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 (nobody)...and 315 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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Members 8025Messages 2613452 Today 5 Topics 127500 |
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no, seriously. explain to me how a flat-response curve is in any way considered "lifeless" no shit we dont want to be in a completely dead, lifeless room. hence the reason why you only absorb reflection points for mid-highs and other strategic points (boundaries) for bass. no one says line every inch of your room with absorption panels. hell, diffusion is the 2nd step in room treatments...the very thing that helps make the room more "lively" - something i think you're arguing *for* at this very moment. this is hilarious. |
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LOL |
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jivver making the mistake about room isolation/proofing and room treatments was even more hilarious. those two (sound proofing vs room treatments) aren't even related. he should really know better. |
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Flat response is perfect for monitoring, but not necessarily for listening. There are loads of articles online if you search google and they'll explain exactly why. Its exactly the reason some people prefer valve over solid state. |
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It can also be applied to vinyl. There is always roll-off of high frequencies with this format, but some people prefer it. Are you saying they are wrong too? |
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this is hilarious. |
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LOL |
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LOL |
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Wicked. You guys succeeded in trolling each-other better than I have seen in ages, and neither of you seemed to be doing it intentionally. |
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Once again, if your listeners notice what you have done with room treatments through your music, then you have done something wrong. There is only better or worse in creative things. You can't say someone needs to spend a lot of time or money on room treatments because you don't know first hand the environment they are mixing in. You can wank about materials and physics all you want, but in the end your going to sound like someone who just likes the sound of their voice. |
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isnieZot, you get good results on your current setup/process. good for you. that doesn't take away from the fact that room treatments are beneficial and another tool in your toolbox. you're right, they are a benificial tool in your toolbox, but it isn't everything. lol. put those same speakers in a different room and they sound totally different. how can you "learn" your speakers? do you mean "learn your room on a particular set of speakers"?? if you've mixed for 8 years with the same speakers in the same room. I can tell you with 100% certainty that you know how your room and speakers should sound and you adjust to that. actually, the first "rule" when you buy new speakers or monitors for music production is to get to know them by listening random tracks on them allot and really learn how they sound before you actually start mixing on them. tell me - have you ever spent considerable time in a room with treatments? have you recorded with treatments? mastered? listened? im curious to know if many of the people who dont have treatments and complaining that they dont need them and are doing just fine without them - have ever actually spent time in a treated room. if so, what didn't you like? what did you like? well I've spend some time indeed, but not for music production. more to record voices for radio commercials etc... and yes a treated room does sound 100000 times better. I can't argue with that. I would like to have it. But I don't *need* it. I am interested to see how your room looks actually with the treatment and all. care to share any pics? and honestly this is a good thread. finally something music related instead of the daily nonsense |
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i'm curious, what is music other than daily nonsense? |
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this thread is seriously fucked |
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True dat. Fucking ochre. |
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I can just imagine one of his fans typing "ochres setup" in google and then finding this thread and then being sick in disgust. I love it. |
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haha! |
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well, the ochre 'interview' was the most boring reading in earth, i think youve got something more interesting in the thread... |
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seriously - three words guys: tasteful inexplicable nudity 'nuff said |
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o bre |
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Brisk, rolling off is fine. but clearly you aren't seeing that rolling off tube amps has nothing to do with the final output because that is dependent on your room. do you understand what room modes are? simple resonance? comb-filtering??? rolling off is nice because it's generally clean. room comb-filtering looks like a fucking mountain range with peaks and nulls (sometimes +/- 20dB!) you're saying it's acceptable to have certain freq ranges practically NOT EXIST in your room (-20dB null) and other frequencies be +20dB ??? completely overwhelming the sound? this is what room treatments are for - taming crazy peaks and nulls and eliminating comb-filtering. you seem oblivious to just exactly what comb-filtering is. "Its exactly the reason some people prefer valve over solid state. " what the frick does that have to do with taming massive peaks and nulls in your room????? |
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"Once again, if your listeners notice what you have done with room treatments through your music, then you have done something wrong. There is only better or worse in creative things. You can't say someone needs to spend a lot of time or money on room treatments because you don't know first hand the environment they are mixing in. You can wank about materials and physics all you want, but in the end your going to sound like someone who just likes the sound of their voice. " you're completely wrong. whatever and however the album was mixed/mastered/procuded etc has VERY LITTLE to do with me listening to it - because it COMPLETELY changes based on the fundamental issues with MY LISTENING ROOM. do you not understand that ??? im not even a mastering engineer or even close to an expert and i understand this. why do you think the mastering process involves making the album as flat response as possible? so that when it gets played in a host of other environments (my home) - there aren't massive issues. ok - so if the mastering engineer has a room mode (resonance) at 50hz that is +12dB he compensates for this by EQ'ing -12dB in that range... now, bring that record over to my house... since he has now incorrectly provisioned for -12dB at 50Hz ... if my room was properly treated and i had flat-response through that range, i would now have a -12dB null at 50Hz! because the mastering engineer made provisions for HIS system. i don't know why you can't get this through your head, tax...no one is saying that by room treatments i can somehow magically tell what the mastering engineer was doing. im trying to RECREATE the environment that the mastering engineer OR producer made the music in - to get it to sound AS CLOSE TO POSSIBLE as the way it was originally intended to be heard/recorded. fuck - no one is saying room treatments make you hear mastering mistakes or any fucking shit like that. where are you getting this from???? |
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isniezot, "if you've mixed for 8 years with the same speakers in the same room. I can tell you with 100% certainty that you know how your room and speakers should sound and you adjust to that. actually, the first "rule" when you buy new speakers or monitors for music production is to get to know them by listening random tracks on them allot and really learn how they sound before you actually start mixing on them. " cool... now move your listening position back 12" or forward and due to comb-filtering, the sound could completely change. this is even more prvelent with the low-end, as the wavelengths are so much longer (the peaks and nulls) ... why do you think you never put your listening position in the middle of a room ???? "well I've spend some time indeed, but not for music production. more to record voices for radio commercials etc... and yes a treated room does sound 100000 times better. I can't argue with that. I would like to have it. But I don't *need* it. " well, i dont *need* $2000 speakers, either.. i can live with $300 set. i dont *need* xxxxx. you can substitute anything you want there. however, you clearly are just stubborn now. even if i gave you free room treatments that made your room sound much much better, you would still stick to your "im doing just fine without room treatments, thank you very much!" tone. |
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Brisk, have you spent considerable amount of time in a room with room treatments? if so, can you outline the setup? or are you debating on false grounds. you dont need to spend $500 on room treatments. a pair of fucking acoustic panels for early/first reflection points cost you less than $50 and would do wonders for mid/high comb filtering and increasing the sound stage/stereo imaging. ARE YOU TELLING ME YOU DON'T WANT TO INCREASE STEREO IMAGING/SOUNDSTAGE? no one is saying you can't listen to music without room treatments. but when people are commenting on multi-thousand dollar speaker setups, it's fucking laughable! no matter how good the speakers are you put in your room, you're still going to have FUNDAMENTAL issues. what is the big debate? do you not want your room to sound better? do you think you are in some sort of twilight zone where the rules of physics dont apply to you? bunch of lazy twats. cant see the fucking forest for the trees. then you got jivv and tax putting words in my mouth trying to pretend that i cant enjoy a piece of music unless the room is perfect. i cant even begin to tell you how much more detail ive heard in my analords. the punchy/crispyness of 'crying in your face' ... ive got every little bit memorized and when i killed off some reflections, it really came alive. it was by far the cheapest "upgrade" that made noticeable difference i have ever made to my system. |
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i'm done with the thread, sorry elusive. i can't read all that and you're beginning to scare me. just listen to what you think is fine and i'll do the same. no harm done to anyone. |
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ah, so i called you out on information that you presented that was false, and you run for the hills. that's a shame, brisk. ... |
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Brisk, just explain to me your comment, "Its exactly the reason some people prefer valve over solid state. " what does that have to do with taming +/- 20dB peaks and nulls in my listening room? i just want to know what you meant by it and how it is even related to the discussion? |
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I've tried man, I really have. I made a whole post yesterday about how different people like to listen to their music coloured in different ways... exactly the same way a solid state amp may be perceived differently to one which has tubes. Even then, rolling the tubes gives a different sound signiture... it all modifies the output and this is my point. A perfect studio room may not be ideal for everyone listening to music. When I saw AE in manchester, the bass was WAY overpowering, but many people enjoyed this and prefered it. This is all i've been trying to say. I don't want to offend anyone and i've tried to be reasonable in this thread, but I can't regurgitate the same stuff over and over dude. What do you want me to say? |
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and Brisk, im beginning to scare you? why, because ive taken an interest in acoustics and learning why my room sounds like it does - instead of just 'accepting' the way things are? i take what i have and try to make it better. does that put you off? should i just accept the way things are and nasty resonances in my room that overwhelm my music and make me cringe? or should i actually do something about it. why would i even buy better speakers? why shouldn't i just accept the way my speakers sound now and just enjoy the music? what's the point of upgrading any part of your system? you're so stubborn. if you don't want to do it and you're content with your setup, leave it at that. just dont try spouting that they are ineffective and useless. it is by far the cheapest upgrade i have made to my system that made real, noticeable differences in audio quality. it actually saved me from wasting money and upgrading my speakers. |
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Its the same reason stuff like skull candy headphones sell well - they give a bass boost, which some people prefer in their music. It might not be to everyones taste (including my own) but this is just how some people want to listen Elusive. Hope that answers what you wanted from me anyway. I don't think i've presented any false info here, i'm just trying to get my point across the same way as you. No harm done! |
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Brisk, i understand what you're saying. why do you think part of room treatments is diffusion ???? that is about as big of a part of the room as absorption. it disperses sound in multiple directions to make the room sound more "lively" .... you seem to think room treatments are only there to make the room "dead" and have no life. completely of the contrary !!! no one is saying all rooms have to sound the same. that's impossible simply due to physics. however, there is no harm in taming +/- 20dB peaks and nulls in your room. i dont want a flat-response room - i can't afford it. however, i can tame some of the nasty annoyances that are overwhelming to me and always capture my attention (takes my attention away from just listening to the music - because it's so overwhelming)... and what about massive nulls? just because of the length/width/height of my room, that im supposed to just 'accept' a massive null at 60hz - so i essentially never even hear 60hz ??? that's not something you would try to compensate for ? |
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"you're so stubborn. if you don't want to do it and you're content with your setup, leave it at that. just dont try spouting that they are ineffective and useless. " just be aware that i could totally turn this around to you, since you're the one who just wrote nearly a thousand words explaining why we're wrong for not having the same setup as you. |
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"Its the same reason stuff like skull candy headphones sell well - they give a bass boost, which some people prefer in their music. It might not be to everyones taste (including my own) but this is just how some people want to listen Elusive. " ahh, so we should just dumb all conversations down to the lowest common denominator. i find highly suspect that someone buying skull candy headphones even fucking knows what comb-filtering is, let alone room modes/flutter/echo/etc. why should we dumb down all conversations like that? so just because some kid buys skull candy for the cranked bass means people who actually mix/master/make music and understand acoustics shouldn't be able to have intelligent conversations regarding how to make their rooms sound better? are you shit fucking me? i really hate when shit has to be dumbed down during a discussion. |
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"I've tried man, I really have. I made a whole post yesterday about how different people like to listen to their music coloured in different ways... exactly the same way a solid state amp may be perceived differently to one which has tubes. Even then, rolling the tubes gives a different sound signiture..." dude, i understand this. same way listening to vinyl vs a cd. that is not the point of this discussion regarding room treatments!!!!!! please just take a moment to understand this. if i have a room mode that produces an annoying +20dB peak at 60hz --- it doesn't matter if i play vinyl or cd or solid state or live instruments --- IM GOING TO HAVE THAT SAME, ANNOYING +20dB PEAK THAT OVERWHELMS THE REST OF THE SOUND ! what is the harm in taming that ?! it has nothing to do with trying to make vinyl and cd sound the same ,, or solid state with tubes. the room decides the final output no matter what the input ! i think you think im arguing a different point here - maybe im not communicating effectively. |
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"just be aware that i could totally turn this around to you, since you're the one who just wrote nearly a thousand words explaining why we're wrong for not having the same setup as you. " ha! putting more words in my mouth / twisting around what im debating. that's really low, mate. my setup is nothing special at all. it's actually quite low end, but room treatments have made it sound much - much better. and it was a hell of a lot cheaper than upgrading my amp or speakers or source, etc.... |
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it's relatively straight-forward. no one is trying to sell you on anything or make you buy some ridiculously expensive audiophile shit. that's what is so facepalm about this conversation. |
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elusive, i think you should respect the ways of others, or realize who in here is just a listener, and who is an actual musician. |
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my biggest confusion is why everyone in this thread treats room treatments like an all-or-nothing topic. you either have a bedroom studio with no treatments, or a full blown dedicated studio. what's wrong with putting a pair of panels in the early/first reflection points? why not just try it before writing the idea off? have you tried it on your system yet? even if you dont want to hang bass traps everywhere, putting panels up for absorb mids-highs can do wonders to eliminate comb-filtering. why on earth wouldnt you want to give this a try given its relatively cheap costs with possibility for huge, noticeable gains? |
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Fah, understood. im just a listener, as ive stated time and time again. i just find the stubbornness in this thread on cheap, effective, diy way to make things sound better, mindblowing... it's like a twilight zone episode. and there is some strange misunderstanding here that by adding room treatments to tame peaks and nulls in your room, that suddenly you're trying to make all rooms sound the same (as brisk has stated)..i honestly dont even know how to answer that...the rooms will never sound the same. he seems to think killing off reflections will make the room completely dead. it can if you cover the whole room, but that's absurd. and adding diffusion (part of room treatments) actually makes the room more lively and spreads the sound around. why would you want sound to flow past your ears, hit a flat fall behind you and bounce back towards your speakers like a game of ping-pong? you want the sound to spread around in a random fashion. if a wave leaves the speaker, hits the back wall (flat plane/perpendicular wall) and bounces back, it could become in phase with the wave (create a resonance/standing wave/peak) or could go out of phase with it and create a null - thus eliminating you from even hearing that frequency. |
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Because loads of us have just a little bit more to do than to be obsessed with how a cupboard traps bass and airco holes ventolins trebles. I personally have nothing against it, if you want proper quality music to listen to i could watch you run around your apartment all day treating up your room, but some of us just have better things to do simply put... Like i said, there are people in here who thought you were going on about how our home made music should sound (which in any way you have no right to tell one about), and it's all quite a big misunderstanding. And for the people who did get the message, it's just a large interesting discussion where in you don't seem to be able to respect another's opinion. We just have shit to do mate, we can't all have our heads in the bass traps. No harm done. |
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That was a reply to your previous comment btw... |
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so then why the fuck are you reading this thread and arguing with me, if you dont have time to be bothered with this stuff? "Like i said, there are people in here who thought you were going on about how our home made music should sound (which in any way you have no right to tell one about), and it's all quite a big misunderstanding. And for the people who did get the message, it's just a large interesting discussion where in you don't seem to be able to respect another's opinion. " yes - it was a big misunderstanding. if you can quote me where i specifically stated everyone should be recording their music in this fashion, or like this , etc... please do ... i even stated the flaws in a room for recording sounds is great - referencing afx's bank vault as an example and a joke. how am i not respecting others opinions? facts are not opinions - they're facts. a -20dB null is not an opinion. it's a fact. it's measurable and it's there. i have nulls and peaks im trying to tame with room treatment because they are annoying and noticeable and overwhelming. what opinions specifically am i not respecting? can you please quote me because im having trouble. i cant recall telling anyone how their recording/mixing/etc should sound. if that person really enjoys not hearing enter freq ranges due to cancellations/comb filtering/etc, so be it. stirring up discussion on advanced topics used to be cool. now everyone wants to take the lazy way out and say "my setup is good enough - i dont need to make anything better" ... do as you wish, but dont come here argueing that room treatments are ineffective. because that's flat out false. |
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if you feel you dont need room treatments, no one is shoving them down your throat. but im sure as shit not going to accept that fact that they wont make your room sound better. because that is something that can be measured before and after for comparison. physics is not an opinion. |
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"Because loads of us have just a little bit more to do than to be obsessed with how a cupboard traps bass and airco holes ventolins trebles." that's what's funny, also...you polar-extreme types - like making acoustic panels is fucking rocket science and requires a phD! |
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mis-typed: "but im sure as shit not going to accept that fact that they wont make your room sound flatter. because that is something that can be measured before and after for comparison. " |
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best i can explain it, the perceived increase in quality in adding 2" acoustic panels at early/first reflection points listening to flac, was about the same as going from 256k mp3 to flac. the high freq stuff, symbols, high hats/whatever they're called...all came alive after adding panels and killing off first reflections/comb filtering. that is probably my biggest eye opener when i played gx1 solo. take away the panels and there is less clarity. the big problem i have is my speakers are on my computer desk right now ... so im getting early reflections off my desk which also cause comb filtering. and i still have some bass resonates that are building up under my desk. ive stuffed a 24x24"x4" bass trap under there, but i need a lot more to cure that. the vibrations are killing me. wish i could get my speakers on stands/properly decouple them from my desk...but im hurting for space in that area. |
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are you tired of -20db nulls? can't stand those overwhelming peaks? well now there's Room Treatments! with Room Treatments you'll never have to deal with nasty annoyances again. and you'll be hearing unprecedented levels of crispness in your analords in no time! and who doesn't want that? it's simple and doesn't require a phD! and it's cheaper than upgrading your amps. "why on earth wouldnt you want to give this a try given its relatively cheap costs with possibility for huge, noticeable gains?" - president of Room Treatments Room Treatments brought to you by elusive |
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holy fuck where were you 100 posts ago would have saved me so much time and energy |
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I'm just curious, I use the HD650, what's the (most notable) difference between them and the HD800? |
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Extremely rich mid-range, which is quite simply perfect for my ears. Compared to the 650, the 800 has a much brighter high end and the detail is quite incredible... BUT I was used to the 650's "veiled" high end and it took my ears a long time to adjust to it. My amp smooths it out a little, but I also shave a few dbs off the 14khz+ range, simply because I prefer the warmer sound. As for bass, the HD800 is really tight, controlled and smooth, but some people find it a little underwhelming initially, especially when their ears are used to boomier headphones (and this includes the 650 too). Again, a good amp and a little EQ between 50-90hz makes them perfect for my ears. Soundstage is incredible and listening to classical material in particular was as close to "live" sounding as i've heard from headphones. The instrument seperation is just unmatched for my ears. So yeah, they're super :) |
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I should also add they're the most comfortable headphones i've used, including the 650 (which are also excellent). I can literally wear them all day. I still love the 650s as I find them very musical and they seem to make all recordings sound quite lovely when listening. The 800s are so detailed that they will easilly unmask shit recordings, which is both a good thing and a bad thing. If your music is produced and mastered very well, then the 800s will quite literally shine. Only high end stax phones can compare imo. |
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