignant abused wife example cos its a real goodun. im adressing the points youve made with this example: 1: she shouldnt have married that manipulative man that now abuses her? he promised her a lot and was very good at hiding his cruel nature. is it still her fault? 2: she isnt upholding her end of the 'contract' because now shes not 'taking responsibility' for her decsision to marry him? does she have to roll with the punches for a bit? 3: how does she 'take responsibility' and escape this problem without help? perhaps he has made it too difficult to escape? -------------------------------------------- also some points that stick with me: * does saying 'take responsibility' actually get anything done in terms of stopping stupid people making mistakes that you have to clean up later? * what happens to those who wont learn to sort their own problems? they dont die out and disappear so dont they just continue to drain/damage society? * isnt the only option to keep trying to help them not be a burden? |
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but this: a racist twat is going to damage society somewhere along the line but i havnt got the time nor sympathy to help him feel happier and more open about believing a less shit idea. ill let him rot and get on with my own self interested existence. he'll still be a burden though one way or another so ive only escaped him in a superficial way. you get what i mean |
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It's not my job, nor my responsibility, to 'fix' people who are assholes. I have a limited number of hours on this earth and I want to choose how I spend them. If you want me to spend some of these hours on helping people who: A) I don't care about, or actively dislike. B) Are unlikely to ever be able/willing to reciprocate and help me. You need to compensate me for my time/effort. Given 'B', this tends to mean that the people who wind up paying for this are the rest of us. RE: Your three points. 'Take responsibility' is a political stance. I pay for the existence of the state solely to insulate me from these people. Not to loot my time/effort/money to support them. 'What happens to these people?' They tend to have fairly shit, meaningless lives, lacking in meaningful experiences. They have largely negative interactions with the people around them, they constantly butt up against "the establishment" and they tend to be unhappy and unfulfilled as a result of this behaviour. That's very sad and I'd rather they didn't, but it's their problem, not mine. If I help them, I should get to choose which of them I help and in which way I do so. Charity isn't 'charity' when it's mandatory. There are lots of other options compare to continuing to bale them out: Exile, Execution, Let them starve, Enslave them and put them into forced labour camps. Most of these are brutal and unpalatable to most people and rightly so. I like the more civilised version of "let them starve and put them in forced labour camps." If you are able to work, you work and you get to eat in return. In short, you stop getting a free ride. Yes, they're still not going to be anywhere near as useful to society as a 'normal' person is. The net result of their existence is still going to probably be that they diminish the quality of it for the rest of us. It's just that the amount that they fuck it up for the rest of us (and that we're expected to subsidise it) is decreased. |
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Terrifying. Thank god I don't come into contact much with the likes of you, oh except when I occassionally read the daily mail web articles and comments. |
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It's in the interest of both parties not to interact too much when they have wildly differing fundamental philosophical beliefs. There's a fair degree of evidence that even without the state to do this, humans self-organise in a way that ensures this (through 'emergence'). They tend to live with and choose to predominantly interact with and form social bonds with, people who share their views. For the record, I find the Daily Mail as laughable as The Morning Star. |
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I agree the Daily Mail is as laughable as The Morning Star. The commonality end there. |
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Aw, we both like IDM too. :D |
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Not really anymore and that's another reason why I should stop posting here. |
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Ha ha, me too. BoC and some Aphex still get a bit of a listen now and then, but most other 'classic IDM' doesn't do it for me either. |
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wow ceri just wow, why not give them an appartment and food and some form of education/training instead of money so they can become more like you then? forced labor, slavery lol you fund the state to insulate you from people who're not like you? really? sounds like you've got a problem with society... |
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Rand summed it up best, "Civilization is the process of setting man free from men." Giving them an apartment and food and education is vastly preferable to giving them cash. Those things still cost money to provide, however. Guess where that money comes from? |
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Part of the reason there needs to be social work and those kinds of programs is not just to take your tax money and give it away to people who can't or won't earn it themselves, but it is also to simultaneously manage those parts of society. If you cut off all the programs and leave them to their own devices, which as has been stated won't usually get them out of their situation, desperation sets in and now you are spending the same money on police that you could have spent on social programs and spending it again on the prison system and taking care of them anyway. The answer is just reforming the programs to be effective on all fronts. |
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If social reform winds up being cheaper than policing and actually works, of course, I'm all for it. It doesn't make me resent paying for it any less, but at least it's cheaper. What I would say, however, is that I foresee technology in the next 20 years (facial recognition, ID, and 'personal drones' in particular) reducing the cost of policing quite dramatically, whilst simultaneously hugely increasing the detection and prosecution rates. The balance of where social programs are 'cheaper in total', than policing and reform, will consequently move. I would suggest that the social reformers need to pull out some short term miracles if it's going to make economic sense to continue in this direction longer term. ------------ Please don't misunderstand me; I'd rather we didn't wind up with an Equilibrium/Minority Report style police state. |
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Ceri JC: This is the thread where I fell in love with you. I like your politics, son. |
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I miss Diablo. Back in the day he'd be all over this and in comparison, his views would make me look like the slightly left of centre libertarian that I really am. |
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all you need now is for colani to drop in so you 3 can come together and form might makes right neo liberal capitalist voltron. happy days. |
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so you're saying that for society to provide good care and equal chances for all it should't cost more than sending people to prison?? i think society has to take care of it's own weak people, and to me cost shouldn't be the first issue, off course you don't wat to bankrupt yourself doing so but i REALLY don't think that's the case in the UK... |
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It's not about being bankrupt; it's about me being entitled to enjoy the benefits of my labour. Before anyone assumes I'm talking about having gold-plated taps and eating caviare, let me give a recent real world example. I'm currently selling my house. I predominantly need to move for work (you know, so that I can benefit society through doing my job and pay the taxes that fund all this stuff). Yesterday, I discovered that my seller has withdrawn as their survey found evidence of damp in my loft. This was news to me and I now need to get this fixed before I can afford to move. Of course, in the interim, this means magicking several grand or (responsibly) borrowing money to pay for the work to be done. This is a sudden, large, unexpected cost. That's okay, I'm not complaining about that, that's all part of adult life. What is, at the back of my mind, however, as I look at clearing out my savings (which I had hoped to use to pay the cost of moving) and having to sell off more of my music equipment to fund this, is that if I didn't pay quite so much tax, I would probably have enough savings to pay for this outright. I deferred what I could earn for well over a decade in study, training and lesser paying jobs where I'd gain more experience than jobs I could have taken, that paid more. I'm also now regularly working 12 hour days and travelling for work jobs over weekends. As a result, I sort of feel that I am entitled to take the lion's share of the money I make. I also feel that people who don't even deign to work a mere 37.5 hour week don't really deserve for me to subsidise them. I also, when sometimes commuting for 8 hours in a day, around a full work day and now faced with having to move an hour away from what is 'home' for me, don't really feel a great deal of sympathy when someone bitches about there not being any jobs where they live. As in, there's nothing within a 20 minutes walk of their house. |
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You poor thing, you can't imagine how sorry I am that you have a house and music equipment to sell |
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Ahh, a Rand quote... Saw that coming! Not sure how much of an Objectivist/Libertarian I am, but that line of thought certainly chimes with me at times. Especially when it comes to individual responsibility. Quite an uncommon political stance in the UK/Europe though isn't it? |
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It's also cute that you think your sociopathic ideas are somehow left-of-center because you have neo-nazi friends or whatever |
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Conversely, it's funny how your far-left views mean that you perceive me as some sort of fascist. Despite the fact that on political outlook tests (EG the Political Compass) I repeatedly place slightly left of the centre, which is what I based that statement on. Incidentally, I love the way you completely fail to acknowledge how I came to own a (leaky) house and some music gear, despite my making it clear in my post. You treat it as if it's something that passively "happened" to me by chance, like being born with brown hair, as opposed to the product of years of struggle and sacrifice on my part. I should just be grateful that The People have allowed me to keep these things, instead of confiscating them to redistribute amongst the poor, right? Drill Rods; Yes, it's not that common an outlook in the UK. I know a lot of Americans (ironically, amongst outdoorsmen types, I know through recreation, as opposed to people I know through work) who share this view. I used to loosely consider myself an Anarcho-Capitalist. Although imperfect, it was the closest widely understood political banner with which to identify myself. After reading Rand, I realised the Objectivist model of the state made more sense than having no state at all. IE it needs to exist predominantly for the just (impartial) enforcement of contracts and general law and order. |
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You're an idiot and a monster and I'm not going to argue with you. But please stop telling me and my friends that we deserve to die. |
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I'll respond in kind with the stock Objectivist response to a debate with irrational people, that is going nowhere and will achieve nothing: "I do not agree with you." |
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Fuck you. |
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You (and your friends) deserve to die. |
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J/K :P |
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Yeah I lean that way to some degree. Perhaps I'd phrase it as something like: the State should exist to protect us from things that aren't our fault. I know it is perhaps the most hideous proposition ever to a lot of libertarian types, but I'd include environmental legislation in there - I work at the sharp end of the mining business and I've seen the mess that can be left behind, and how it can fuck people's lives up. I used to read the Guardian and remember seeing one story where George Monbiot (famous-ish enviro type) debated with one of the UK's main libertarian thinkers (some woman, can't recall her name) and remember that he smashed her arguments by asking her whether or not an industry's right to pollute trumps a citizen's right to not suffer ill health thanks to that pollution. That's all a bit off-topic (esp since the UK doesn't have any industry lol) but I enjoy thinking about that line of political thought, and exploring its full ramifications. So yeah, my ideal State would be a bit bigger than a Minarchist's, but still it certainly wouldn't be dishing out money to fund arts and culture or aid or subsidizing farmers etc. |
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If you cut off all the programs and leave them to their own devices, which as has been stated won't usually get them out of their situation, desperation sets in and now you are spending the same money on police that you could have spent on social programs and spending it again on the prison system and taking care of them anyway. This is called "a business model" in America. Private prison corporations make contracts with government for a minimum occupancy rate in their prisons then get paid to enslave prisoners and sell their labor. It's the ultimate expression of Broken social safety net? Great! Three strikes laws? Even better! We'll have you felonious bread-stealers assembling cell phones at gunpoint in no time, because Freedom. |
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Also, I feel we should all bow our heads in silent appreciation of the fact that Ceri JC's damp problem, which by his own admission he is not complaining about and can afford to remediate with some shuffling of resources, is society's most pressing problem, certainly far and above homelessness and hunger. |
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But I agree that Ceri's taxes are probably too high, the strategy in neoliberal countries being to transfer the tax burden from the rich onto the middle class and working poor, the better to breed in them resentment towards "big government", social programs and what we used to call a functioning, civil society. And presto, like a charm, it works. |
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The US judicial and penal systems scare me shitless. The private prisons for one - and the whole notion of mandatory sentencing. And the mad discrepancy between punishments for violent crimes and intellectual property crimes. However, ASSUMING people are punished and imprisoned on a basis that is actually fair and proportional to the crime... I have no problem with the idea of using inmates for labour. If I ever actually committed a real crime and fell foul of the law, I'd jump at the opportunity to make myself useful and make up for my crime. Also re cheap labour: one of the easiest ways to acquire it is with unskilled immigration. So in opposing the "worldwide corporate playground" you run the risk of being racist. Or at least sounding racist. |
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My overriding motto is "let people do want they want, but charge them what it really costs". If you want to dig up the road in central London to lay fibre optic cable, cool; just charge them what this disruption actually costs the local businesses, not some nominal fixed amount that doesn't come anywhere near the true cost of what a ball-ache this is. Want to shoot heroin? Guess what, I'm not against you doing it in principle, so long as you pay for it, don't commit any crimes to fund any addiction that may results and you alone bear the cost of any subsequent rehabilitation you choose to undergo. I am not, by and large, what you'd consider "an environmentalist". I do, however, have a real love of the outdoors and hate private individuals litter there. I have even less patience for a large company that wrecks it.In one of his books PJ O'Rourke, whilst visiting former USSR open cast mine makes a good case for why we should think of a 'nice environment' as a luxury. It's unfortunate (and you'll know this better than most) that industrial and mining processes are often environmentally damaging when they're done on the cheap. It seems wrong that a company is allowed to enjoy greater profits than they would receive if they were to do it properly, if the shortcut hurts even the aesthetics of the surrounding area (never mind people's health). Again, monetise the damage done and make them pay. |
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You make a good point. I was debating the 'ethics of tax avoidance' with someone a while back. He conceded that if the government taxed him at 80%, he would resort to it. I highlighted that whilst people's personal threshold sit at different points on the scale, everyone who has any shred of belief in capitalism in them believes that at some point taxation becomes, "too much". My main grief is not that government don't just spend/waste too much money and could do it more effectively. It's that they are involved in huge numbers of arenas in which they have no business being in at all. |
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If you look at tax rates in the US from , the economic boom years happened with the highest tax rates for the highest tax brackets. Everything went to shit as the tax rates went down(*). Now the rich feel so entitled that even with a 15% capital gains tax, Romney felt he should launder his income through his church to pay an effective rate of zero. So spare me the whining of the rich (and especially the whining of the deluded wannabe and neverwillbe rich who act as their enablers) Anyways, I'm curious, what are the top arenas government shouldn't be in and how is it causing harm? (* Of course the biggest factor that fucked up the US was Nixon's treason that continued the Vietnam war, the expense of which caused the international market to begin demanding gold for dollars, which prompted an American withdrawal from the gold standard, which caused a currency revaluation that looked like inflation but wasn't, which eventually prompted a wrongheaded and devastating contraction of the money supply under Reagan, whose effects continue to be felt to this day in conjunction with Reagan's war on unions, but that's another story) |
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"I know a lot of Americans (ironically, amongst outdoorsmen types, I know through recreation, as opposed to people I know through work) who share this view." I'm one of them, Ceri. |
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