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...don't half get on my tits. Yes, the man is a child-killing fuckwit with the intellectual prowess of a root vegetable. We know this. You don't need to keep on mentioning it in every fucking song. Seriously, it comes across as if you've signed up to his "if you're not with us you're against us" way of thinking and must voice your displeasure with him frequently, or else people might think you support him. Thank God for instrumental music. "Lolzorz, but Ceri, they're just talking about things that are important to them." Yes, sure, they aren't just jumping on (an already extremely tedious) bandwagon. Mocking Bush is about as hard as giving a paralytic a good kicking. It's not difficult and it's not something to be proud of. |
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i thought this was gonna be about bang bus |
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To get on topic, I agree, however it does take talent to write a political song that isn't just preaching to the choir though. and i reckon it is possible. |
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Yes. You can cleverly and subtley voice your political concerns without shouting "Bush is a prick" 4 times as your chorus line. Take something like Nena's 99 Red Balloons. A great pop song, catchy and with a message. Not a cringe-inducing protest song. Lets be frank, not many lifelong Bush supporters are going to buy or listen to someone slating Bush and should they hear it at a party or on the radio, it's unlikely they'll suddenly say, "You know what? I was wrong, the man is a fool..." |
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why would anyone want to subtly voice political concerns, though? I agree that it's bad that artists keep doing it (but for other reasons than yours.. I'll probably get to it), but I'm also quite opposed to the notion of "discussing" things through "art" when the discussion or opinion isn't crystal clear (meaning that it is actually written in plain text somewhere on the piece of art); ambiguity isn't your friend in political debate or critique. The reason why I don't like it when certain artists voice their opinions in a song is that they quite often can actually devalue an opinion by doing so; I'm often inclined to think that anything Bono does, for instance, is a lump of wank even though I may some times agree with his views. It's also the fact that if you do it, like some random punk band, with "humour," you end up just making "fun" of the whole thing. The main point is that there are proper channels for political debate and critique, and popular music isn't one of them due to the heavy focus on the person over the opinion. |
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...although, I suppose you could argue that seeing as most teenage girls seem to form their political opinions solely on whatever Bono says, it's a good tool for getting (dim) "floating voters" to your side. |
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it'll ruin it even for them; don't you think many of your adolescent views were a bit too simple, etc? that's because of bono. |
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it's art. if done well it can be powerful. but, it can also be incredibly embarrassingly bad. most over the top political sap falls into the later category. |
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art only ever inspires debate about the status and state of art, not politics. |
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oh dear |
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its just another tired idea thats been done to death. preaching to the converted. anyone who gets it has already got it and anyone who dont wont. |
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hey you guys, or jeri cc. any specific songs out there you might be referring to? i'd love to hear this 'bush is a prick' song. it would undoubtably inspire a chuckle. |
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I honestly can't think of any songs that you'rre talking about. |
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Lucky forr me I guess. |
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haha, same here. |
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why would anyone want to subtly voice political concerns, though? I agree that it's bad that artists keep doing it (but for other reasons than yours.. I'll probably get to it), but I'm also quite opposed to the notion of "discussing" things through "art" when the discussion or opinion isn't crystal clear (meaning that it is actually written in plain text somewhere on the piece of art); ambiguity isn't your friend in political debate or critique. I disagrree with that almost 100%, but I won't get into. |
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Yes!!!! |
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Fully agreed. Although I have a general distaste for political music/bands in general. It's the wrong venue for that type of expression, in my opinion. Crooning about political problems in a song never really changes anything.. it's just a way for bands to be able to tell themselves they're doing something 'good' for society. So maybe the collective effect of the youth of America listening to that music is shaping their future beliefs? Maybe.. on some level, but I don't think that's what the bands who make this kind of music have in mind.. and big political decisions are not going to be determined by 300 shitty punk bands rocking against Bush or any other ultimately hopeless cause. |
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lets talk about green day's 'american idiot'. sincere or not? too commercial to be taken seriously or not? I like the song and i think they mean well. google ad 'the white house mafia' :D |
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There is a place for music with a political message, though. Its just that there are so many posery bands who feign such and such a stance, and make the whole notion of writing 'protest songs' seem trashy. I haven't noticed it so much recently though, what sort of bands are you referrin tto Ceri? I guess Thom Yorke etc is very much that way inclined but I think he's a freethinker. |
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why beat around the bush (HA!) if you mean something? art is good, but art is emotion. |
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Of course, Green Day... |
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are you saying art can't carry meaning? i kinda don't even know where to begin disagreeing. |
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it can, but it isn't very good for it unless the meaning is explicit. |
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yeh, there's more consice & exact means to conveying information than say a song or a peice of music.. but, maybe not more powerful.. ..oh hell, i don't know. :) /me quits talking out of his ass |
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it's almost like you're saying art should have no subtext because people are stupid and if you want to make a point you should just shout it. that's pretty much the complete opposite of what art is meant to be, to me anyway.. it's meant to inspire thought on the part of the spectator, and be open to interpretation. |
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href="http://www.terra.es/personal/asg00003/picasso/grguer2 art only ever inspires debate about the status and state of art, not politics. -- Prof. Drunken Mastah |
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jesus christ, somebody please fucking fix this messageboard. |
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well, yes, some pieces, obviously, but these are always more explicit and nearing on the less ambiguous character of normal language (though language in no way is unambiguous) and similar impact could just as easily (or maybe even more easily) have been created through normal channels. |
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why would the artist who is concerned with these matters think like that? "Oh, i'll leave it to the writers, newspaper editors and philosophers, they'll deal with it better and make a bigger or equal impact, and i can just paint some still life or something nice like that." |
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the power of art fades away in the fact that it is mostly more ambiguous than what is desireable when criticising something. people need to be more straight forward about what they mean, but that doesn't mean art should be more straight forward; I like the ambiguity in it, but it isn't purposeful for conveying specific meaning. |
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the artist can make whatever he wants to make as long as he doesn't pretend everyone will have the same interpretation of it unless he makes it explicit. |
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drunken mastah lays down the rules, love it |
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Extract from the forthcoming book "Barking up the wrong garden path: In conversation with dog_belch" Interviewer: You've often stated that you feel mired in depression, find little joy in contemporary culture, and regard most things as rubbish. How do you find the strength to carry on, what's left to motivate you? dog_belch: Everytime I feel I've reached the very bottom, that things can't get any worse or duller, I remind myself I am not one of drunken_mastah's longwinded opinions. |
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I don't care whatever senseless affection people seem to have towards art; it is a good thing, sure, but not a proper arena for actual critique of anything unless it is explicit; if you mean something you should just say it straight out. hang on I'll paint a picture to illustrate what I mean. |
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If a picture paints only a thousand words, at least it'd shut you up a bit. |
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Well, sure it is. You have to differentiate from literary and abstract art though. They are both art. |
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i don't think anyone here is proposing that official treatise or legal documents should be painted by pointilists or sung in opera houses.. |
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enemies deserve special subdivisions of time. you should vituperate against them as frequently as possible even if it means retrospective introtemporality. |
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I'd never create art intending to say anything; I just create what I feel like and say what I think. however, you may have pointed out an analogy to the problem; if there are a thousand likely interpretations of an object within the same setting, that is hardly purposeful for communication, now, is it? |
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sure, but embedding meaning in a song or a picture is still a more roundabout way and thus not very purposeful (what's the short word for that again? unpurposeful?). |
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hehe, actually that'd be pretty awesome if like, you had to get your land surveyed for tax purposes, so you go down to the court house and have your deed sung to you by a big fatass opera singer lady with a leather horned viking cap on. |
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This is getting increasingly ambiguous, partially because we are jumping around a continuum. From: Information--------------------------------------Art Most art and most information falls somewhere in between these. Its just, at what point do you say "This is ART!" |
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no, of course not, but if people can't even read what I'm saying here, imagine what it'd be like if I made a painting to illustrate it with even more ambiguity than normal words. I've been trying to say that art is not a very good way of expressing specific meaning unless you are very explicit, and sometimes even being explicit, like when the artist says what the painting is about in an interview, it is in fact not the painting conveying the meaning, but the artist actually saying straight out what he means which he could've just done from the start. I'm not saying artistic output can't or shouldn't be inspired by meanings, but: it's not very purposeful and not something desireable in proper debate. people are being silly with their roundabout ways. |
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"but: it's not very purposeful and not something desireable in proper debate. people are being silly with their roundabout ways. " Is that a poem? |
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well.. I don't think one solid definition will ever hold for when you say "this is art!" (people would always disagree) but we all have rather vague conceptions of it which we are able to apply when deciding that what we are looking at is art. in this case, though, the main point is opinions and how to best convey them. art is not a good way of conveying them and unless you're explicit about it, I'd even say it's pretty pointless to even try. |
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as I just said you know the difference before even asking the question, but we wouldn't want to ever set the limit as being there. |
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I just can think of so many things that I think are huge breaches of the boundary between opinion and art that I consider to be great. What about the Sistine Chapel? Diego Rivera's Crossroads? Animal Farm? I can't imagine that you would discredit these, if you do, I can understand, but if not, then what is the point of separating art and opinion if the art is all that matters in the end or can overshadow the opinion. I feel like I am missing one of your points though or getting ahead of myself or something. : / |
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well, yes, people are kind of misunderstanding me here even though I've written time and time again that art isn't purposeful for expressing opinions, it's just a bad roundabout way of going about it. even animal farm with its rather clear allegories isn't clear enough to be a purposeful means of expressing the views one can interpret it as expressing. I'm not too familiar with the other two unless the sistine is a misspelling of sixtine (I don't know, it could be some later piece of art attempting to criticise something). |
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yeah, i am definitely misunderstanding the point you're debating. it kinda seems like you're setting up a straw man argument and debunking a point that isn't being made. |
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