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The_Funkmaster from Newfoundland, Canada on 2002-01-13 23:55 [#00069416]



one more thing from me... :)

with me though, I have my beliefs, and I try my darndest to
not disrespect anyone whose beliefs are different from
mine... sure, I believe in God, and if someone else doesn't
that's fine... I have plenty of friends who are athiests,
and we can coexist together because we respect each others
beliefs... you know, the world would be so much the better
if everyone just respected everyone else... you don't even
have to like them, just give everyone the repect they
deserve you know... look through history... all, or a lot of
the wars anyways, were because of differing views on
things... it's stupid... all we need is love? All we really
need is respect... :)


 

Jedi Chris from Tattooine on 2002-01-13 23:59 [#00069419]



Nice one Funkmaster, too true! We should leave this
discussion on that note! Good night - I gotta get some shut
eye!


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 00:50 [#00069429]



There were about 80 new post when I came here, so I surely
can't read em all... but regarding reincarnation, how could
you not believe? When our bodies die, we disintergrate and
spread throughout the world and become all the other things
that our matter and energy goes into. That's always been
fairly obvious I think.

And whether or not you believe in God, you must have faith
in something. That's what my previous post was about and I
find it strange that nobody disagreed or agreed with me.


 

bumblefuk on 2002-01-14 01:42 [#00069445]



why do you have to have faith in something? people WANT to
have faith in something, it is human nature, but that does
not make it real. you assume that the sun will rise
tomorrow (im not sure what it is like this time of the year
for you guys in Sweden, but you know what i mean...). you
assume that if you drop something, that gravity will bring
it to the ground at the typical velocity. is this faith
thou, or probabilty?

so what is reality anyway? how do we perceive reality? do
we create and twist are own views of reality to fit a
perception that makes us more comfortable, that we can have
faith in?


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 01:44 [#00069446]



You did not read the post before last. I already explained
why you cannot be without faith. Maybe I'm wrong, but you
either didn't read my comment or did not understand my
point.


 

aperson on 2002-01-14 01:45 [#00069447]



This thread is gonna beat stupid Ravers!

 

bumblefuk on 2002-01-14 01:46 [#00069448]



"our" not "are", i've been typing words that sound similar
to the word that i'm thinking lately. very odd. some weird
type of dyslexia i guess. must be insane and wrong, i
guess.


 

bumblefuk on 2002-01-14 01:51 [#00069450]



Joe, but you saying that you have to deliberately "choose" a
belief, choosing sides? why? the nature of our existence
is not an either/ or. i don't believe that you HAVE to
choose a belief. a science interest does not have to be a
contrary anti-religion belief.


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 01:53 [#00069451]



<or project your consciousness, meaning all your free will is
an illusion and you are just following a high complexity of
interactions in the brain/body accoarding to the laws of
physics, or is physical reality a manifeststion of your
consciousness? I guess this is really what it comes down to,
and you have to have faith either way. You BELIEVE one or
you BELIEVE the other. So religious or not, spiritual or
not, strictly scientific or not, everyone is choosing to
BELIEVE something, to assume one of the two above situations
is true and base all of their logic on that assumption.>>

It's that simple. You are choosing faith one way or the
other. I'm not talking faith in God, but faith in your
viewof reality. You don't know the answer any more than I
do, it's just faith. You have faith in what you believe
just as one has faith in a god.


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 01:57 [#00069453]



I'll except that so long as you actually considered both
options and you truly don't believe in either one or just
admit you don't know. If that's so than you are right. But
this also means that you cannot NOT believe in a god, but
just don't know or don't consider. Because if you choose
not to believe in god, you have faith.


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 01:58 [#00069454]



the above post with "<>" was supposed to have text from an
above post, but nevermind that.


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 02:03 [#00069456]



I never said a science interest has to be a contrary
anti-religion belief.


 

bumblefuk on 2002-01-14 02:03 [#00069457]



but if one does not question their faith, does that not lead
to the possibility or probablity of delusion?

that is the basis of religion, that the faith in it is
unquestionably real, beyond doubt, which is the foundation
for the religion, which gives people a false sense of
security, or wwhat they are at least trying to acheive. but
basing reality on a faith, to me, is a lie, a fallacy.


 

The_Funkmaster from Newfoundland, Canada on 2002-01-14 02:10 [#00069458]



I don't know much about the particular religion scientology,
but if you believed in science, like trusted that science
could explain everything, wouldn't that make you a
scientologist to a certain degree? Like not that you go to a
church of scientology, but just that you do fit that to a
certain degree? I don't know what point this message has,
but I thought I'd post it anyways... :)

also, I do agree that everyone has faith in something... it
doesn't have to be religion, but most everyone in life
developes some view on life, and something that they have
faith in... Like whether or not you believe science holds
the answer, or religion, or relationships, or whatever, you
still put faith in your idea...


 

The_Funkmaster from Newfoundland, Canada on 2002-01-14 02:14 [#00069459]



and about what a lot of you are saying about keeping an open
mind about stuff, well as far as religion is concerned it's
impossible to have an open mind I think... if you believe in
a particular religion, how can you say "Well I believe in
God, but maybe God doesn't exist and scientology is the key,
or maybe Buddhism is the way"... it just doesn't work... I
think you can take different aspects from different
religions and use those to better your life, but you really
can't believe in one particular religion and have an open
mind about others...


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 02:14 [#00069460]



I agree, but if you read the post I was referring (below
now) to you would see I wasn't refering to religous faith.
To have faith in something because a book and large group of
people say so is obviously rediculous.

"when it comes down to it, does your physical brain create
or project your consciousness, meaning all your free will is
an illusion and you are just following a high complexity of
interactions in the brain/body accoarding to the laws of
physics, or is physical reality a manifeststion of your
consciousness? I guess this is really what it comes down to,
and you have to have faith either way. You BELIEVE one or
you BELIEVE the other. So religious or not, spiritual or
not, strictly scientific or not, everyone is choosing to
BELIEVE something, to assume one of the two above situations
is true and base all of their logic on that assumption.
Number two resonates with my experience in life so far and
that is the only reason I lean toward it. It just makes
sense accoarding to everything I witness. This in no way
interferes with science. I am very pro-science.

Do you or do you not believe either of the two scenerios
above in parentheses? This has nothing t do with organized
reigion.


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 02:17 [#00069461]



Funk's version of faith is very similar to mine in that if
you believe in anything at all (which you probably do) you
are taking a leap of faith. That's obvious though and my
concern is specific to my above repost.


 

The_Funkmaster from Newfoundland, Canada on 2002-01-14 02:19 [#00069462]



it's like saying "Well, I believe this is the way to
salvation, but I could be wrong, and could be wasting my
life"... but I do believe in what was said about how you had
better question the particular religion you believe in...
like with me, I am a Christian, but I have questioned the
religion, the Bible, the existence of God, and all that, and
I still do question it sometimes, but for me I believe
finally that God does exist... a guy I know was in the
middle of a discussion about this kind of stuff in one of
his classes one semester, and he was asked why he believed
in God... he responded by saying "Well, because my parents
do"... oh my, that's the dumbest answer possible... you need
to question, and look at all angles what you plan on
devoting your life to... and whatever path you find is
right, then so be it, but at least look at it, and examine
it...

btw, sorry for not remembering the people who wrote the
messages I'm responding to and agreeing to... there are so
many damn messages in this thread I just can't remember...
:)


 

The_Funkmaster from Newfoundland, Canada on 2002-01-14 02:22 [#00069463]



this is a great thread by the way...


 

Cheap Magnet on 2002-01-14 02:24 [#00069464]



I can't see how science can prove anything. Or religion. The
world only exists in our minds...when you cease to exist, so
does the world. It's not like the world keeps on living when
your mind stops living, so there for all reality must exist
in your imagination, ya? I have never seen any evidence to
prove the big bang theory, just as i've never seen any proof
for a god type entity. The only important thing is that your
happy with how you live your life, and that you don't
interfere with the happiness of another.
Then again, i'm no Jesus

 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-14 02:27 [#00069467]



Joe,
NOT everyone is choosing to believe in something
i dont BELIEVE that theres no god
i THINK theres no god
(im not just playing word games here, theres a big
difference)
considering all the arguments/facts i know of, i think that
probably, god is simply a figment or concept created by the
human mind.
of course, im not absolutly 100% sure that god doesn't
exist, i could very well be wrong, but im pretty damn
close.
but then agian, santa clause could be real too.
if the evidence was good enough, it would require no belief
or faith
u could reasonable deduct it to be probably, considering the
information available, to be true


 

The_Funkmaster from Newfoundland, Canada on 2002-01-14 02:28 [#00069468]



yeah you know, that's a good point... people who believe in
the big bang theory are making just as big a leap of faith
as people who believe in religion, and God... I think that
because it's accepted by science, a lot of people just don't
question it as much...


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 02:29 [#00069469]



I don't know if that's the only important thing but it sure
ranks number one on my list. Not that I live it perfectly,
but it's the ideal I have in mind. Is this not the message
of Jesus? Too bad all the christian politicians don't
really understand what Jesus was on about.


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 02:31 [#00069470]



AMinal! please answer, Do you or do you not believe either
of the two scenerios above in parentheses?


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-14 02:32 [#00069471]



no, the whole point of science, (pure science), idealy, is
simply to question EVERYTHING and consider everything only
objectively
thats why its called the big bang THEORY:
maybe its true, maybe its not

 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-14 02:33 [#00069472]



sorry joe,
which two scenerios?

 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 02:33 [#00069473]



It is as either/or as a light switch is either on or off.
If you don't believe the switch is on or off then you
obviously are just ignoring it.


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 02:33 [#00069475]



"when it comes down to it, does your physical brain create
or project your consciousness, meaning all your free will is
an illusion and you are just following a high complexity of
interactions in the brain/body accoarding to the laws of
physics, or is physical reality a manifeststion of your
consciousness? I guess this is really what it comes down to,
and you have to have faith either way. You BELIEVE one or
you BELIEVE the other. So religious or not, spiritual or
not, strictly scientific or not, everyone is choosing to
BELIEVE something, to assume one of the two above situations
is true and base all of their logic on that assumption.
Number two resonates with my experience in life so far and
that is the only reason I lean toward it. It just makes
sense accoarding to everything I witness. This in no way
interferes with science. I am very pro-science. "


 

Cheap Magnet on 2002-01-14 02:35 [#00069476]



your exactly right, about the CHristian politicians not
doing what Jesus said. It's fine to oppose what he said, but
opposing Jesus and calling yourself a Christian is a bit of
a slap in the face to him ;)
Like Nietzsche said, "the last Christian died on the cross"

 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-14 02:37 [#00069479]



oooookay
its a bit confusing w/ all these posts
do u mean do i believe in either:
1) the physical world is a manifestation of my mind
OR
2)my mind is a manifestation of the physical world

it becomes sort of a feedback thing:
yes, the physical universe can only "exist" as i percieve it
to in my mind
byt then again:
my "mind" is only the product of very physical proccesses
going on in my brain
but then again:
the physical processes going on in my brain are still only
happening in my mind
but then:
my mind is only happening because of these physical
processes
i think u get the point...
they're both correct in a way, but neither idea can exist
without the other, so i dont know


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-14 02:38 [#00069481]



joe is that the choice u were talking about?

 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 02:39 [#00069483]



That is the question I am asking you :) Do you believe
either one?


 

Cheap Magnet on 2002-01-14 02:40 [#00069484]



quote: "resonates with my experience in life so far and that
is the only reason I lean toward it. It just makes sense
accoarding to everything I witness. "

BING, we have a winner :) I guess i'd been saving this up,
but, someone HAD to blow it and reveal the meaning of
knowledge in the universe, and the aquiring of this
knowledge...the ONLY knowledge that is real and accurate is
what YOU personally aquire. Doesn't matter if the telly
tells you the Easter Bunny is really the story of Jesus,
what matters is if YOU personally have expieranced this in
real life as to have grounds to believe it. Shamanism it's
called, and i'll be damned if anyone prooves it wrong, hehe
;)


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 02:41 [#00069485]



But actually, the third option is that consciousness/mind
and physical reality are one and the same, and many problems
arise from thinking they are seperate.


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-14 02:42 [#00069486]



that is a VERY good question...
hmm...
(shit, why cant school be like this?!? :) )

for now, im gonna have to say that i cant choose one right
this second
cus like i said, thier both true.. but only with each others
help.. like a logic circle
give me a minute here..

 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 02:44 [#00069487]



What more do you know of shamanism? I've been a shaman for
about two years now, but didn't know it until my friend
brought it up. Excuse me if that sounds absurd, but I
thought it was sort of funny until was explained what a
shaman actually does and realized that it is what I do.


 

Sido dyas from An Imperial Cruiser on 2002-01-14 02:44 [#00069488]



( ) ( )
\\__//
( ? ) <--JAH ALMIGHTY!!!
\^-^/
(( ' ))
(`)(´)

 

GEMMA PATTERSON on 2002-01-14 02:45 [#00069489]



eh????? what u all banging on about??? ;)

 

Sido dyas from An Imperial Cruiser on 2002-01-14 02:45 [#00069490]



Oooops?

 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-14 02:45 [#00069491]



i dont think we experience anything DIRECTLY
even if i conduct my very own experiemnt.. or from my
personal life experiences.. nothing is direct
its all filtered through the lenses of.. ha, the lots of
different aspects of reality which we're trying to sort
through right now


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-14 02:46 [#00069492]



can u guys tell me something about shamanism?

 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 02:46 [#00069493]



School does seem to be trivial when you compare it to these
topics, and often it is trivial. Then again, the little
questions are as rewarding as the big ones sometimes.


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-14 02:49 [#00069495]



yes thats very true joe
(re: ur school post)

 

Cheap Magnet on 2002-01-14 02:50 [#00069496]



Caserol Joe the Chubby: i'm also a Shaman, and as you said,
it also supported my beliefs as well, so thats how i
stumbled across it...i have a really good article on it that
explains it better then i ever could, if you'd like me to
send it to u it'd be no trouble


 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-14 02:51 [#00069498]



wait a second

as im sure uve noticed.. this thread is getting pretty
long.. and im starting to be concerned about you guys out
there w/ dial up connections, or computers w/ not much ram
it would be a shame to make it difficult to access this
interesting disscussion
maybe we should start a "god pt 2"?
..and continue there...?

 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 02:52 [#00069500]



I don't even quite understand what shamanism is all about,
but it has a lot to do with evoking emotions so deep that
you never imagined such feelings existed. I have all these
undercurrents, emotions that are held back in day to day
life and the majority of them lie within my subconscious. I
think we all have these... undercurrents and durring
ceremony these things are brought to the surface. Sometimes
the need is to experience pain or horror, but I've got past
most of that a usual session involves great ecstacy and joy.
Emotional proccessing is a huge part of healing and healing
shamanism has much to do with healing.


 

bumblefuk on 2002-01-14 02:53 [#00069501]



but isn't there a difference in believing something
unquestionably (faith), and believing a probability
(something is likely based on your experience). uyou don't
have suspension of disbelief, you don't have to swallow
something whole. you can still doubt. in religion you do
have suspension of disbelief, which is what provides
security, and leads to all sorts of selfish rationalizions.

you don't have to choose a belief system totally, you can
always doubt and keep looking. but people don't like that
because it is uncertain, makes them feel that they do not
have control of their universe. people are desperate to
simplify the world, so they can try to erase doubts. but
their are always doubts. you can't just say "i believe in
this" and make the doubts and uncertainty go away. the lie
of religion is pretending to amke all the unknowns go away,
because that is what people want.


 

Caserol Joe the Chubby from Minneapolis on 2002-01-14 02:54 [#00069502]



I would love for you to send it to me. What I know of
shamanism only comes from my own experience, my friend and
his mother, and very few readings.

arken001@hotmail.com

 

AMinal from toronto, canada on 2002-01-14 02:54 [#00069503]



i agree bumblefuck

 

The_Funkmaster from Newfoundland, Canada on 2002-01-14 02:55 [#00069505]



woohoo #200 babee!!!

 

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