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AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-13 07:07 [#00069073]



right on bumblefuck
bumbefuck heres not stereotyping anyone
it just so happens that that frame of mind and the type of
thinking he was talking about is extremely popular among
people who are religious


 

The_Funkmaster from Newfoundland, Canada on 2002-01-13 07:09 [#00069074]



shrug... I really don't care anyways... I believe what I
believe, and anyone who would disrespect me because of that
is ignorant anyways...


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-13 07:39 [#00069086]



no ones disrespecting you funkmaster
(at least im not, i guess i cant speak for anyone else)
but why do spiritual/religous people get offended so easily
and quickly become defensive w/ shit like "its just what i
believe and u have to respect that"
perhaps its because they know that they cant justify or back
up their beliefs w/ any sort of reason or logic
or maybe its deeper down they're insecure about their own
beliefs?
again, no offence to any induviduals
(esp. funkmaster)

 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-13 07:51 [#00069089]



Well AMinal, of course we are notso different from stones.
Stones are just energy, we are just enrgy right? Well,
alive or not (which isn't logically arguable since what we
are is our root of the definition of "life") I am conscious.
That is what I know. Everything else is belief. I
personally believe everything is conscoius; NOT intelligent,
but conscious. And also, if something lies within my
awareness, what is it other than a part f my awareness. If
awareness is consciousness and I am consciousness, doesn'
that make everythin a part of me? See, everything is alive.
Everything is a part of your extended body. What exactly
defines he limits of our body? Nerve cells? Skin cells? I
bet you and I have shared matter/energy before. Everything
is one living evolving single body; just some parts are not
as complex as what we call "life." Now this has nothing to
do with whether or not there is a God, but it does have to
do with unity, and LIFE.


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-13 07:53 [#00069090]



And regarding your comment on rationality, if we were to
only use logic, we could conclude absolutely nothing. To
balance your intuition with your logic is to accept the
obvious, you are life and this is a very special thing, and
also you are intellient life, which is ever more important
in the grand sceme of things, indeed.


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-13 07:57 [#00069091]



And to Bumblefuk, my view of reality is as objective as the
closed scientific models. I just choose not ignore the
questions that science digs up and brushes aside.


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-13 08:01 [#00069092]



And I agree with your view of religion. Religion doesn't
allow for evolving beliefs, which is essential to
understanding the self, the world and universal existence.


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-13 08:05 [#00069094]



I appologize if I'm boring or offending anyone here. I'm
going through a lot of processing right now and need this
communication. I respect everyone's beliefs; I just have a
strong urge to say mine, like many people do.


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-13 08:09 [#00069096]



first of all yes i know everything is merely whatever u
percieve it to be and there for in ur mind and there for
everything is you.
also, yes i know that if u used only logic then we would get
nothing
logic is a tool to be driven by something else (w/ only
reason/logic there is no point to using reason or logic! its
like the engine of thought sort of stalls.. if i can use
that metaphore) thats why i said it is impractical to
believe in nothing
and yes i bascially agree w/ everything in ur first msg
(well the first one reg. my msgs)
yes, we cannot draw boundries of what is alive and not
but that doesn't make everything alive
i think it makes nothing alive, since all we know is that
"life" is a concept invented by humans, and cannot
objectively exist, or be a characteristic of something


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-13 08:10 [#00069098]



"I appologize if I'm boring or offending anyone here. I'm
going through a lot of processing right now and need this
communication. I respect everyone's beliefs; I just have a
strong urge to say mine, like many people do."
same here

 

thanksomuch from planet claire on 2002-01-13 08:14 [#00069099]



his name is jeffro. i met him last week in a bar. he seemed
pretty lonely.


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-13 08:19 [#00069101]



who r u talking about?
this caserol joe fellow?

 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-13 08:34 [#00069112]



He's talking about god actually (if you can remember, the
original topic was god's name).

I don't see how you can claim with logic that nothing is
alive. At the very least, we are alive by definition.
"Life" is defined by what we are, as I mentioned earlier.
And I drew the conclusion that everything is alive because I
view everything as being part of us, not seperate from us.
And if you really do agree with me when I say it is
neccessary to balance our logic with fundumental intuition
to conclude anything then you would accept that you are
alive, or at least I don't understand how you cannot accept
this. And you love it :)


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-13 08:48 [#00069117]



i know that without some sort of intuition logic just sits
there and cant do anything (and neither can we)
but that doesn't mean that we're alive
intuition isn't some magical force that spouts out of ur
soul or spirit or something
its just a mental function
and mental functions are just physical functions in our
brain
life is just a mental thing too
its just an idea that exists only in our mind
it does not exist objectively outside of our minds
yes, of course everything we can percieve is just in our
heads but htat doesn't mean its part of us or make it alive
more like we are just part of everything else

 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-13 08:50 [#00069119]



ya sorry joe, i forgot the original point of the topic
(i was wondering how she could just bump into u in a bar..
and why she would say it anyway, oh well u can tell im
getting tired lol)


 

bumblefuk on 2002-01-13 08:56 [#00069122]



well about stereotyping christians... its just that every
christian-type i talk to uses the same rationalizations that
they have got christianity "right", while others have got
religion "wrong", and give religion a bad name. this to me,
is the basis of the "good us vs. the bad them"
rationalization. we have a perfect example of this metality
with the USA vs. the Taliban/ Osama drama that has unfolded.
christianity/ islam seems to mold itself very well to the
individual viewpoint, which explains their success.

rationalities that christians tend to have, that i find to
be questionable, but are always used...

1) they are part of the "right" interpretation of religion.
those others have just got it wrong because they are bad and
stupid.
2)there MUST be some meaning and importance of life for
them, you've gotta have faith. this is really just a hope,
a rationalization (you can rationalize anything, that does
not make it true). everybody wants to believe they are
important, on the right side, more than they appear to be.
this is pretty normal in human nature, but does not make it
true. its a selfish need.

i find that people a lot of people are disappointed with
life because they assume that since they are "right", they
have the "right" religion, they are part of the "right"
group of people, so they rationalize that their life should
be perfect or least better. this is just selfishness. of
course, you could just rationaloize that god works in
mysterious ways, which could mean absolutely anything. the
logic here to whether good things or bad things happen is so
vague to be meaningless. the ultimate rationalization is
that the individual is very important, obviously because to
each individual they are important to themselves. to me,
this is the subjective fallicy.


 

PERCEPTOR from North Liberty, Iowa on 2002-01-13 09:02 [#00069124]



I told myself that I wouldn't write anything especially
since its three in the morning and I've been up since seven
but anyway inspite of the grammer errors and spelling errors
here are my thoughts...
funkmaster, there is no need to be definsive. your life is
for you to live. listen to what others say and take in
what they offer. always leave the windows open for change.
some of us here are angry and some of us have had a
philosophy of religion class. all of that is very
interesting... you know the whole thing god-is he in time or
out of time, does he exist or doesn't he, mircles-can they
be performed or not. all this is fine but since no
practical answers are available this discussion isn't worth
getting upset about. now there are some who like to use
reason and cold mechanical logic as a way combat the the
bible thumping teen who roams the malls with flyers trying
to "save souls". comparing the extremes of the two
sometimes I wonder if there is more alike between them than
different. why combat him I say in all reality most these
types of christians want to argue. they like battle just as
much as athiest who preaches that there is no god.
each person has to die alone that is to experience death
alone it fitting that some would chose to deal with this
issue by choosing a belief system with an after life. it
may not be purely logical but it is the most human reaction.
more important than be reactionary to outspoken christians
is to understand why people choose to believe in a god. is
the belief neorotic, psycotic, is it healthy. picture a boy
around 17 or 18 and a father trying to to help him avoid
making the same mistakes he did as a young man. the boy
tells himself that he hates his father and eventually he
tells his father what he has convinced himself of. suddenly
the boy loses his father to a car accident. he is suddenly
alone as he understands that he will never
be able to see him again. years go by and as he grows up he
painfully realises some of the things father said made sense
and he would never be able to tell him so. he carries this
with him everyday he wakes and when turns in to bed. this
is baggage. eventually through a longing for something
positive, something greater than bodies moving around
everyday in cars and on streets he decides open the window
to a faith. i don't want to drag this on longer than I
already have but I don't have a problem with this man's
belief in an afterlife because he wants to believe(in a way
he needs to believe) that there is a new beginning. this is
his experience and this is how is giving his life
meaning.that is his choice. what about the woman who grows
up in a male dominated household marries a dominating
husband and worships a god that that is unforgiving and
hostle because of the fear that she has always felt towards
those whom she's live with. could we say that she is
projecting images into who god is because of the men she's
always been around. and what of the people who always claim
that god has spoken to them, the people who dramatically
wave their hands in the middle of service when it is clearly
out of place. they would have you believe that they are
"special". what I'm getting at is that we as non-christians
shouldn't judge christianity by the people because in the
end they are humans interpretting a book that is old in many
places a little vague. for some its a way of dealing with
non-being, others want to belive in a better world, some
hide behind it to mask their predudices, and some are just
clearly deranged in how they relate the bible to themselves.
in the end I wonder how all of us 50 or 60 years from now
so close to death will appraise its worth?


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-13 09:04 [#00069125]



im w/ bumblefuck on this one
religion/spiritual shit gives u a sense of being very
imortant and gives life some meaning
(ie: "god loves each and every one of you") haha or this
one: (god created us in his(?) image)
anyways, it takes more humility to admit that there is no
god and ur all alone and this universe wasn't created for
you and u weren't created by some loving parent in the sky
whos watching over you and theres no "life after death" and
u just dissapear.. not that u were ever here in the first
place
religion is like a mental drug that just makes u feel
better
it give u quick and easy answers to all the big questions
that could otherwise be unpleasent to think about
but above all i think it gives life meaning and makes u feel
special, and lets u always be on the right side of things,
people want that


 

PERCEPTOR from North Liberty, Iowa on 2002-01-13 09:48 [#00069127]



for some yes they seem to have an inflated ego due to the
perception that they are in the right club so to speak. but
with others this is not the case. others believe that their
actions...the life they lead can speak for their faith.
just this summer my girlfriend went on some sort trip
related to her old youthgroup where she was to be a
counselor of sorts. during her time there most of these
people(other counselors) who were around seemed to her to be
really insincere. however there was one guy who was older
in his thirties who was really involved with the kids who
really went out of his way to help the kids have a great
time. my girlfriend explained to me that he was literally
the only person there(adult, college students) that seemed
to have something different about him. with his actions he
seem to embody what others preach so much about. sad that
he seemed to be the only one who seemed to care. a lot of
what my girlfriend(katy) told of this guy made an
immpression on me. two days after katy had arrived home I
awoke to find her with tears in her eyes as she said that
while jeff had been cutting the grass his son(maybe 4or5)
had slipped down from the mower while it was still running
and he was killed. imagine having an active faith in god
with something like this happened. imagine what goes
through his head everyday. easy answers for him-probably
not. easier for the angry athiest to hate the god he
"never" believed in if this had happened to him. I guess
I'm saying that its not any easier to cookie cut a christian
than it is anyone else.


 

The_Funkmaster from Newfoundland, Canada on 2002-01-13 18:17 [#00069186]



yeah sorry, I do believe in God, and there are a lot of
people who would, and do disrespect people who believe in
God... sorry for getting defensive...


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-13 18:45 [#00069198]



Nothing ever terribly tragic happened to me to make me
believe in a god. I can't even say if I believe there is a
god. I just think life is beautiful and my stand point is
that the universe is much more complex than your science
class would have you believe. We don't even know what
electrons are. And when it comes down to it, does your
physical brain create or project your consciousness, meaning
all your free will is an illusion and you are just following
a high complexity of interactions in the brain/body
accoarding to the laws of physics, or is physical reality a
manifeststion of your consciousness? I guess this is really
what it comes down to, and you have to have faith either
way. You BELIEVE one or you BELIEVE the other. So
religious or not, spiritual or not, strictly scientific or
not, everyone is choosing to BELIEVE something, to assume
one of the two above situations is true and base all of
their logic on that assumption. Number two resonates with
my experience in life so far and that is the only reason I
lean toward it. It just makes sense accoarding to
everything I witness. This in no way interferes with
science. I am very pro-science.


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-13 18:49 [#00069203]



AMinal, in the same way that religion gives quick and easy
answers to questions, so does science in a different manner.
What's the difference. I think both science and
spirituality are being misused.


 

Sgt Growley from UK on 2002-01-13 20:11 [#00069243]



Apparently GOD looks like a cross between the drummer from
the Spin Doctors and Santa Claus!


 

Ceri JC from My house in Pontypridd, Wales, UK on 2002-01-13 22:18 [#00069298]



Ha ha, I have some right wing Christian friends who'd bore
your tits off and put another 100+ posts on this thread.
However, I won't give them this URL :)

Has anyone seem the movie "pie" (mathematical character- I
don't know the HTML to display it, sorry)?
That's quite interesting, I imagine God does hidden stuff
like that for a laugh, hiding things in mathematical
patterns like fibbonaci sequences and Prime numbers etc. How
else would they occur?

I'm a Christian, but I don't pescribe to a particular
doctrine or claim to have all the answers. I also try to
avoid criticising people/ramming religon down their throats
(In my observations, this just annoys them).

I think the greatest argument for the existence of God is
the current world, how on earth can nature (animals and
especially plants) exist without some creator? I find that
it takes less faith to believe something/someone created the
m than it was just due to an explosion.

An interesting point is that most theoretical physicists
have come to the conclusion that there must be a "God", when
they ask the question, "Yes, but who made the laws of
physics? Why does gravity exist?".


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-13 22:31 [#00069310]



instead of deciding that only god could do such things..
couldn't we just admit that we dont know?
and just leave it at that?

 

Jedi Chris from Tattooine on 2002-01-13 22:38 [#00069312]



...and we never will know!
Please should just believe what they want to believe and not
worry about the next person!


 

Jedi Chris from Tattooine on 2002-01-13 22:39 [#00069314]



I mean 'People' . . .


 

dave from canada on 2002-01-13 22:42 [#00069316]



ok i made this topic to see what you thought god's name
would be if he/she had one .
but it seems that it has turned into a big religous
discussion about the belief of god, i do beleve in god, i
dont think that people could be bull shiting for this long
and he still would be a big hoax.
every religion has a god of some sort , how do you think we
got here?
i think that everybody beleves in god, they would just not
admit it


 

BRIDUV from USA on 2002-01-13 22:45 [#00069319]



If there is a God he or it did not create society...there
not religion either...those are man made perceptions


 

Jedi Chris from Tattooine on 2002-01-13 22:46 [#00069320]



I don't believe in God - I prefer to believe in the 'Big
Bang' theory that was the start of the universe, chemical
reactions and science and shit!


 

BRIDUV from USA on 2002-01-13 22:47 [#00069321]



if there is a god and he were allpowerful why would he give
two shits about people....arguement from design..dont blame
the architech...his blueprints are perfect...blame the
contractors..ie-people. yes i know i contradict myself but
one must to be on top


 

BRIDUV from USA on 2002-01-13 22:48 [#00069322]



which i am not nor claim to be

 

Jedi Chris from Tattooine on 2002-01-13 22:52 [#00069328]



This is my own opinion, but if there is no such thing as
God, all the people who go to church and do the religious
bit - will be so disapointed if there isn't a heaven! Such a
waste, people should live there own lives, take charge of
their own destinies...


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-13 22:53 [#00069329]



ya god is a man made concept
that should be pretty obvious: otherwise, why does he seem
to exist only in peoples minds? and only in ways that are
undetectable to everything but your imagination?
peoples ideas about their god are more projections of
themselves than anything else.
the racist's god hates a certain people... the caring
persons god is infinitely loving... and so on and so on


 

BRIDUV from USA on 2002-01-13 22:59 [#00069331]



But i am also a strong believer in
peoples will....intersubjective thoughts between people....i
mean peoples will is strong and i believe if you will
something to be so hard enough...it will be so...so in the
case of god...the people who are devote faithfuls probably
will go to heaven...or their interrpretation of heaven when
they die only becuase their subconcouis has preparred for it
so much that in the end it is real and true for them


 

Jedi Chris from Tattooine on 2002-01-13 22:59 [#00069332]



..also I think why would someone's god of whom they
workship, cast such terminal illnesses upon 'good' people!
Is that the reward they get for being 'loyal'?


 

The_Funkmaster from Newfoundland, Canada on 2002-01-13 23:01 [#00069335]



and what if there is a God, then I guess you could say that
people who don't go to church and all that wasted their
life... it goes both ways... although I don't really go
church, yet I believe in God and the bible... it's kinda
weird...


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-13 23:03 [#00069337]



yes, exactly! ( to previous two posts)
if people believe hard enough the can affect not only their
bodies (ie, stigmata) but the way they percieve the world.
people who really believe in ghosts see ghosts.. im sure a
lot of little kids think they've seen santa
ancient aztecs saw their god
but surely we dont believe in their god.. he demanded human
sacrifices and such..


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-13 23:04 [#00069339]



wait, when i said previous two posts, i didn't mean
funkmasters
b4 him
he must have posted while i was writing

 

Jedi Chris from Tattooine on 2002-01-13 23:05 [#00069341]



I just tend to have an open mind about things! I'd believe
in ghosts if I saw evidence, just as I'd believe in God if
there was evidence. All we have is religous scripture that
is just 'hearsay'! We have not witnessed such miracles that
the Bible talks about in modern day have we!??


 

BRIDUV from USA on 2002-01-13 23:06 [#00069343]



AMINAL-----you cuaght that no email add too? strange no? but
it couldnt be him with the pregnant wife and all hes got
more important shit to do than watch what fans post.


 

The_Funkmaster from Newfoundland, Canada on 2002-01-13 23:06 [#00069344]



Jedi Chris: God doesn't cast illness on people... God has
given people a choice according to the bible, that we each
determine our destiny... the illness and suffering that is
in the world is from the stupidity of human beings... not
God... Why does he not heal sick people you might ask? Well,
it says that you just need to ask God...


 

Jedi Chris from Tattooine on 2002-01-13 23:09 [#00069345]



...and as someone who doesnt believe in god, if I am proven
wrong when I die - I haven't killed, murdered or done
anything really that I'd be sent to hell! Maybe I'd just get
a 'ticking off'!


 

BRIDUV from USA on 2002-01-13 23:11 [#00069346]



funkmaster...like i said Arguement from desgin....god being
the architech who draws the floor plans...us being the
contractors who screw it up...not that i believe that crap


 

Jedi Chris from Tattooine on 2002-01-13 23:11 [#00069347]



How can you blame terminal illnesses on the 'stupidity of
human beings' ?? I know a lot of people who have died
through various illnesses! Hey - and believe me, they were
religous - what did they get?? Short lives - thats what!


 

BRIDUV from USA on 2002-01-13 23:14 [#00069350]



you obviously do fear GOD because you speak of heaven and
hell with uncertanity...heaven and hell...what a lame
concept...yes i believe in consequences for actions but two
places where people are cast depepnding on what kind of life
they lead...it just sounds so lame...like the father
pointing a finger at a child telling him to be good or else



 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-13 23:16 [#00069351]



and what about when innocent little infants die of a viral
infection?
or what about when peoples planes are highjacked and flown
into buildings?
religious people seriously need to decide for themselve what
the hell god DOES and DOES NOT do.
every time someone survives a car accident it seems gods
hand was at work
..everytime they die its not gods fault!

 

Jedi Chris from Tattooine on 2002-01-13 23:17 [#00069353]



No your wrong Briduv, I'd don't fear God or a god at
all....as I said we have no prove of existance. Show me and
I'll believe...you can't. We must be responsible for our own
actions - don't you think?


 

BRIDUV from USA on 2002-01-13 23:18 [#00069354]



yes i agree

 

Jedi Chris from Tattooine on 2002-01-13 23:18 [#00069355]



I agree with AMinal!

 

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