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thanks go to brisk for this. |
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ag ag ag ag ag ©popeye implants! |
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RussellDust you seems to know your shit pretty well |
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Well I dunno about you but I think most people enjoy a bit more advanced living than just eating and fucking and sleeping. We use our intelligence to grasp more "dimensions" of reality, more possibilities. And in many ways I see this as the natural state of humans since nature made us this way. In fact, "nature" or shall I say, the physical reality as a whole, created us this way. And it also created itself in this way. There are a lot of things to discover with the intellect. A lot of ideas, points of views, and a diversity of living results from that. When you think about it, all the things we have created, are really created by the mind. Everything from a car, to a spoon to a computer to a website. Don't you think this capacity is something to embrace? When we have this capacity that animals don't, why would we live as animals then? We are creators basically, no other animal is. |
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"Dimensions of reality?" what's that mean? It's a very good example of the intellect wandering off into fantasy land. Of course I already said that thought cannot be abolished, as ug said, there is no way out, we're stuck with it. I also said thought has its uses, which you must have forgot to read. The problem is our application of thought. When you seek to get what does not exist: god, bliss, love, karma, self-awareness, enlightenment, happiness, etc. using thought, you only succeed in pitting one thought against another and creating conflict and misery for yourself and the world. That's what has to come to an end, otherwise we'll destroy ourselves eventually. |
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i got my ug fix by listening to simon & garfunkel. get the 'sounds of silence' LP down you, it's perfect. |
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lol, what I meant was that there exists """"DIMENSIONS"""" or shall I say aspects that can be withdrawn from situations by the intellect that cannot be seen physically or directly. If we take up all the stuff which is just in our minds, compared to the stuff which is actually existing out there as atoms and particles, you find most of it is in our minds. Those are """""""""""""""""""DIMENSIONS"""""""""""""""""" dimension meaning a facet of reality. Also, I think you have it backwards. Without bliss, love, self-awareness and happiness we would be nothing. We would be below animals, just staring into the sky wondering wtf is happening. You say thought can't be abolished, as if that means anything. Thought was a part of us and has been for millions of years, and like I said earlier even before we were primates we probably had some form of thought. Abstract thought must have come before language was developed.. I think in the end you just hate language. You feel that once a word is manifested, it takes away what our initial feeling would be, and we focus on the word rather than the instinct. Well bro, I disagree. I know that if I burn my hand on the oven, it still hurts just as much with or without language. I know that love feels just as good with or without the word. Nobody said language was written in stone. It's a general reference for communicating deeper emotions. We only know what love or pain is because we've experienced it ourselves, and the word doesn't deduce anything from the experience. It's only a communications device. |
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you mention 'bliss, love, self-awareness and happiness'. they are social conditions. and youre right: without social condition, a person becomes 'nothing' - at least, nothing that can be described in social terms. if you read it that way, then what you are proposing is in fact backwards. a person does not become 'nothing' in the absence of social conditions. on the other hand, the body - a vessel for social conditions - exists before it is impressed with social norms. all the rest of what you are proposing represents convoluted social conditioning. even when you refer to 'dimensions' - that is almost like saying - "i cant find this thing, and i have no proof that it exists: but because i suppose that it must exist, then it must be locked away somewhere in this dark cupboard with a post-it note on front reading 'another dimension'" we have had serious people talk about a 'sub-conscious' - that idea is based on the same premise. |
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You said it, "Without bliss, love, self-awareness and happiness we would be nothing." But that's the whole point, you are nothing. Why can't we accept that as reality, not a concept. The "I", the "self" does not even exist, it is merely a jumble of thoughts and ideas - it is never grounded in truth. You are already self-aware - there is no higher state to achieve. Chasing pleasure merely creates the opposite, pain - the more you chase the permanency of pleasure the worse the pain will be when you inevitably fail. Same for bliss, which is merely a concept, a self-induced state of mind. Pain is a reality, love is what? Physical pain is fixed, love is not the same and has never been substantiated - love could merely be strong desire, the overloading of pleasure - a trick of the mind as your pleasures, wants and desires change daily. What you call love usually ends up in psychological pain when you don't get what you want. Again, this is part of your chase for pleasure, happiness, permanency - if you don't understand it or give it its rightful place it causes permanency alright, pemanent misery. Obviously thought is required to develop language. As you quite rightly say, the minute a word is introduced it frames what you are saying and inevitably distorts whatever you are talking about, as it's context is applied through the limited prism of your knowledge. All knowledge is limited. I don't hate language, that would be ridiculous. Again, it's nothing to do with the tools we use to express ourselves and a lot more to do with how they are applied. |
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Certainly those things must be deeper rooted than social conditioning? First off, this kind of goes deeper than youd think. Who knows in what ways the brain could develop? A lot of it depends on the environment, and how we are conditioned sure, but some things are just "true" by default. Love, bliss, happiness, pain are more fundamental. We may feel them because of socially conditioned things, but they are fundamentally built into us pre-social stuff. I like to think of like this: Fundamental things like pain, love, etc is the hardware, and social conditioning like the intellectual ideas we put on top of them is the software. I don't believe those fundamental feelings would be any different in another universe, they would only have different words, values and meanings, the "software." |
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where else could it have come from? physioloigcally, the body functions to survive and reproduce. everything else is a social embellishment. those things are so well established now that we confuse them for a higher purpose or a spiritual capacity - indeed, something separating us from every other living thing. it strikes me as an egotistical notion. its threatening to have these 'pillars of humanity' undermined, but for me, once you see them for what they are, life becomes a lot let stressful, more honest, and you can begin to work toward a rejection of all the other harmful social practises that come along like excess baggage. |
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You're the one trying to apply more to the "I", not me. I agree that the I is a collection of ideas and abstractions, and I don't understand why that is a problem. I do not agree that there isn't more self-awareness to be had though. Self awareness was built into us as a consequence of us being able to distuingish oursleves as a separate entity in the world, without the language. Modern humans just have a very high resolution filter that applies to all sorts of stuff. Self-awareness is like a constant engine, analyzing and comparing the external and internal, and creating new neural net connections, new meanings and ideas. This is why we have the capacity to create, and why we are constantly trying to improve things. I'm not sure what you mean "inevitably fail" because all the time people succeed in their goals. Life is all about goals. I guess you don't think it should be. Even in your animal type world we would eat when hungry, piss when we have to, all in the name of "pressure/release" just the same as any higher intellectual goals. If you have a better way to apply these tools, please explain how. |
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But what about the brain and consciousness? Did social conditioning come before or after the creation of the brain and or intelligence? The brain must have had it built in before we started the social thing. |
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I hate when barcode always says "the I, self, ego is just thoughts, you are nothing." if we are prisoners of our thoughts and ideas, that what does 'nothing' have to do with anything? 'Nothing' is word that signifies that something has no substance. But we are beings, 'things' that are alive and functioning. I think you have confused means of communication and the actual facts that are physically apparent as one in the same. If you take away language and communication, what are we? we are definitely something, maybe that statement doesn't mean anything, maybe the whole thought of anhything meaning anything is just a human creation, but that only proves that our instinctual need to survive and classify other things as separate is more useful to us than the obvious constant persistence of what we experience when we are awake/alive. |
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Orwell wrote an article titled "Politics and the English Language". in it, he described the 'decline of written english': where writings are overdone to the point where meaningless clause after meaningless clause are added to sentences, dancing around an argument without contributing to its point. funnily enough, that's how a lot of philosophy reads. it's also a good analogy of how people like to (or are raised to) view themselves. |
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Actually that's a load of horseshit. I had plenty of points in a concise manner. If you want to straw man because you don't have an argument then I won't reply to you.. |
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most people want to sound clear and sum up words with more convoluted ones. It's the person reading the material who percieves it as overdone or unnecessary. |
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i doubt that i know anything more about the creation of the brain than you do. we don't, however, even need Darwin's help to ask about the evolution of social conditioning. all of our ideas have been a long work in progress. if you entertain that idea, then its safe to suggest that social groups formed out of necessity - for survival. what was acceptable behaviour in the group - the social norms - developed in turn. jump forward a thousand or a thousand million years later and you have a very complicated, interrelated system. this argument works in the small, immediate scale as well. i quickly learned how to behave in class at age 6, and i just as quickly learned how to keep a job. it sounds simple beacuse it is. |
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over-embellishment doesnt make someone sound clear, though. more often than not they sound like a academic snob. why say in 25 words what can be said in 5? i think that any good teacher, or any kind of speaker, can be understood in layman's terms. |
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I'm not even sure what the argument is anymore. I'm not denying social conditioning, I'm merely trying to say that the way the brain evolved, and humanity as a whole, was a natural process, and that the finer details of this evolution can be scrutinized, they are not completely open, they are up for discussion. One of my major points in the thread was that thought and intellect may have existed in very basic form ever since the beginning, and that this complex internal/external system is a completely natural state for any animal. Why or how humans developed more intellect is up for review, but I guess I just fundamentally disagree with Barcode. Even if we have created everything through our intellect and social conditioning, it doesn't negate our primal needs, nor does it make the intellect useless. Humans very much still live on primal instincts, ranging from violent acts to sexual behavior to even just eating. But right now, I can't type or think about this anymore for today so I'm signing out. |
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i wasn't replying to you there. |
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i was arguing that there is nothing fundamental about your set of 'fundamental tools' - the 'bliss, love, self-awareness and happiness ... and etc'. that is because, in my view, they are examples of learned behaviour, and there is nothing biologically intrinsic about them. i routinely argue against fundamentals and absolutes when arguments are based on them. it causes all sorts of problems. |
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cx, to cover some of your points: Self-awareness comes about through thought. Like it or not, that's inevitable - but anything you superimpose on top of that is meaningless. Knowing and understanding you exist is one thing, but why the need to pretend there are additional layers above that? When I say "inevitably" fail, I think it's pretty obvious that the human species has on several occasions come within the press of a button from virtual extinction. As technology becomes cheaper and more efficient, the danger of that is only heightened. I also disagree with your premise that the human species is continuing to evolve. It's not, it's barbaric, and it cannot evolve using thought the way it does. You might be nice and comfy playing your Aphex CDs and xBox, and with a bit of luck you'll live a long and healthy life until your pop your clogs of old age, but for millions life is war, starvation, disease, misery for billions, and there is something like 35 wars going on all around the world as we speak. The human race has advanced technologically, because that's what thought has been marvellous at - technological progress through trial and error. Although it's also been used for horrific death and destruction, because in the psychological field, we've barely moved an inch. World War II - the murder of 60 million of our own species for an intellectual idea, was only 60 years ago, and homo sapiens have been around for 100,000 years. So it's preposterous to assume tangible progress has been made, unles you find that acceptable. |
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"I hate when barcode always says "the I, self, ego is just thoughts, you are nothing." I hate it to, but thankfully I can slip back into the dreamworld and pretend there is meaning, or find a level of equilibrium. Remember, there is no way out, it's how you deal with it armed with the knowledge you are nothing, you have no importance, your life is meaningless over above what nature intended. We are physical things, that's all - just objects that nature decries should procreate then reassimilate itself into the environment. If you take away language and communication, we are the same as all the other animals, even if you don't take it away we are the same, as everything thought brings about is phoney. You see, nature doesn't care about human thought, the body doesn't even care. I think a good analogy is crying. Few, if any, animals cry in the way humans do. I'm pretty sure crying is merely a build up of stress in the body, the body is just getting rid of that unwante stress, it cannot differentiate whether they are tears of joy, sadness, euphoria, pain, it's all the same to the body - just stress it has to get rid of. |
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Don't forget that animals share some of the same emotions as humans |
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To be yourself requires extraordinary intelligence. You are blessed with that intelligence; nobody need give it to you; nobody can take it away from you. He who lets that express itself in its own way is a 'Natural Man'. There is no such thing as your mind or my mind. May be there is such a thing as the "world mind" where all the cumulative knowledge and the experiences thereof are accumulated and passed on from generation to generation. To be yourself is very easy, you don't have to do a thing. No effort is necessary. You don't have to exercise your will, you don't have to do anything to be yourself. But to be something other than what you are, you have to do a lot of things. A 'moral man' is a frightened man- chicken hearted man; that is why he practices morality and sits in judgement over others. Thought can never capture the movement of life, it is much too slow. It is like lightning and thunder. They occur simultaneously, but sound, travelling slower than light, reaches you later, creating the illusion of two separate events. |
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True, but very very few and those emotions are exhibited in a more instinctive way, not brought on by meaningless self-induced mental torture. |
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Who could not be super-impressed by such wisdom? |
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I don't think you can ever learn an emotion. All emotions must by default be hardcoded into the physiology and body. Including happiness, self awareness and bliss. @ barcode I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. What I would argue against though is how you imply that thought is the fault for this. I don't think it is. If anything, wars and inequality has its roots in the more fundamental animal behavior of humans. Things like selfishness, greed, anger and such are the culprits here. Our advanced thoughts just allow us to do it on a much grander scale because of technology and organization of military. It would still be the exact same problems if we didn't have thought. In nature there would be inequality all the time. We would steal and murder then as well as now. I would propose that in order to change human behavior thought is essential, otherwise we would have no self control over our impulses. |
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"i think that any good teacher, or any kind of speaker, can be understood in layman's terms" I agree. Someone being too complicated when explaining something tends to be unware he/she is failing (to put his/her message across) |
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jesus christ i can barely recognize you :) |
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lololol |
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VRRRRRRRRÔÔÔÔÔÔÔÔÔÔÔAAAaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrr |
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i would say that our physiology produces pain, pleasure, fear, sexual attraction, and bonding between parents and children - that is, all of the functions that are instrumental in our survival. in that sense, we are no different to any other member of the animal kingdom. through ongoing social contact, we have elaborated these basic functions into virtues and spiritual icons. we aspire to 'higher' states, such as the happiness, the bliss, the pride, the ambiton and so on (even, some would argue, love). we have developed an aversion to opposing elaborations, such as boredom, shame, dullness and discontent. in fact, there is no 'higher' or 'lower' pleasure - except within the framework of social norms. many of the emotions we view as being innate are in fact overcooked rules designed to guide our natural functions. |
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to relinquish our ideas of the importance of emotion is an ideal that we should bare in mind (in a theoretical sense) but its not really us. the properties of our emotions and feelings are as physical and 'real' as anything else. in the same way that the nature of water is to fill a cup, our brains will feel a moment. we are never going to not feel, and water is never going to defy physics. with that in mind i do not think we should aim to be higher than our feelings, but feel them and face it all the time. meet every feeling face to face, do not try and become more than human. if we can be weighted with the 'importance' of every kind of hurt and joy and still remain standing then we are doing ok. If we help others to stand with us then even better. You cannot blame us for making life so important. it hurts/shines like a motherfucker |
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Hegel ,Kierkegaard, Descartes, Barcode |
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the best thing to remember is that pain is temporary and is sometimes a blessing - the intensity of emotions such as anxiety/fear are made possible by millions of years of work, and so much sustains it, no matter how distressed we are it's just ripples on the surface of something bigger , a ridiculously vast ocean of possibility and potential. UG is right when he says pain and pleasure are the same thing because they are just insignificicant, temporary movements of thought |
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You need to stop wanking over what you read, fancy pants. (you keep fucking saying) "As UG would say..." ...well he'd say you're a fucking pussy, that's what. Stop talking in quotes. And when you do quote, fucking let it known. My problem with you, mate, is that you talk about the exterior. If you were to be true to what you apparently think, you'd be so depressed you'd be posting permanently from your duvet. Some of the stuff you say, it's just you showing us what impresses you, it's hardly ever an opinion. |
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i dont want to put words in your mouth, but from my point of view all of that goes for barcode too. (cygnus seems an alright guy tho) |
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Barcode bites and i don't want to catch anything! I was going to say he has more balls. But then he's a dupe isn't he? |
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can you chill out? I'm just referencing UG. The reason I'm into his stuff is because I agree with it. You don't see my quoting Byron Katie or Tammy Faye Baker do you? If you were to be true to what you apparently think, you'd be so depressed you'd be posting permanently from your duvet. Some of the stuff you say, it's just you showing us what impresses you, it's hardly ever an opinion. didn't know you were a mind reader/psychic. please tell me what barcode and ampi max are thinking too? |
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"didn't know you were a mind reader/psychic." No problem. |
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Look at Ampi, trying to shaft me when I disappear from the thread after a few days. lol Lay off cygnus. What's he done wrong? Wants to quote ug let him. my first post in this thread was a list of ug quotes so why not burn me too. I aint no dupe. This crummy joint isnt worth duping for. It's a dumbass place with dumbass comments, and you can include mine in that. Besides, if anyone wanted to ban me from xlt, I'd wholeheartedly accept it. I'd never come back, you have my word. I find it easy to forget about things and places in life - give it a few weeks and it's like I was never there, never existed. |
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this thread is boring, and ultimately redundant. this ug guy has nothing new to say. what needed to be said was said more than 100 years ago by nietzsche. |
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well said |
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don't forget kids. whatever is needed to be said can be found on wikipedia. |
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in this case, yes. |
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You people take this shit too seriously. this thread wasn't supposed to solve the riddle to life DAMN. |
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Krishnamurti is a crank. It's telling which people on here subscribe to his juvenile outlook. |
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