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me spimed abute a new avator so me spammsess abute a new topic.... i figure there is an often blurred line between the two.. nihilism seems to be the belief of nothing so i guess a true nihilist who happen to beleive in nothing even themselves which could, I suppose, lead themselves to being a rotten corpse sashed in a pool of their own vomits under a row of urinals in a public restroom correct me, please, if i;m wrong... detachment seems to be the idea that the physical world itself is an illusion; so sentimentally i dare say that this internet thing is a massive construct of our cellective conciousness of reality... ugg this is not sounding the way i wanted if you practice either or have a comment tell us |
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nihilism is a beliefe detachment is an attitude, something occuring. nihilism doesn't happen, it exists. detachment does happen, and is often the result of nihilism |
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who is the us you refer to in "tell us"? |
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someone has to have something to add to this very interesting thread |
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i believe that i exist and the world exists, i just think everybody overrates themselves and their place in the world, people seem to creates and warp their view of reality to fit what they want (not that i'm immune from that tendency, but i try to step back very once in a while). so i do seem detached from the world in a way, but that is an illusion... conversation tends to seem so fake to me, its either banal (to avoid thinking or approching subjects) or just a game of lying or implying things that seems like a lie to me, just a bunch of posturing and pretending, .... so am i "nihilistic"... i am very detached, but then i still share universal experience of human existance... what the fuck... fuck everything... i dont care anyway... |
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well i don't feel that people can take credit or responsibility for what they think, who they are etc., as we are products of society and circumstances. Therefore what i think and what others think means nothing whatsoever |
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by us i figured there was more than just myself curious about the subject i think detachment has something to do with finding the space below/beyond what is in front of us so could we truly do such a thing without first understanding our surroundings? i mean you can;t just say fuck it and ignore everything, that;s destructive but me supposes that loving everything isn;t no piece od cake niether |
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no one is ever truly unattached from society as the marks and influences that society makes can never be truly erased. As one choosing to be unattached to society, or saying fuck everything, comes from societies influences to begin with. |
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okay... i care that i wish that i had a really good reason to care... i wish i could... ... and i've figured out my major dysfucktion... i can't or won't create a reality view that is in sync with others... nor is my personality strong enough or confident enough or willing to force my view of reality on others... so i'm in sort of a detached limbo... i can try to be as invisible as possible... or assert myself into others reality by killing them to show myself that i do exist... i don't like blood thou..... actually all relationships are about using somebody or being used by somebody... i'm not very good at using and being used under the normal rationaliztions, so i'm "detached" from the system... well, now i've figured it out, i just hope i die soon, i'm getting sick of waiting.... |
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hmmm.... it would seem middle is the path like water or a chameleon |
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bump.... |
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I really cant express how happy i am to see this excellent topic amongs so much bull! Personally, i think detachment is the way to go, and yes, i´ve been practising it for some years now. Nihilism bites itself in the tail you see. If you are a nihilist, you BELIVE! in nihilism! A true nihilist, does not know he is it! and he would be enlightened i guess! Detachment is wery healthy, because it makes you happy. Remember, detachment, is not saying no if someone offers you a car. detachment is not feeling anything, when the car is taken away from you again. What made you ax such an intelligent question? Please mail me, Ãf you want to hear some more about my wiew of the world.=) Zen story about detachment. A Zen Master lived the simplest kind of life in a little hut at the foot of a mountain. One evening, while he was away, a thief sneaked into the hut only to find there was nothing in it to steal. The Zen Master returned and found him. "You have come a long way to visit me," he told the prowler, "and you should not return empty handed. Please take my clothes as a gift." The thief was bewildered, but he took the clothes and ran away. The Master sat naked, watching the moon. "Poor fellow," he mused, " I wish I could give him this beautiful moon." =) |
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I think you some issues confused in regards to nihilism and detachment Dirty Priest. The philosophy of nihilism doesn't mean that you don't believe in anything, but rather it means that one doesn't believe in anything that calls upon faith, nor does one believe that there is any final purpose in life. Nihilism wouldn't still be around, or discussed by so many great thinkers if it could be proven wrong by just saying if you believe in nihilism, you're not a true nihilist. |
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I have practiced zen for quite some time now, and I think alluding it to detachment from society isn't the right notion. one involved and practicing zen isn't detached from society at all, they can still be quite active in society. However, they're not detached but more unconcerned and unbiased to the views held by society. |
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interesting stuff... great thread! zen storm, i agree w/ everything uve said.. i guess i practice nihilsm..... seeing as how i dont believe in the world, myself, life, etc..... well, i just try not to believe in general good point, too, on how we are nothing more than the products of society and our enviroment but i never knew what 'nihilsm' was until just now can u recommend any reading on the subject? where do i start? thanks.. |
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A common misoncception is the nihilism is "believing in nothing", while it is not truly this. A nihilist only believes what is front of them, what is solid, and can be proven. This is why nihilism clashes with many religions so hard, as religion dominantly relies on "faith" as proof; something a nihilist rejects. While much of philosophiy can not be proven, and relies on logic and thinking as it's proof, these are also rejected by the nihilist, which doesn't leave much to believe besides what is here and now. This is why many people assume that the nihilist believes in nothing. Here is a helpful link if you wish to know more in detail: www.counterorder.com |
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Another philosophy I find quite interesting is absurdism, which is closely tied with the existential school of thought. Absurdism discusses the nature of life, a life that has no purpose or pre-determined meaning. People are just randomly placed in and out of life, with no specific relation to time, just thrown into the mix. |
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"A nihilist only believes what is front of them, what is solid, and can be proven. " ...but nothing can be proven believing in ANYTHING requires at least SOME faith... ...cus we dont truely experience anything purely directly..... .....know what i mean? |
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Not really, since right now I know that I am typing on the computer, I know I am listening to my music etc. Nihilist, not that I am one, are limited to very factual and only tangible realities, things that don't requie feelings, or thinking. this is of course assuming that the arguments that life could just be a dream etc. do not apply. |
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Nihilism is against things that require rationalization, thought, faith etc. Christianity calls upon faith to explain miracles. But me believing in my ability to open a box requires no faith, as it is based on experience; something that doesn't use faith. |
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"this is of course assuming that the arguments that life could just be a dream etc. do not apply. " well thats the thing: who knows? these things MIGHT apply what u THINK u experience for real (u typing at ur computer)..... is just ur brain making sense out of a bunch of nerve signals.... (seeing the computer, feeling the keyboard, etc). but these signals do not originalte in the keyboard and go directly to ur brain pressure turns into electrical impulses, light bounces throug air.... etc i just mean that nothing is DIRECT plus, by the time these signals reach you, they mean nothing on their own... only in ur brian do u interpret them as a computer, and u typing on it so computers only exist in YOUR ideas of them.. ..know what i mean? so everything only exists as ur brain can percieve it accepting anything as fact takes faith.. so, since u cant be ABSOLUTELY sure of anything... so believing in anything, no matter how apparently obvious it is, is still an irrational belief in itself... who knows, u could be in a holodeck in star treck or something ;) i mean: people who are devote religiously just KNOW that there is a god they FEEL him, they think they can sense him dircetly just as u are sure that u know ur computer |
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As I mentioned before, I am not a nihilist. I am giving you what i understand to be their view. This is what they believe, and a basic assumption amoung all philosophies is that the existence of a reality. You can disprove anything by saying thing's are a dream and what not. I could by the same token just argue that how you understand the brain, something receiving signals, is part of a dream, and it really doesn't work that way. These arguments are similar one uses to explain conspiracies, all you have to say is "well that's part of the conspiracy". This strikes at the heart of nihilism, as they don't believe in things that are merely rationalized, such as your argument about the brain and interpretations. However there is a great deal of evidence that proves that me typing and listening to music is actually occuring. Religions do not explain how miracles exists, or what's behind them, the common explanation is faith. You only "know" something exists because you think it does, or are convinced is does. Just as you mentioned in your reply "they just KNOW", see how there is no explanation, no evidence, "they just KNOW" means that they only know due to faith. |
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its kinda like what the realist painter courbet said..."i dont paint angels because ive never seen one...show me an angel and i will paint it" or something like that.. |
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While my opinion may not be very valid, i just wanted to say how surprised i was to see so many people choose detachment..out of curiousity, do you guys still care much about the people around you that really warrant that care, ie. your true good friends, etc...I do agree with some of the points here though.. |
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i'm just not so understood about how you guys go about in your detachment methods, how it works.. |
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nothing to add (yet) apart from ive enjoyed reading what all of you have typed. Nausea by JP Satre is interesting. |
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i dont think you really can become truley detached ...its kinda like the movie 'its a wonderful life'...your relationship with the world is probably greater than you think ive always though i was pretty detached from everything else...but the more i thought of it, i realised i really wasnt... as long as youre alive, your a part of this world...even if you leave and go out and live in the middle of nowhere...there will still be people in society who at least vaguely remember you...and you will still remember the society you left you would have to die along with everyone who has ever come in contact with you to be truely detached from humanity |
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Ross: detachment doesn't strictly mean that you no longer care about things in your environment, I do not believe that this could ever be accomplished thouroughly. Detachment can be seperating yourself (as best as possible) from society, it's views, and/or influences. This doesn't mean nessecarily that you no longer care about people and what not. |
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thanks wayout and zen storm..zen- i agree that it's a good thing then to detach yourself from societies views and influences, at least to not be duped easily, and be aware of everything.. |
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I just think that we can't take credit for what we think, nor wil we be able to truly detach ourselves from society, but the best we can do is to strive to be as open and unbias as possible |
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which is basically the thoughts of Zen |
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what is faith? is it a lie that people tell themselves... the leap from objective reality to the selfish delusion of the subjective viewpoint... people don't really like the implications of reality so they constantly try to rationize opinions to try to create and reinforce their own view of reality... so am i nihilistic? ... true detachment is impossible unless you are omniscience, or at least completely detached from yourself ... so if one could become perfectly nihilistic, would that make you godlike? or just dead. |
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Not really, if you read the rest of the thread, I discussed the differences between a true nihilist and one who i disattached. A nihilist isn't the same as someone who is unattached to society, I nihilist demands solid proof, and doesn't believe in a destiny or final purpose, where as some unattached doesn't care or isn't involved in it either way. So not godlike, but merely suspicious. |
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very interesting topic!! kudos i agree with AMinal....no one can truly be 'detached' from the world. every decision you make affects yourself and those around you whether you think about them or not. detaching yourself from some things is necessary, personal example: cadavars....when i had to dissect one...after a while i didn't think of it as a human, it was an interesting phenom, never thought i could get past it, but it was SURPRISINGLY easy and very scary at the same time. detaching yourself from feeling things....love...hate...happiness...sadness well that to me is NOT healthy at all. i mean whether you realize it or not you are hurting yourself but not allowing yourself to see both the beauty and ugliness in the world. BOTH are necessary, in order to appreciate ONE, you must be exposed to the other. FOCUSING on one or the other is NOT good either, and i know there is a tendency for people to do it. myself, i tend to see the GOOD in the world, trying to ignore the BAD. i know that is a bit like an ostrich sticking it's head in the sand, believing nothing exists other than what it see's, or chooses to see. but i realize that i was fooling myself, and OPENED my eyes the world. Nihilism....to me seems fruitless....i can't even begin to understand that mindset, but i know i don't wanna be around someone like this....i'd rather wash my hair or something....ehehhehe hope some of this makes sense, it does to me at the moment!! =0) |
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i;m so glad to see this thread taking off i was hoping to work to Old Daddy with it but... i figure detachment has alot to do with smashing the ego, er dissolving it anywayz but understanding ego is a rather insane task itself thinking back to highschool psych and bill & ted;s freud is, me thinx, totally misleading i;ve developped some ideas about reality over the past few years that a reality is a container made of concious energy the smallest being a single person or life form i suppose sensory deprevation does crazy things to you i never watch tv and when i do it feels like i;m getting bludgeoned in the heart television is a strong distraction from any spirituality it epitomizes the idea of a false utopia i think with either, nihilism or detachment, a certain humbleness is learned modesty, i think, is very important and there is far too little in this world everyone always reaching for more but where are we going? |
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i think the only true detachment would be leaving the body for good that;s death at least in most;s mind and you can argue feeling energy is just tricking yourself into releasing endorphines question has anyone hear aver experienced raiki it;s a japanese healing technique i was dating a girl that was into it she totally caught me off gaurd with it it;s totally relaxing and just pushing energy around yeah so detachment LeCoeur i think is not so much for feelings but emotions which are feelings gone unchecked in detachment i;ve always thought you were trying to forget the barrier of the physical world we;re all one and all that that supposedly the physical world is only a mass dellusion sentient minds hmm.......... |
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hummm seems like an impossible scenario...forgetting the barriers with the physical world?? what exactly do you mean? i mean just if you stick with one of the constants in the world...like say GRAVITY, which is impossible to forget...brings you right back down to EARTH.....ehehhe Mass delusion.....that also seems like an impossible view.....i mean how is it possible that some experience the same things and some don't? i mean if it's a mass delusion don't well all have to experience the SAME delusion? OR am i being to literal and not seeing what you mean? |
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the physical world is sort of a mass delusion, but each person has a different delusion, each person as their own viewpoint of what is real, and each individuals reality is different from each other... are view of the world is subjective, because we are trapped in our bodies, our individuality... |
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i agree our view of EVERYTHING is subjective. i mean look how we argue about MUSIC. ehhehe however it doesn't explain how our OWN delusion contains the some of the same people sometimes, and how according to those people their delusion contains US. i guess it can be explained that it's how we explain our own delusion to ourselves? it's an interesting view, however i don't agree with it =0) |
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maybe the literal thing the mass delusion is that there is a physical world at all i guess is what i was trying to say and that would be the same delusion shit, do you listen to tool? the whole shpeal at the beginning of 'third eye' something like matter is only the vibration of life slowed down but all that is way extreme things to truly understand and 'know' so i guess we could settle for an understanding of detachment where as health and conciousness should not be forsaken for posessions why do we go to work? to make money why do we need money? to buy stuphe why do we need to buy stuphe? well food and shelter seem pretty important but an SUV that never goes offroad or a big nice house that has bookshelves filled with never read books as furniture? these things are empty a waste of resources hmm.... i think i trailed from the path i guess i;m confused myself but lets say our earth/gaia, whether physical or not, is our home and the more detached a person is the less damaging actions are comitted did that make any sense? |
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"and the more detached a person is the less damaging actions are comitted" ... actually, wouldn't those who view "nihilism" as a negative thing, say that detachment gives one freedom from morality, from good or bad(which i dont believe really exist except as concepts), and that you could justify anything? Like Camus character in "The Stranger" or Dostoyevsky's killer in "Crime and Punishment"? Thou, to me, the more religious view, the farther from reality, the easier to justify acts that could well be described as "evil". to me, Christianity and Islam are the closest things to there being evil in the world. |
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hehehe i have all of TOOL's CD's and the DVD....ehehhe Third Eye is a favourite of mine, i'll listen to it with these ideas in mind! If it makes sense to you, thats all that matters because everything SUBJECTIVE!! ahahhah btw.....for me this statement you made "and the more detached a person is the less damaging actions are comitted " in my opinion....the more detached the person the more DAMAGE they cause, because they don't acknowledge the fallout from their actions. it seems like a MORE selfish viewpoint from my point of view.....=0) |
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MY POINT EXACTLY......great citations!!! Esp Crime and Punishment.....ehehhe oye......you're in my delusion....GET OUT!! ahahahaa |
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well yeah the crusades were a justified blood bath detachment, i don;t think, is freedom from morality i;m kinda stoned now from some resin hits and the Big Lebowski is on my monitor so i;m having problems concentrating right now but if detachment could possibly be a lack of the physical world affecting you then why would you be free to do evil acts? karma, as a concept, is still valid |
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nihilism, i would think, would be the freedom from morality but ZenStorm has informed us that isn;t what nihilism is about but according to the Nihilist characters in the Big Lebowski which is what my understanding of Nihilism is based on i;m right |
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i wouldn't base your nihilistic beliefs off of the big labowski, but it can be applied in many different ways depending on the person, and what they consider evidence/proof and so on |
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Sorry for misinterpreting nihilism! I still dont like it, because, i believe life DOES have a purpouse! i do not now it, but i just.... i just want to live my life and love it! and you can do that, because you create your own reality!!!! I think you guys (girls?)might want to read "andrew cohen" and Eckhart tolle. They are really interesting, just check them out.! |
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Well as I have said, I am not a nihilist, but rather I enjoy exploring all philosophies. DirtyPriest: you seem to be more of an existentialist, as they believe there is no reality or purpose except for the one each person creates. |
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Nono, actaully, my "hunch", of the purpouse of life is that the part that we as humans are sepperated are an illusion! i think we are all the same thing when it comes down to it. call it "god" i dont care. but i´m not religious! No, i say live the life, because, i dont know what the purpouse is, but i will take this life i have, and use it to the max! because it seems logical! I dont like christianity and buddhism for one thing. I think they are anti Life, like life is just some kind of hell.... i dont agree. but jesus was ok. |
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i guess it just boils down to i wanna be a good person like not all selfless but cause no pain for others or myself i figure as long as my actions don;t result with some form of negetivity i;m doing good hmmm... so what the hell does that have to do with detachment wait... detachment from desire detachment from expectations hmm and nihilism i don;t beleive in desire i don;t believe in expectations eh & heh |
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