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 Now online (3)Bremzen dariusgriffin belb ...and 432 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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Members 8025Messages 2614103 Today 0 Topics 127542 |
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cool.... nice track |
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is this you? |
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anyone else listening to this? it's quite good...... i've not heard Monolake befor, and this is ok.... not what i'd usually listen to but it's rocking along quite nicely |
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I'm liking, this is sounding like a closing track though, oh no there's more, damn. |
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If only the locals sounded like this. |
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WAIT! is there anything electronic in there...? |
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as in pj harvey? or tom waits? |
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cut your hair and have cds in your hats like lee perry if your not happy |
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http://www.snappermusic.com/images/content/secret/SDPCD191% real as it gets 20Lee%20Perry%20250.jpg |
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damnit bad link http://www.snappermusic.com/images/content/secret/SDPCD191% 20Lee%20Perry%20250.jpg |
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I'm glad some folks enjoyed it... sorry I wasn't around while the thread was in progress. it should be up in the wpvm archives soon if anyone missed it and wants to give it a listen. |
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you made some happy for sure : ) |
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link that shit up when it's there |
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I fell asleep to this, which was pleasant. That wasn't its effect however, san miguel at play. Great stuff, a link'd be good :) |
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stream is archived It starts off with someone else's shit, not sure why... anyways my cut starts at 2 minutes in. |
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i'll tune in for the same reason i tune into anyone else's session on the cut - to hear what your voice sounds like. in a non-creepy way. |
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Oh well, now, that's a relief to know that you're stalking me in a non creepy way. :D |
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no mp3? |
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There are some who say you can save the .m3u file to disk, open it in a text editor and get the name of the mp3 to download, but I don't recommend trying that because it would be breaking all kinds of copyright law. Be good now! |
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so some say that, eh? I sure hope no-one does that not even in the name of freedom, justice and equality for all. |
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haha, actually, the show right before yours seems like it was quite soothing... is that ms badu towards the end (of that show)? I've never listened much to her, but it sounds like her somehow... I'm about to enjoy your show you sexy catholic schoolboy you |
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you'll probably also be pleased to know that your show will inspire the final blows of a counterattack on both sociobiology, determinism and "blame society!" theories. or maybe you won't. |
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I missd it, so I'll have to check out the archived version. |
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It was underpants gnomes all along? I knew it! |
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I think it gets replaced by next week's show after next week's show so get it while u can. |
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i've managed to hear about half of it so far, but been enjoying it. great YMO surprise moment ;] |
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no, it was you. All you. I'm basically just dismissing any "excuses" that let you pretend you aren't responsible for your actions, any excuses that pretend you didn't choose, but that your genes or something equally silly chose for you. |
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What's "me" made of then, if I'm not made of anything? |
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I've downloaded it to listen to later, not today, as it's the by well now documented No Music Day. Maybe if there's an edit with just Fleet's lovely, professional voice. |
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I can make a recording of me purring some Anais Nin erotica into your ears, rrrrrowwwwrrrrrrrr |
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the way I see it, you're most likely something like a program running in your brain (though not reducible to brain and the "computer analogy" thingie doesn't really work, but it's a simplified version), but that doesn't mean you're determined in your choices by neither brain structures, genes or social relations; you're always able to choose differently from what you've chosen, and no behaviour or value has been pre-programmed for you. of course, your body restricts your capabilities, but your choices are still free to be made even if some of them are impossible to execute. |
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the way I see it, you're most likely something like a program running in your brain (though not reducible to brain and the "computer analogy" thingie doesn't really work, but it's a simplified version) So how does a deterministic process become non-deterministic? just because it's so complex you can't predict it with 100% accuracy? This seems like a lazy way of handwaving causality away instead of tackling the thorny problem of particular influence and cause. you're always able to choose differently from what you've chosen, and no behaviour or value has been pre-programmed for you. Horseshit. Unless you have been damaged or brainwashed somehow you'll withdraw your hand from a hot stove very quickly. We're full of innate tendencies and ways of perceiving, whether you want to describe it in terms of neurology / genetics or in terms of Kant's categories (which IMHO amount to the same thing). Some of them can be overcome with relatively little resistance (sugary and fatty food is tasty), whereas some are so deeply rooted you'd need to practically destroy a person to change them (perceptions of time, space, motion, relationship) |
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Also, powerful instincts such as self preservation can sometimes be overcome by others such as preservation of kin, or ideas such as eternal rewards in paradise, or chemical imbalance, but there's generally something powerful as a motivating force if you look deeply enough. It's almost like summing motivational vectors and seeing what the resulting direction and velocity is. :-) |
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the process isn't deterministic in the first place. quantum whatevers. Horseshit. Unless you have been damaged or brainwashed somehow you'll withdraw your hand from a hot stove very quickly. as you note yourself, there's no necessity here; I can quite easily convince myself to not withdraw my hand. I can also stick it back even if I do. I can even hold it there for extended periods of time. I just choose not to; not even the fear of pain absolutely determines me to avoid it. Also, we may very well have certain ways of seeing things, yes, and we've developed these since before we were able to think clearly, but there's no necessity in developing them in any particular way. Let's take, as you say, time. There's a tribe of people.. I can't remember the tribes name, but they live on the trobriand islands.. they have no concept of time passing and seem to have difficulties with recognising an object as itself after it has undergone some amount of change (a young sprout that turns into a tree isn't identical with itself). |
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Oh go sit in a pyramid and have your chakras rotated! quantum lulz = goddidit = it's magic = handwaving Even if there were quantum effects like the acausal spontaneous appearance of virtual particles working as the instigators of particular behaviours, I don't see in what way that could be seen as supporting a notion of [b]free will[/b]. About your islanders - is it your assertion that there are neither innate nor environmental reasons for their ways of seeing? If that were true, and all humans developed idiosyncratic ways of perceiving time and identity between birth and rationality, why does everyone in western countries pretty much agree on these things? And why are these islanders all the same? If these islanders have greater plasticity in their earliest stages of development, why? |
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oh shit look at me all using bbcode in an html forum, lulz |
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oh, there are environmental reasons why they perceive things as they do (more specifically their society), it just doesn't determine their choices or actions. Even if I'm brought up in a society where everyone every day is urged to kill a small cat, I am still able to choose not to kill this small cat. Even if I'm brought up in a society where there's no concept of time, I'm capable of perceiving time. And of course biology plays some role, it's just that it doesn't determine your actions. It extends as far as limiting your options, but even when your options are limited, you find yourself capable of wanting to go outside of it. Are you not capable of wanting to fly or seeing in infrared even though it is impossible for you to achieve it (without aid from some construction)? Did you know that you have , by the way? |
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Even if I'm brought up in a society where everyone every day is urged to kill a small cat, I am still able to choose not to kill this small cat. Of course there are exceptions. And there are reasons for those exceptions. Not everyone in western society values the feelings of animals as highly - and there are reasons for that. Some are psychopaths who have an innate lack of empathy. Some were influenced by childhood experience. My point is, there are always reasons. The self doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are always factors determining behaviour even though they can't be tied up in a neat little positivist package. Free will the way you mean it amounts to incoherence because there's no reason for any choice or behaviour. You might as well be unconscious as be "free" in that sense. |
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oh, I think you're reading me a bit wrong I'm not denying there are reasons, god forbid.. we aren't just blabbering blobs of random happenings; we base all our choices on reasons! It's just that even if these reasons are something we've been indoctrinated with through society, that doesn't relieve us of our responsibility for our actions. When I say determined, I'm using it in a hard sense, but I thought I made that clear as I said absolutely determined a few posts up; you have to distinguish between being determined and having reasons for acting. I mean, it's very likely that I, as a happy student in a "civilised" society, etc etc, in most situations will choose the course of action leading to the least amount of damage coming to anyone ("I don't like violence"), but there's nothing about having this opinion that determines me to always act on it. I am always free to do the exact opposite or just about anything I am physically able to do. |
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I do think we're absolutely determined. But there are so many influences of varying force at work that it's impossible to predict the outcome. So we have the illusion of free will, as though there were some inviolate little homunculus in a control room piloting the self. An endoself piloting the exoself. But that is horseshit. The self is the self. |
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oh right then this is fruitless since determinism is highly unfalsifiable (I don't know the cause and we may never be able to find it, but it is there no matter what you say). |
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The reasonable position is that there are reasons for human behaviour. Saying that determinism is unfalsifiable in some ultimate metaphysical / cosmic sense is as trivial as saying that solipsism versus objective reality is unfalsifiable. Are you a brain in a jar? There are always reasons, there are always causes, there are always explanations. Go ahead and prove me wrong. But then my taunt will have caused your behaviour, proving me right. :D |
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actually, I hate ending discussions like that so I'd like to question you a bit if that's ok do you not feel responsible for your actions? if your choices are only illusory, what makes up these illusions? |
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Sure I feel responsible for my actions. Knowing that there's a bunch of jelly and not a magic fairy in my head doesn't change my subjective experience. I don't know what you mean by what makes up these illusions. |
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yeah, solipsism is unfalsifiable as well, and I've never met anyone doing anything but pretending to be solipsists, so I just don't bother with them. and yeah, reasons, causes, explanations, but none of these absolutely determine your will. to me, believing you're determined by something can only affect you in the sense that you, as you believe it, let it come into play as a reason for selecting the course of action you select. Like a man who believes his actions are all somehow the expression of his genes wanting to reproduce himself. He will choose to act in ways that he believes will help his genes rate of survival, but he isn't determined, he just considers the goal of spreading his genes above other goals in a situation. |
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but if you are determined, why feel responsible? it's not like you are capable of responsibility; you have no choice but to follow the stream; you couldn't have done otherwise. I can't blame you for anything because you aren't a cause of anything, merely a result of something. I can't praise you for the very same reason. I can't even attribute your beliefs to you for they are the result of something in the past. |
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oh, and the illusions.. where do they come from? why do you have an illusion of a choice instead of a choice? you'd have to know your feeling of choice isn't a choice to be able to know that it is an illusion, but have you ever experienced this somehow, that there really isn't a choice? |
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believing you're determined by something can only affect you in the sense that you, as you believe it, let it come into play as a reason for selecting the course of action you select. I agree. But it's a reason nonetheless, and there are reasons it's come into play. Spinoza said that men were not free and the only way they could change their course of action was by examining the reasons for their actions. And that feedback loop becomes a reason for action, and that desire to change had a reason, and so on. Taking up the idea of responsibility, if changing one's course of action requires recognizing that one is not free, and the reasons underlying one's actions, then isn't it irresponsible to see oneself as free and maintain an illusion that prevents understanding and change? but if you are determined, why feel responsible? Again, you're confusing objective knowledge and subjective experience. I don't feel unfree by recognizing that on a deep level I'm not free, just as delicious pie doesn't taste like carbon, oxygen, nitrogen etc. just because I recognize that's what went into it. |
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I need to download this. |
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