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 Now online (1)-crazone ...and 279 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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Oh, I know sir. I've spent thousands of pound on audio gear, especially for monitoring and I also know quite a bit about mastering in general. I just think that in the audio chain, the room comes way down the list next to a pair of good monitors, some decent headphones (I use HD800s and they're by far the best tool I have for making sure the mix is right) and most importantly, the music itself. That said, i'm not disagreeing with anything said in here. Every track i've had mastered hasn't needed much change in mastering (bar the usual compression etc), and we used to use one of the best mastering houses in the world... so i'm personally pretty happy with my monitoring situation in my room! |
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"room comes way down on the list" LOL, M8. garbage in garbage out. your room makes the final call on how everything sounds. the cavalier tone in which you shrugg offf room treatments is quite laughable. |
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I'm not shrugging it off. All i'm saying is are you honestly putting the room ahead of the monitors and the music itself in the production chain? Unless your room has a glass floor and is in the middle of a stadium surrounded by a giant bubble, it's just less important. Still important, but just less so than the others I mentioned. |
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I should also add that when your music is finally published and out there, it's gonna be heard in so many rooms/cars/radios etc that it's never gonna sound the same in two places anyway. I always do final monitoring on my headphones as they're the flattest, most perfect monitoring tool I have. I do all bass/initial monitoring on proper studio monitors in my mates place, but i'm actually pretty good at monitoring bass on my HD800s now, mainly cos they're so flat and accurate. Thats just the way I prefer to do things and it usually works, especially for the kind of music I produce. |
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Sounds like you got lucky with the room! :) I'm envious; I've had to really hammer the previous rooms I've been working in into a usable state. |
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brisk, "loads of producers have crappy monitors/setups but still make amazing music. i'm with jivver - many audiophiles get too obsessed with the speakers/room and listen to that more than the music itself. " jiv, "I agree with Elusive to an extent but that's like number 5 on the list to tick. I wouldn't enjoy the pure excellence of the bass tones on a five hour DJ set from Dane Bowers, or an accomplished mix of Jordans top ten favourite audio cuddles. " yeah, well pure excellence bass tones are nice when relatively flat response. a (e.g.) +15dB peak at 105hz is downright annoying, and completely overwhelming tax, "Who is this end user your referring to? If your talking about the listener, the room treatment you use is the last thing they should notice. If they can tell what you have done, then you have done something horribly, horribly wrong. " everything i have been referring to has been for my listening room/home/computer desk. i dont make/master music. i am the end user. any listener who knows how to use his ears will surely benefit/notice from room treatments. hell, even my old man did when i took them away/put them back. brisk, "I'm not shrugging it off. All i'm saying is are you honestly putting the room ahead of the monitors and the music itself in the production chain? " sorry, babe - you're putting words in my mouth now and going to polar extremes. not very kind of you. im saying, room treatments are very important and can make an overwhelmingly HUGE difference in the way your room sounds ... at relatively cheap costs. as you go up in price for studio monitors/speakers, you hit point of diminishing returns... where you might pay an extra $2000 for 5% better performance (if you could gauge it like that) ... where as better speakers who are touted for having flat-response, are completely irrelevant once they are put in YOUR room with crazy room modes, reflections, flutter, reverb decay times, and comb filtering |
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i think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of debate here. im not arguing or telling you how to master your music, or that you can't record good music without a perfect room. i am an end user. im discussing my gratitude towards rooms that sound good ... and how making your room for listening (or mastering) sound good - is relatively cheap and easy ... and shouldn't be thrown around/regarded as the "last item in the chain" or "last thing to worry about" ridiculous. my speakers are nothing special. ive noticed huge gains by eliminating fundamental errate regarding simple physics in my room. there is no escaping room modes, comb filtering, etc no matter how good your speakers are. hell, spending an extra $2000 on studio monitors isnt going to get me much better stereo imaging when i have massive comb filtering. a couple panels at early/first reflection points did wonders for stereo imaging when i listen to music. |
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brisk, "I should also add that when your music is finally published and out there, it's gonna be heard in so many rooms/cars/radios etc that it's never gonna sound the same in two places anyway." im talking about my listening room. im talking about how music sounds in *my house i dont care if your room sounds like shit. when i listen to music i want to experience it as best as i can. i dont give 2 shits about where or how it was mastered. im the end user. the only thing i care about is what and how sound enters my ears for processing. brisk, HOLY SHIT. you just nullified your entire argument!!! "I always do final monitoring on my headphones as they're the flattest, most perfect monitoring tool I have. I do all bass/initial monitoring on proper studio monitors in my mates place, but i'm actually pretty good at monitoring bass on my HD800s now, mainly cos they're so flat and accurate. " you are arguing this whole time that room treatments should be last on the list....the last thing to worry about. and then you comment that you do your final mastering on your new HD800s because they are flat and accurate! LOL. my head explodes from logic conflict. also, im not expect on mastering, but isn't mastering on headphones a bit dangerous? i have read (but could be wrong) that it can be dangerous because you can hear the subtleties very easy/effortless on headphones, so you might master them (quiet bits, soft melodies, etc) how you hear them ... but when you listen on speakers, you find they are a bit too quiet/hard to hear on a normal speaker setup. any truth to this in your experience? |
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i think thats the crucial point you made though elusive. you're a listener, not a producer. when you're making music, your number 1 concern is the music itself. i've got a decent setup which works for my ears (and others it seems!) but it's still nothing without a decent idea in the first place. my ears and approach to music shift drastically when producing music and listening to it. the room, the monitoring equipment, the headphones... in their own way, they all make a comprisise. the key is choosing the comprimise which works best for you :) |
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i don't think you're wrong with the whole room treatment thing, but dont be such a dick about it |
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and can you give me those tuss flacs pls? |
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it does sound a bit lazy, no? dont really care about where or how something is recorded...just get it down and be lazy and let computer make it sound good when its being mastered. right? if you have a -20dB null at 700hz in your room, when you eq that in mastering, what happens to the rest of sound in that vicinity? you can only expect to recover so much... i understand the creation aspect (i think what jiv was eluding to in his earlier post) (e.g. when you're in the moment - when you're creating something special right then and there) .. you dont need to stop and kill the mood/moment wondering if your room is setup right. but comon - all this talk about buying nice studio monitors with flat response is laughable ... because all that shit goes right out the window when they're installed in your room. bit like buying a ferrari but only able to drive it in an apartment complex parking lot. |
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No, again you're misreading what I say by throwing your ADHD into the mix and typing without reading. All my initial mixes are on monitors. My sisters boyfriend has a decent studio near me and I always make sure the soundstage works right for speakers. After that, i'll mixdown again, this time monitoring on my 800s. They're useful for frequency monitoring and tweaking the finer details, especially in the high end. Again, both are used. And yes, mastering on headphones is risky for the points you mentioned, but not totally impossible. Theres a good article on headphones for monitoring/mastering if you're interested. |
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music, your number 1 concern is the music itself. i've got a decent setup which works for my ears (and others it seems!) but it's still nothing without a decent idea in the first place. " so what? install room treatments and you dont have to think about it again. you act as if room treatments are actual work and every time you go to record you need to setup/configure.. it's a one time thing...put some effort into your room, which is largely the single biggest factor in your output, no? it's hilarious how you are so resistant on something such as room treatments ... like i have to force it down your throat like forcing a child to wash the dishes... like you see it as actual "work" instead of a tool in your toolbox. understanding your room, physics, acoustics, etc is a vital understanding to mastering. how can you claim to be a mastering engineer (talking in general, not directly to you) if you don't understand exactly what is happening as you master? or how the room affects output? or a host of other variables. i cant even begin to tell you how much more i enjoy bass with some traps setup. hell, just minimizing soem annoying resonances under my computer desk was more rewarding than any tuss album |
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"All my initial mixes are on monitors. My sisters boyfriend has a decent studio near me and I always make sure the soundstage works right for speakers. After that, i'll mixdown again, this time monitoring on my 800s. They're useful for frequency monitoring and tweaking the finer details, especially in the high end. ah, so you have the luxury of having a studio close by that surely (i assume) has room treatments. so you are taking advantage of them. it's ok - you're only creating more work for yourself whether you want to admit it or not. by getting your recording room to sound a bit better (less flutter/echo, less comb filtering, less room modes (peaks/nulls), and all that --- you're creating less work for yourself when it comes time to master. and you can only expect to recover so much (eq'ing) before you start to degrade other aspects, no ? "Again, both are used. And yes, mastering on headphones is risky for the points you mentioned, but not totally impossible. Theres a good article on headphones for monitoring/mastering here if you're interested. " thanks - ill be sure to give it a read when i find some time...always interested in hearing commentary from people (like you) who are directly involved in the topic/subject. (real experiences). |
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I'm not resiliant to it lol... i've said time and time again in this thread that I agree with your point about treating a room if it sounds shit, but in the production chain, it's not the number 1 priority for a producer. For a mastering engineer and perhaps a listener, this might not be the case. "put some effort into your room, which is largely the single biggest factor in your output, no? " No. The single biggest aspect is the music itself. Thats all i'm saying, I dunno what else I can tell you other than you're taking this whole thing a little too seriously. |
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"No, again you're misreading what I say by throwing your ADHD into the mix and typing without reading. " you're the one who initially commented / put words in my mouth saying im spouting off that room treatments are more important than "music itself in the production chain" keep it civilized and focused on debate/education/etc... thanks? |
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"I'm not resiliant to it lol... i've said time and time again in this thread that I agree with your point about treating a room if it sounds shit, but in the production chain, it's not the number 1 priority for a producer." no one is saying number 1 priority. you act like im saying it's all or nothing. "MAKE ROOM TREATMENTS TOP PRIORITY OR NOTHING AT ALL !" i understand your point about music coming first. im not debating that here - i think we're just both passionate about different aspects in the chain. cheers, |
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"My sisters boyfriend has a decent studio near me ..." holy shit that is a great ice-breaker/pickup line. cant wait to use it on the ladies |
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His studio is actually in the attic of his house and he doesn't have any of the bass traps or other things you mentioned. He just has a good pair of ears (like myself) and we know when something sounds right. Maybe we're lucky with our room setups as ochre said, but we can easily spot when a frequency range is spiking in the room by checking the sound digitally via a spectrum analyser (of which i always have one in the master bus anyway) or just listening with headphones. I don't think enough producers put emphasis on how crucial headphones are to the final mix. When half the pop market listens to music on their ipods for hours every day, you'd think they'd actually try and make the tunes sound good on them. Some stereo soundstaging in pop tunes in particular are AWFUL on headphones. |
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Well that was just the impression I got when reading your posts in here. Sorry if I misunderstood. |
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" When half the pop market listens to music on their ipods for hours every day, you'd think they'd actually try and make the tunes sound good on them." i thought that's the heart of the very problem in today's mastering??? everyone is mastering for ipods. i concede defeat in that regard - i should have realized from the start we were debating different aspects. i should have made more clear earlier on i was in total reference to a/my listening room (not actual recording). we all know how recording in funky rooms (or bank vaults) can have a pleasing/special effect on the music. |
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I remember reading that a few engineers now provide different masters for different things. Radio play has its own master, ipods on itunes have their own master (aka no need for bass because the stock phones don't have any, lulz) and then the general studio master which in theory should sound good for everything. I find it all a bit pointless though. Stuff like Rhythm & Sound is brilliant to my ears whatever I use to listen to it on. |
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i dont see why you need a one-size-fits all mastering, even if the returns may not be completely noticable/worth the effort. it's all about design requirements. i dont see/have any issue with mastering multiple times for different output mediums. makes perfect sense. whether it's worth the effort/time/money, etc - isn't my decision to make and is dependent upon that specific application/design requirements. we're just a couple of cozy kttns over here; debatin musics at the barber shop |
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It's still an interesting thread, since i usually make music with just my headphones on, i never really check it out on the big speakers because i don't want to bother anyone with my noise/i'm very secretive of what i'm working on. I master/mix-down my tracks a bit on the spot and perhaps some after treatment if i think it needs to, but I've never heard anyone complain about the sound quality really, and i know that some of the people that hear my work definitely know a thing or two about sound quality and engineering. Or people automatically assume my music is headphone music so they listen to it on the headphones by default, i don't know. This thread makes me want to look right more into it, but yet on the other hand i don't want to fix something that might not be broken. |
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treating your room is great and all, but it looks ugly as fuck if you're doing it the DIY way. I'm moving to a place which has very high ceilings. something like 5 meters high I think. and I'm pretty sure it's gonna reverberate like crazy. I only have a seperate bedroom so I have to put my stuff there. but I'm not gonna mess it up by placing ugly panels and what not. I've mixed on hi-fi speakers for years before I recently got genelec 8040 speakers from a stoner who bought all this expensive stuff but then realized he also needed talent. so I bought these from him at 900 euro. normally these easily cost the double. I like how they sound. not super bass heavy, very neutral and I'm ok with that. lots of definition in the high end though. my current room (25m²) is untreated but if there is one thing I've learned from mixing all these years on hi-fi it is that you have to learn to know the speakers you mix on. that way you compensate for it. you do it subconsciously after a while. listen to your fav track on your speakers in no matter what room and use that as a reference for mixing. works perfect. and listen to it on as much speakers and headphones as possibe. I have 2 pairs of headphones. one in ear from senheiser and one normal from AKG. switching between these 3 and even computers at work gives results that are very good ofcourse if you are a professional mastering engineer, recording bands etc, the story is different. pro gear in general is overrated and is often used to compensate for a lack of talent. |
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Keep it simple, keep it real, give it flaws, give it soul. |
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impakt, maybe in your opinion for your recordings, but certainly not for listening/playback. quite laughable, actually. "hey, this small, square room sounds like absolute shit - but man, listen to the soul of the tuss!" isnieZot, you get good results on your current setup/process. good for you. that doesn't take away from the fact that room treatments are beneficial and another tool in your toolbox. "thing I've learned from mixing all these years on hi-fi it is that you have to learn to know the speakers you mix on." lol. put those same speakers in a different room and they sound totally different. how can you "learn" your speakers? do you mean "learn your room on a particular set of speakers"?? i didn't think humans possessed the capability to conscienceless know the freq ranges they are experiencing via comb-filtering. you must be uncanny. tell me - have you ever spent considerable time in a room with treatments? have you recorded with treatments? mastered? listened? im curious to know if many of the people who dont have treatments and complaining that they dont need them and are doing just fine without them - have ever actually spent time in a treated room. if so, what didn't you like? what did you like? "I'm moving to a place which has very high ceilings. something like 5 meters high I think. and I'm pretty sure it's gonna reverberate like crazy. I only have a seperate bedroom so I have to put my stuff there. but I'm not gonna mess it up by placing ugly panels and what not. " well, in a large room like that you're going to have some crazy room modes. good luck trying to tame that without room treatments. "pro gear in general is overrated and is often used to compensate for a lack of talent. " way to generalize. "treating your room is great and all, but it looks ugly as fuck if you're doing it the DIY way. " more broad, sweeping generalizations. |
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"well, in a large room like that you're going to have some crazy room modes. good luck trying to tame that without room treatments." It's not about taming anything, it's hearing/making music you enjoy. I love going to sleep listening to a mono radio thing playing good music every night. I don't think I'd be better off laid exactly in the 'sweet spot' of a calibrated, audio scientist approved listening pod. |
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if having a treated room is like real important how come lots of people dont care very much about it........ ...... ...its cos these people are really very dull and not smart. these people dont know their own ears and you may see them doing something really dumb like pressing a compact disc against there head in a laughable attempt to 'hear' it. when people who are less ridiculous try to explain sound to everyone the IDIOTS start saying lots of fucking dumb stuff. just copy and paste what they have said and put it in quotation. you then label this quarantined section of toxic spaztext with a snitty comment about how stupid it is so others dont think its a genuine opinion. |
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" It's not about taming anything, it's hearing/making music you enjoy. I love going to sleep listening to a mono radio thing playing good music every night. I don't think I'd be better off laid exactly in the 'sweet spot' of a calibrated, audio scientist approved listening pod. " again with this "all or nothing" attitude that has been pushed in this thread. hilarious. you like listening to a mono recording every once in a while - good for you. no one is saying every situation you have to be in has to be studio quality. the point is there some cheap, diy treatments that would be beneficial to almost any application. a pair of 2" 24"x48" panels at early/first reflection points do wonders - absolute wonders for reducing comb-filtering and more importantly, soundstage/increased stereo imaging. total cost? probably $40-50. why are you comparing your mono-bed-time-listening setup to someone in a 25m^2 room with 15ft ceilings? there is no middle ground with those opposing room treatments. every post i made here has been in reference to cheap diy treatments...not pushing people to spend $100s to 1000s of dollars on snake-oil bullshit. |
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"It's not about taming anything, it's hearing/making music you enjoy" well, i love hearing my music. i dont go ape-shit about audiophile nonsense and bragging rights. however, even my dad can tell a fucking massive spike at 150hz when i play a sine-sweep. my favorite bubbly-part of last rushup 10 gets destroyed by a few peaks i have. same with the bass on pissed up in se-1. it's not like im focusing all my attention on artifacts, but the peak in those bass ranges in my setup is COMPLETELY overwhelming and distracting as hell. it's really overwhelming. im not arguing about making your room flat-response or nothing at all .... im saying a few panels to tame and make your room sound good can be the most pleasurable and satisfactory upgrade in your system ... not to mention the price to performance ratio is lower than any other factor! and because it's diy - you are learning about the subject, learning about your room, building things yourself - overall can be much more rewarding. |
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ampi max, i can't tell if you're agreeing with me or snotting at me. |
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right i think that it's incredible how music sounds different depending on the position of my speakers and myself in the house. if turn my head it sounds different, if i step back it sounds different, if i go into another room a song sounds even totally different pitches. it's no tits |
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im actually installing some 2" panels in my place (just live in a small, single room loft/studio) away from the speakers because i dislike the sound of my room when people are talking. lots of echo/reverb/etc. really annoying at night when it is quiet how small voices can become quite loud. |
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Do you notice the difference in sound if drawers are left open and not closed fully. |
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this actually makes me jealous. i really dont listen to music in a patient way anymore. i'd like to have more energy for all this kind of thing but i dont really listen to music properly at the moment. ive had a broken amp for 2 years, was second hand when i got it and now i cant change the volume or it sounds all fried. its connected to some shit speakers and one of the paper cones has been pressed in. also my work room is full of bits of shit that all vibrate a lot |
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jivver, you have an all or nothing attitude in this thread. it's one thing to be selling an idea to someone (and selling a product), but to be letting people in on cheap do-it-yourself ideas and etc that you can do to make your setup sound much better ... im pretty sure that's what sharing information is all about. i sure as shit didnt know about room treatments until 4-5-6months ago. over the past few months as ive been opened to this new topic, ive become familiar (and motivated to learn) about acoustics, meausuring, physics, et al. fuckin' rewarding. ampi max, no worries. some shit sounds better on a system like that. boards of canada always sounded best at 48k mp3 playing out of my old PDA mono speaker. but i dont listen to the majority of my music like that. my computer/listening setup i do - so i want that to sound as best as possible. same thing with the $500 chair comment above. most people exclaim why the fuck would you buy a $500 chair? but sit your ass in it for 12-15hours a day, and maybe it would be worth it. same thing with decent monitors. if im going to be staring at a screen all day i sure as shit am not cheaping out on that. |
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yeah, vibrations are the worst. you could fake the 'open air' effect given by the speakers by keeping your headphones, opening the window and lower the level a bit to include some ambience in the music. makes it intereresting sometimes |
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If I was a carpenter I could find your doors and window frames laughable. If I was a plumber I'd laugh at your choice of washers on your faucet. I don't think you are adding anything to your cause lecturing people about sound insulation/proofing. Have you ever enjoyed a piece of music that wasn't in a perfect situation? |
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you are all barking up the wrong tree. i've found that by sitting on the floor and playing my mandolin naked solves any problem with reflection points, early or otherwise, for all but the most astute listener. never underestimate the power of tasteful, inexplicable nudity in a proper stereo recording*. *dealing with mono, obviously, changes things significantly, and requires a considerable outlay on fresh tropical fruit. |
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gayest thread ever |
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Quality addition manamip! |
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jivver, what does sound insulation/proofing have to do with room treatment. clearly you can't be this dull with your vocabulary. but alas, you must be one of those types to just take things as they are. no point making your situation better, no? granite counter-tops or no counter-tops at all, as im sure you would have it. |
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My counter tops are blue pearl granite from Norway. I can't keep saying the same thing elusive. Enjoy music your way and post links for things that might improve other peoples pleasure. |
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The thing I think Elusive isn't considering is that all music, from creation to listening is based on subjective, personal preferences. For example, I might write a piece of music that was made in my garden, with little speakers on my laptop, the birds singing in the background and a nice cold beer next to me. This sounds good to me and this is how I want it to be heard. Obviously in reality, thats not gonna happen and someone elses listening experience might be drastically different. Thats why monitoring flat is a good thing, but for the actual listening experience, it is something else entirely. All headphones and speakers colour the sound in some way and any "deviation" from the original source could be classed as distortion. On the other hand, there are some pieces of music I prefer to listen to on my HD650s rather than my HD800s, simply because I prefer the way certain recordings are shaped by the output. Do you think a band performing in an open air stadium is the best way scientifically to listen to live music? Absolutely not, but people enjoy it all the same. Even the aesthetics of the room can effect how much you enjoy sound. Putting panels everywhere to trap certain frequencies might make the sound flatter, but what if it makes the room look shit? Or what if I just like the way the reverb sounds in my room, or the exageration of certain frequencies? What if i prefer my room to be treated for certain genres of music, but not others? It's not so black and white sir. Nothing ever is when you're discussing something as subjective as music. |
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4:26 am, level 3 on my mac, windows opened, birds singing and all clear illusion of music coming out of my headphones! |
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I'd go as far to say that achieving a completely flat frequency response for listening would be a horrible, lifeless experience. Its exactly why people with valve amps like to roll their tubes. Music is as much about the environment you are in as it is about the sound itself. It's the reason we aren't all put in isolated, soundproof booths when we see someone perform live - music is more than that. |
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no, your mixing flat-response curve and a 'dead' sounding room (from lack of reflections). ouch, that must hurt... |
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*you're ouch, that hurts! |
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