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Ceri wrote in the : Ha ha, this gets better and better. These cunts who have the audacity to try to charge $100 for their amateurish tutorials, don't respect IP themselves. Come on lads, at least try to conceal the fact you're using pirate software. "Sloppy" doesn't even begin to describe this outfit... About software piracy. I had been trying for half a year to get a proper licensed upgrade to Reaktor 5. The local stores gave me the runaround, so I contacted the distributor and never heard back from him. Finally one of the stores told me they had given up and weren't carrying Native Instruments stuff anymore - it was too hard to get. Demand was so low the distributor couldn't be arsed to fill the few orders that trickled in. Why? Piracy. Anyone who wants it already has it. And if you want a legit copy you're shit out of luck. I eventually ordered from audiomidi.com in California and had a box at my door the next day. I've noticed independent music stores closing up shop lately. Same thing I guess. Why is it that people who dream of creating intellectual property for a living are the first to violate it? Seems a bit... counterproductive. |
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oh yes another warez thread. ok here's what happend with me. I started making music 6 years ago with FL. I used a warez version of it for about 3-4 years. after that I bought it. 2 years ago I started using absynth. this summer I bought it. there are still 2 vst's I should buy. Oddity and v-station. after that I'm as clean as a whistle. |
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Yaaa matey... |
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I think you've said everything that could be said in the first post. |
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and isn't it a somewhat unwritten rule that if you start making money from your music you buy the software? that's how I see it. if a 18 year old kid downloads reaktor, you think NI will have a substantial loss? they might gain a customer over the years. suppose you couldn't find reaktor on the net. I doubt people would blindly pay 500 dollars. I know there is a demo. but still...30 days for a app like reaktor isn't allot. another aspect is the bad support NI gives. there are bugs from absynth 2 that are still in 3. and it has been over 6 months since the last update. lots of people are pissed. |
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In addition to what has been said before. I used a cracked version of Reason before. Then I heard Version 3 was coming out so I laid my money down and bought it. I could've downloaded it quicker than it arrived in the post but I felt good knowing that I'd paid for a piece of software I was going to use a lot. On the other hand, I haven't paid for a copy of Ableton because a) I can't afford it. b)I dont' use it often enough to warrant paying for it. If I start using it more then I'll look at buying a copy in the future. As I see it now though. If I'm not going to buy it anyway then they haven't lost a sale. The fact remains that if I continue to use the product then in the future they will get a sale to me. Reaktor... Blows my mind. I'll probably never get a proper copy. Unless I become rich. Then I'll just buy everything I want. |
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another aspect is the bad support NI gives. there are bugs from absynth 2 that are still in 3. and it has been over 6 months since the last update. lots of people are pissed. Wow, it's almost as if they don't have the time and money to fix bugs, and instead have to release new versions to keep cash coming in. I wonder why that is? |
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NI charge more than most of their market can afford and offer poor support and buggy software (no matter how good it is), not exactly a good business model. |
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Yeah it's not always a bad thing. For especially deep and expensive programs an extended demo *cough cough* creates more sales in the long run. I think that's especially true for Reaktor, which has like a one year learning curve (to do make interesting things, not just vanilla synths) |
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I do mean to sit down for a weekend and work though the Reaktor tutorials. I might get somewhere. |
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Keep in mind that most of their products run on Mac and PC, and come in standalone, DXi, VSTi, RTAS and AU flavors. That's a lot of territory for potential bugs to occur. The Reaktor 5.10 update is utterly rock solid for me - it's almost a miracle considering what the program is capable of, how CPU efficient it is and how good it sounds. I have heard though that Mac users are having trouble with it in Logic. As for the price, hey it's a free market. NI has to cover their costs and make a profit. There are more than enough free Synthedit synths to keep you happy if you aren't too picky about sound quality. gIgI: the basic tutorials that cover building a subtractive synth aren't hard. |
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I'm not against them charging whatever they want, but with the premium price comes the premium piracy, that's just fact. I used Reaktor in the past and quite liked it. If I was to ever get back into makin music then I would definitely buy legit because I hate buggy cracked software. |
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You're forgetting that I'm off above average retardity. |
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I wouldn't go blindly running around in support of native instruments. If someone has a problem with the product that they paid between 300-600 dollars for, NI will give them the runaround. Maybe its because they are so busy developing new stuff, or maybe its because they don't make enough money to hire more programmers from those 60 different romplers that they made with east-west and zero-g (they cost $300 each give or take $1000 and all they had to do was design a new skin for kompakt more each one was released). They make interesting software, but they are also extremely bad businesspeople. |
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Would I buy a softsynth on a whim for £10? Course I would. Can I afford to cough up £100+ for a softsynth that I couldn't be sure I'd use for years? Course not... Same goes for sequencers (although replace the figures with £20 and £200). isnieZot sums it up, perfectly: and isn't it a somewhat unwritten rule that if you start making money from your music you buy the software? that's how I see it. if a 18 year old kid downloads reaktor, you think NI will have a substantial loss? they might gain a customer over the years. suppose you couldn't find reaktor on the net. I doubt people would blindly pay 500 dollars. I know there is a demo. but still...30 days for a app like reaktor isn't allot. The reason I criticised the people in the other thread, was that they were making money (or rather, attempting to; I hope no one is stupid enough to pay for that sort of advise), using the software (be it tracks, selling sample packs/loop CDs, selling tuition/tutorials etc.) from software they'd not paid for. They even implied they were full time professional hip hop producers making big bucks. For people in that position to use pirated music software isn't right. For most people, making music is a hobby. Of course, millionaire superstars who make thousands every release should licence all their software. Was it reasonable to expect me (when I was 13!) to combine my Christmas and Birthday presents for a £150-odd quid piece of software (Re-birth) which was, at the time, only a fleeting interest? As Ecnad says, they're charging far too much for what most people get out of it. |
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For most people, making music is a hobby. That's true. That means the vast majority of potential customers are doing it as a hobby. What percentage of guitars sold are used professionally? I bet less than one percent. What would happen to Fender if 99% of their revenue disappeared overnight? |
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i'll use whatever software i can get my hands on it via any avenue including just slapping down the cash for it. I'm mostly using legal software now. but i honestly don't feel bad about the things i've pirated. actually, i feel kind of good about it. yep. it gives me a good feeling. |
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Actually I think people around here are unusually good about paying for software that they like and use a lot. |
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I think a lot of software is just too expensive. Demo versions never really cut it either. I do buy some software for making music, for several reasons; because I like having a manual thats a real book, because it works better, because it's the right thing to do, but as much as I love making music I hardly do it at all so I don't pour much money into it. |
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Fair point. You should ask the following question too though; "Would the majority of those 99% amateurs with fenders pay full list price for a guitar, if they could get one for free, without depriving anyone else of one and with no fear of prosecution for doing so?" |
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So far, the justifications for piracy are: - it's too expensive to buy - it only hurts the company making the software - it has bugs - it has poor support - I don't like it anyways - hobbies should be free Am I missing any? |
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I think nr.1 is the least bullshitty and probably most honest one. |
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im an anarchist and i want to bring the whole system down :) |
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i totally agree with fleetmouse... the ease with which data can be pirated has created a bizarre philosophy of entitlement amongst most internet users. i have more respect for the people who at least admit what they are doing is wrong. there's a huge gap in logic and a basic understanding of economics if you don't see how pirating something could be a bad thing to do. |
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I use pirated stuff for making music, but I couldn't afford the programs anyway, so the alternative is not making music, which isn't an alternative at all. I can't really justify cracking the software, but I don't think I'd be able to live long and keep somewhat sane unless I could make music, and if I had to buy all the software, I'd be missing other important parts of "living," such as food and shelter. |
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Haha, I actually bought reaktor without even trying it. I could get the goddamn demo to work on my comp. (it was 300 dollars w/ student discount, however.) I never would pirate software, because then A) I would never use it (as I wouldn't be able to motivate myself, though if I invest money, I make myself) and B) I would never pay for it, I would jsut keep putting it off and off. I pirate porn all of the time, though, because I am trying out the immoral porn industry out of business. |
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I have loads of pirated software. I don't use any of it, I pretty much just try stuff out and suggest different synths and sequencer to people and whatnot. So if I tell 10 people about a certain program, and one of those people end up buying it, and telling 10 people about it, and one of those people tell another person about it, there are two sales that the programmers got because I tried an illegal copy of their software that I wouldn't buy in the first place. Not counting people who have bought additional software to run programs that I suggested. And honestly, there is no money lost by my trying out pirated software. They don't have to pay for distribution, manufacturing, or warehouse space. Its a fine line, but I feel its justified, because they are still making money from my suggestions that they wouldn't have otherwise. |
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guiltlessly steal their ones and zeros, so when you get famous making professional ones and zeros, people can't really feel too bad about stealing your ones and zeros from you. |
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so for you it's the choice between food/shelter and music software and you're saying they're on the same level of importance? |
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I bet software makers copy software code all the time from other developers and then sell it as if they've invented it |
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I don't feel bad for using pirated software when I don't earn anything from it except more knowledge. As a matter of fact it's the use of pirated software that has gotten me so interested in music that I use all my money on building my own studio. |
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Ok, I admit I feel REALLY bad for using a pirated copy of ABL, REALLY BAD. |
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I think nr.1 is the least bullshitty and probably most honest one. Too expensive? A luxury (hobby) item is too expensive? Then you need to reprioritize your luxuries. Cut down on beer, movies, take-out, CDs and vinyl for a few months, then you'll be able to afford it. (I don't mean you personally, qrterhans) I never would pirate software, because then A) I would never use it (as I wouldn't be able to motivate myself, though if I invest money, I make myself) There is a lot of truth to that. Hard-won pleasures are savored to a much greater degree than what just happens to fall into your lap. Maybe the ease of access to intellectual property on the interweb makes people lazy, greedy and spiritually flabby. Maybe having free unlimited access to every piece of software, music and video ever created makes you less able to appreciate any of it. |
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I bet you don't.. otherwise I'd have to inform Armericar that there's an interesting little country just up to the north that they'd might want to trample all over... hells yeah. anyway, cuddly threats aside, the second thing about people becoming complacent and oversaturated by all the stuff they can pull for "free" from the web might be correct, it is beside the point you're trying to make. |
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my opinion: pirates look all cool with the eyepatches and hooks and pegs and stuff, but they're not all that nice! |
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bip nailed it. peeps got pwned! |
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Where's the proper zilty pirate? |
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that's Sean's department! yarr! |
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Exarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrctly. |
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Google ads for this page: Buy Adobe CS2 Prem. £725 As to my analogy to guitars, I wasn't saying that made it right, I was merely pointing out that if you could pirate guitars like software, 80%+ of amateurs would pirate guitars. I wanted to point out the medium is the only thing that changes people's actions; it's not like amateur rockers are inherently moral, whereas IDM nerds are mercenary bastards. I'd say the people who view piracy is, "It's never justified and always costs the company money" are the ones "with a huge gap in logic and a basic understanding of economics." Painting it that black and white is a vast over-simplification. When I was 17 I had a pirate copy of Autocad. I used it for D.T. A-level. My school couldn't afford a legit copy, neither could I. An anti-piracy hardliner would say, "well then, tough titty, you can't use it." I think that's the illogical POV. Who exactly did my illegal use of it hurt? I used it for 6 months for a school project, which had no financial worth. After that time, I deleted it. 2 years later, I still remembered enough of it to start helping a mate (Architectural student) who was looking at various CAD packages. He got into it and has subsequently bought it. So, my piracy indirectly resulted in a legitimate purchase of a copy. Here's a key point with software: A wide, skilled userbase (whether or not they're legally licenced) are a huge asset. Part of the reason everyone uses Microsoft stuff is that when things go wrong/they don't know how to do something, they can easily find out/ask someone. All the people who have pirated Reason are still a benefit to the Propellerheads for the help they give other (licenced) users. I'm not saying "Piracy if fine", far from it (as the original thread shows). For the record, some of my software is legit. I just think it's a lot more complex than, "Piracy is always wrong", too. Drunken Mastah's point re: porn is a valid one. Piracy of that is rife and, bizarrely, not seen as immo |
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... not seen as immoral. |
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anyway, cuddly threats aside, the second thing about people becoming complacent and oversaturated by all the stuff they can pull for "free" from the web might be correct, it is beside the point you're trying to make. Not at all. Lower perceived value and massive oversupply surely have an effect on people's willingness to pay for IP. |
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Here's the thing, ey? Porn creators and distributors do nothing to protect their products with DRM and never go after individual pirates, yet they still make money. What software developers must do is create a glans driven business plan. |
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BTW everything you say about the indirect benefits of piracy is true in some ways and I've made those arguments myself. But why is it getting harder for me to buy music and software that I want? When a retailer tells me they're not carrying NI products anymore because the distributor won't fill the ridiculously tiny amount of orders for NI software because of piracy, I see a cause and effect relationship and the "indirect benefits of piracy" argument sort of breaks down, doesn't it? |
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so you're saying because they don't have to pay for it they don't want to pay for it? |
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no, you silly billy. read it again. I'm saying food and shelter are of a higher importance, so I prioritize spending money on that over software for music. however, not making music isn't an option either, and I while I can't live without food or shelter, I can make music without buying the software. if I wasn't a poor student, I'd pay for the software, but I just can't afford it. It's basically the same excuse anyone would use for stealing something. |
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I think arf summed it up nicely - it creates a bizarre attitude of entitlement. |
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the argument you're making still seems to come down to, "come ooonnnn..." it doesn't matter at all whether you have made money using the software or how long you used it. what matters is whether adobe made the money or not from the copy you were supposed to have bought. it is black and white in money terms. it's high school economics: you pay for an apple or you steal an apple. if you steal the apple, the guy selling the apple lost the money he was supposed to earn on an apple. it is no different than the selling of intellectual property, it is just that you see it as, "well i didn't waste the packaging, so no harm done" - absolutely not. then you say it is an issue of personal responsibility to buy it later on? well, i am sure that company x would have liked you to buy the product in time for them to further develop it or whatever. do you wait until the business tanks before you get around to buying it? or can you even find it in the stores (fleetmouse's example)? |
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however, not making music isn't an option either Sure it is. Lots of people don't make music. |
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