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http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2002/042002/04272002 /389998 I read this, and iam absolutly fuckin sickened by some sorts of people, this story just ruined my day. |
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interesting article - pictures coulda been better! |
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That's very upsetting. |
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what does that make you feel sickened? Here's a very interesting and hard to find article in regards to suicide: http://members.tripod.com/~LifeGard/penacide.html |
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Reflex, would you mind telling me what the code is to post active links? |
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Happens all the time. If it ruins your day you must be having lots of bad days... |
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Frankly, the callous nature of the bystanders upsets me more than the suicide itself. |
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"Dunham told other police officers that he was sickened to hear at least a dozen people shout for her to jump as they passed over the bridge." crazy. |
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What would you have done if you were there REFLEX? |
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I don't think that it's really up to anyone to help her choose, whether that be to die or to carry on. It's not anyone's choice but hers, although I do feel people urging her to jump of the bridge is careless and immature. |
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yes, that's what makes it particularly sad. |
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And the fact that they put up those photos is in poor taste. Reminds me of the video footage of the people jumping to their deaths at the WTC. |
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yeah but everythign is exploited these days, not much helping that |
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Damn, you can even click on the pictures for a larger image and email the picture to friends. That's pretty sick. |
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Laserbeak: I think you should think past a grade 8 level here and figure it out for yourself, this sort of thing does not happen often, dozens of people yelling jump to her, and if it did, then more the reason to be upset over it. JivverDicker: I dont know what I would have done, but I defenitly wouldnt have yelled jump. |
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it's no one's business but hers, not even the police |
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that's very upsetting... it must be especially hard for her family to see a picture of her leaping to her death.... |
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People being cheerful about another person's death or suffering also happens all the time, they just don't care. It's also not something new, think of the public executions or gladiatorfights a long time ago. Think of all the cheering people when the WTC tower collapsed. I have to admit that maybe I'm getting a bit too numb about bad stuff around me but I think if I get angry or depressed about these things, my entire life would be miserable and that won't help the situation get any better... I'm just trying to live.... |
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That is a very sad thing. People these days exploit everything. In particular the folks at rotten.com, twisted freaks. They deserve whatever they get. |
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You can't let every death that happens in the world affect you. It sounds macabre, but people die all the tim and as you say you've just got to get on with life and be pretty machavellian (sp?) about it all. |
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yeah, you're prolly right, B3n... two nights ago, the theatre director of my school died in her sleep, which really gave me a shock.... she was the kind of teacher whom everyone knew, or had at least spoken with before...very strange.. she never showed up at school yesterday, so one of her friends went to her house and found her dead.... that must be terrible thing to experience.... so, life is full of surprises, good and bad. |
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Do you deny that other people's lives don't affect the world? We're all in this together and every action rings through all of our lives in subtle implicit ways as well as explicit ways for those closest. There have been successful attempts to change a person's mind about suicide as not everyone that goes to take their life is %100 positive about the decision they are considering. To deny the encouragement to choose not to take one's life is to deny a part of your own life, as eerything in this world is a part of you. |
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you can't let everyone's death affect you directly, but if you're prompted to feel sad and mourn in even a mild manner over a certain death, why deny those feelings? |
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This kinda overlaps a previous post had going called "The Nature of Death", nd basically we discussed the fact that sadness associated with one dying is socially constructed, not something that is natural. I good book to check out is The Denial of Death by Becker |
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Society is not natural? I reckon a lot of the major problems that keep us away from ;iving harmoniously with eachother on the individual and national and religious level take root in the denial of our feelings. Culture of society is as natural as mushrooms on a log. It's unhealthy to deny emotions. Denial doesn't make emotions go away, they only become repressed and "spiritual wounds" so to speak. Induling in emotions is healthy. That's what maked music so powerful and healing, we get to indulge in the emotions being conveyed. |
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And that is why art will and the increase of creative expression will play a major part in the healing of the mass wounds in humanity. Art is far more than mere diversion. |
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I think you misread what I wrote jupitah. what I worte was that feeling of sadness associated with death is not completely natural. It is now natural due to the social constructs of the world, but there was a time when someone died they were merely just left on the ground. No sadness, no burial etc. Death has now become what man will fear most, it is at the heart of everything we do and feel, whether we recognize it or not. Seeing someone die bring us that much closer. |
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it's evolution. things change and that is the nature of nature. i'm not trying to argue with your point about the sadness associated with death having developed along side society, i'm just stating that humanity and society are natural, completely. |
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the point i was making is we shouldn't trivialize the mourning process or death. so long as people feel they need to concern theirselves with death they should be left to do so. i don't know if you or anyone holds a different opinion on this matter, i was just triggered to express this thought. |
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I agree with you somewhat. I would saythat intergrating into a society feels natural to us because it is this action that gives a species the best chances for survival, so it often appears to be the "right" and only way. Some species are born with the function of living and being a part of a society within their genes. Our society however, was not a product of genes, but rather of evolution and survival, imo of course. |
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that looks like quite a pretty place to be committing suicide in. not to trivialise it...eep! just saying. it's a lot prettier than my town. if I lived there I would go to that bridge all the time just to think. |
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life is vastly overrated... especially each individuals opinion of themselves... we need suicide booths, so people can end their lives with dignity and end their useless lives when it is time... |
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it does look nice. |
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right, but evolution is primarily about creation, or in the case of biological evolution, reproduction, and survival is only one of the factors aiding in reproductive success. |
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Survival isn't part of reproductive success, reproductive success is part of survival, because w/o rep. suc. there is no survival. Evolution isn't linked with creation, because creation must come before evolution. You need something there first to evolve, not the other way around. |
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you misunderstand... i'm not talking survuval of a species as a whole, i'm talking about survuval of the individual. a species does not evolve if its individuals have a high survival rate but do not reproduce. reproduction is exactly how natural selection works. species with high reproductive success can evolve, but often the survival of a creature allows for more reproduction. the "survuval of the fitest" is a popular term that people who don't understand biological evolution use. and creation of another life is reproduction. chemical evolution has to do with self replicating chemicals and this is what i mean by creation. |
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For a generic example, consider a species with some individuals that have a trait that allows it to reproduce a lot but dies quicker than other individuals in the same species that live long but reproduce little. The trait for long life will grow less and less common in the population and the trait for higher reproduction will become more common. |
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you must have misunderstood me, cause rereading what you said, i think you are in agreement with me :) |
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well I think it's a given that a species doesn't survive without reproduction, there is no way it could be otherwise. This is why I said reproduction is a part of survival, b/c there is no survival without reproduction. However, my main point is that emotions are a byproduct of evoltuion. When what eventually became man as we now know it, was first alive he didn't roam across the plain feeling in love, or betrayed. he felt hunger, he felt cold. More complex emotions came attached with or evolution, which was compounded by a growing network of modern society. |
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you know this? i bet emotions were around sonce the creation of the universe. i bet the big bang was the gloriest emotional expereicne of all time. when i make love (not that i have in a while) i feel at climax that i am reliving the creation of the universe. take that however you will. I think that evolution may have brought on the complexification of emotions, but they did not just "pop" into existence at some magic spark of who knows what. tell me the point at which emotions came to be? what caused it? was there a magic number of brain cells? a specific divine moment triggerd by a certain thought pattern? just think about it. same goes for consciousness/self-awareness in genreral. at which magic moment did the spark of consciousness hit? we are merely a focal point of consciousness, and the progression from the dawn of time to this moment did was not "no consciousness, no cousciousnesss, consoiusness," but rather it is a continuum. everything is fluid like this, there aren't clear lines and these are issues that are leading scientists to have to consider more radical ideas of late. if you truly examine existence with objectivity, you can not draw lines. |
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...much like fractals. exactly like fractals. they are more than just pretty pictures as math is more than numerical computation. |
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whatever. I just feel bad for that woman. |
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I covered this in the other post Juiptah, I had learned that in man's first existence, he was an animal just like any other. He lived somewhat by himself/herself, exept for when men would run ino others, and help each other out to make a kill, and a mother withher child until it was strong enough to be on it's own. Eventually, tribes began to form in order to help the survival rate, but when people passed away (this was my orginal point), there was no remorse. Those dead were left whereever they happen to be killed or passed out. It wasn't until hundreds of years later, when tribes were very close knit, that the dead would be moved into a burial place of sorts, and flowers began to be put on the graves of those dead. This shows the evolution of emotions that is a result of the formation of a society. Emotions did not just "pop" into existence as you made my reply sound like, but rathered more complex emotions came about with more complex societies that brought fourth more complex situations to cause these emotions. |
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regarding not beling able to draw clear lines, my point was that pre-modern man could have felt love just like we do and love may in fact be the most primordial of all emotions. it probably took a lot of love for something like existence to... come into existence. much love to that woman. it makes me sad, especially imagining the cruel people yelling at her. i don't know whether or not those pictures were so inappropriate. i don't think i would have felt the sadness as intensely as i did if i hadn't seen them. i don't think the online paper displayed them as an exploitation. it made the story much more personal, more than just another suicide. i saw her face. |
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I agree with the your second paragraph about personalizing the suicide after reconsideration. There is no reason not to show it, it happened, it was there for anyone to see, no use not showing real life. You should check out that link I posted in this thread Jupitah, seeing as you have proven your great philisophical thinking skills, you might appreciate it. |
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you right, i infered that you were of the "pop" assumption cause i get that a lot. most people just don't think about it. i still don't understand why you don't think early humans or even prehumans didn't feel love. i think if evolution involves the complexification of emotions through time then love was the original simplest emotion. not just love between the individual, but the universal love, what drives us to go on. |
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ill check that |
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I don't it is love that drives us to go on because that implies a certain sort of unity between a community that early man did not have. It is survival and the fear of death (the oldest and strongest emotion to date imo) that drove humans to go in the beginning of things. |
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Love is one of the most complex emotions there is. Think of how many countless people have tried to explain it in poems, songs, even damn Hallmark cards, but admit that there is no true way to explain love, rather it needs to be experienced. It is indeed a complex emotion, but fear on the other hand is not. |
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fear is very much related to love i think. facing ones fears and overcoming them can lead to a new found love for life, or this is my experince at least, and i have witnessed friends overcome fears and watched their lives change, as well as my own. the mystical spiritual experience that many people have from all religious backgrounds, including non-denominational spirituality, often involves oneness and universal love. shamans interviewed by anthropolgists express universal love for nature (doesn't have to involve human communty, so community was not needed for love to exist) and religion is belived to date extremely far back. neanderthals are beleived to have religious practice by cave art found. i don't think fear is so simple either. all emotions are complex. all people, myself included, have fears to face we don't even know about yet. right now there is a general fear of change and the unknown that i see throughout humanity. this is seen in the extreme reactions rock music when it first started getting big. people actually thought it was evil just because the music expresses new emotions and youth who listened to early rock music were acting out and expressing in ways more free than their parents had. new emotions scare people. then again, emotions are only complex when we try to describe them away with logic when if they are just felt, they make perfect sense. they just are. |
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