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Hi, I am saying this at the risk of being told I don't "understand" some experimental electronic music (a la Autechre) but I'd like to say one thing: As a composer myself (soon to get a record deal, weehee!) I can telll you....it is a lot more challenging to write a continuose, flowing, senseful melody which fits harmonies in a normal way, than to do bizzare noises/avarnt-gardy plonks/repeteitve music with subtle changes..ect. Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing all of this kind of music to be like that, but some of it is.... I wonder what would happen if you asked some of these "musicians" to sit down and improvise on the piano. To create weird sounds is extreamly easy...simply record a source sound, bugger at with heavy feed-backing flange, add some crazy delay for the hell of it...ect....I can make those kinds of tracks in a quarter of the time it takes to produce and memorable "piece of music" No one probably agrees with me, especially since I haven't presented my argument particularly well...I suppose it all depends what you enjoy, and I repect that...but please, do not think making albums like Ep7 is hard...I can hear everything they did....it's justy some clever use of effects, and lots of mangled drum sounds heavily cut up, reversed, repeated, ect. |
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sorry , you make no sense |
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i understand completely...i get so frustrated trying to write a good song, on what ever instrument im playing at the time, and i have to just put it down for a while. when that happens i go to floops and fuck around for a while. |
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i couldn't agree more, i think that's what makes aphex twin so good: perfect balance of both melody and noise. however i think autechre are a bit of a bad example for your criticism. what they do is pretty brilliantly put together and i'd love to sit down with you and listen to you analyze every nuance of the albums. it'd be hard. i think a more apt example would be some of the lesser knowns (for a reason, IMO) including some of the artists on this board (no offense, and bear in mind i only said "some", not most or all). |
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yep me - my electronic stuff is mostly noises thrown together...although sometime i try :P |
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How do I make no sense? What I am saying is true, at least for me...arranging notes in a musical way using synthesizers is a lot more challenging than doing a bizzare sounding assortment of noises/drums ect. |
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but then again a beautiful piece will sometimes just fall together...beautifully... |
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i get very parranoid thinking my melodys are just exact copies of melodies made before, i think its quite easy to make melodies but i discard a hell of alot of them because they sound very recognisable, but i hear and feel new tunes all the time i cant get tehm down quick enough or they are gone, and when i do get them down, they sound so recognisable and like i've heard it a thousand times before i get paranoid. i have trouble realising my compositions are sometimes very unique but also very simple making me think someone else has done it before. stops me creating, when i know simplicity is the best way allways. |
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but are you trying to make art or music? |
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CS2x , maybe you're worrying about the wrong things in music. think about it. |
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Sorry, I didn't mean all of Autechre's work, but I used Ep7 as an example...in their other albums, I can see what they are doing and I can see the way the layers form, but there isn't much hidden depth to most of Ep7...although, there are one or two nice tracks. I agree about Aphex Twin-he gets the balance perfect, which is why I enjoy him....as I come from a classical backround, I may have different tastes to some of you, but I can see that some of Aphex Twin's stuff is great, especially the way melodies are expanded in Drukqs while the drumbeat is also expanded. |
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i actually completely disagree. If you have been playing an instrument long enough or have a good enough ear, melodies are VERY easy. I think those guys are just sick of pretty melodies to be honest with you, cause back in the day they did that shit alot. Rob and Sean are musicians and if you sit them down to a piano and tell them to play something melodic and beautiful, i bet you they could do it in a second, they just wouldn't want to. |
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also, I don't wanna sound a little harsh. But I think ep7 is gorgeous. its very dissonant and out of tune harmonicaly and maybe you just don't get it. |
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writing a melody's not too hard but writing a great or excellent melody is very difficult for even most musicians |
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but do you really wanna right a great and excellent melody all the time? |
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i think what CS2x means is that you need to have experience with music/an instrument in order to write a traditional piece of music. and its not that electronic music doesnt take experience, its just that some programs nowadays make it very easy to throw something together. i love autechre and i think their music is very complex and feeling. but it takes a musician to make music, anyone can make noise. |
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artists have to search further ,for the music to stay fresh and exciting. Thats why I respect the musicians in this electronica scene or whatever genre (IDM, breakcore , Glitch , Bleep Hop) you want to brand it under. Still ,I was a bit disapointed with Druqks. But thats personal. It seams like there need to be a new mozart or beethoven to step up ,and take us in a new direction never before explored. |
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"I wonder what would happen if you asked some of these "musicians" to sit down and improvise on the piano. " well... autechre has made some beautiful melodies in thier time. check out thier early stuff also... music is changing. While these people might not be musicians in the classical sense... its not to say that the word musician isnt taking on a new definition. look at jazz... is you asked these people to sit down and write a classical symphony, they couldnt do it. but what they do is still justifiable. back in the day, the classical musicians would have said jazz is noise. to us its pretty and nice... now our "noise" is electronic effects and whatnot. just becuase its not conventional, doesnt mean its not music. in 100 years people will look back at autechre as normal and stuff, and the new music will be noise. music is now at a point where its not just melodies and harmonies... we are now intruged by the sound quality itself anyways... im a composer too, im studying composition and synthesis at berklee college of music. but i can see your point of view. |
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zeus - do you know a guy from berklee who goes by matt molite? (aka yngwie malmsteen?) |
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i still think classical music is generally but not exclusively superior to jazz for melodies, but i've heard exceptions |
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forck, i completely agree. I think autechre was a terrible example because they are very musical, especially when creating atonal songs. anyone can make noise, and thats bullshit i think that gets very boring. but the topic is making melodies vs making not pretty broken up music. and i think its crap to say that its easy to make atonal music. yes its easy to make bullshit atonal music, but its fucking hard to make dissonant, dark, atonal music work. and i think autechre makes it work. |
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yes they do! |
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Thanks for the interesting responses... And forck_02lynix understood what I am saying...I am not slagging off Autechre, some of their work is very clever, but sometimes I get the feeling with some electronic bands they are making noise because they can not write a standard piece of music.... And I agree, it is easy to write a melody when you know your instruments (in fact, I keep comming up with too many meldies and have to be very selective often!) but it's even easier for me to make noise (especially with all those lovely plug-ins I have, hehe) |
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hmmm what semester/year is he? |
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yes i agree, its very easy to make melody, thats why i struggle to realise my tunes are unique, its just a different way of using them melodies. rarndaraki, i DO want a great and excellent melody ALL the time, i think it's what i love about music, once you get past basic melody you're tampering with just noise. I make music but dont class myself as a musician, people like CS2x who've had a classical training would probably bauk at the tunes i make, i do beleive strongly in simplicity, probably cos i think very simplistic, i'm told i'm a latteral thinker, whatever the fuck that is. my only obstacle with electronica is writing my drum tracks, i HAVE to write them real time or i'm fucked, cant program drums to save my life |
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he'd be going into his 3rd semester/2nd year ... i dont know how big of a school you got there, i just thought i'd throw it out. i went to h.s. w/ him and hes a metal head! |
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but saying that, theres some brilliant noise out there. |
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yeah it seems easy to make good noise... but try releaseing it on a cd, and getting the acceptance of others. its a hard thin line... but i think people can tell the difference between good and bad experimental. i dont know how... but they can ive heard plenty of songs where i was like "uhg.. this sucks" then listened to others, and it was so emotinal and great its like... lets say a jazz song. there are lots of em out there. and while one song could be technically right, and produced well etc... it could just not be interesting catch my drift? |
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"and i think its crap to say that its easy to make atonal music. yes its easy to make bullshit atonal music, but its fucking hard to make dissonant, dark, atonal music work." Ahhh, but how ould you define "good" atonal work from "bad" in this genre? In avant-garde (classical) there are lots of patterns in the music, and lot's of it is baes on formulaes and maths..I very interesting listen. I don't hear any of this in Lp7. (btw- I enjoy Tri Repetie, Amber...haven't heard the others) |
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Music should be about emotion, not the newest 'sound'. |
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hmmm... same year as me... im not sure... it is possbile... its a small school about 4000 people... |
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phiz, maybe you're interested in engaging in a project. I'd like to hear some of your tunes (if possible) and I'd like to remix a (to be chosen) track. I also could submit a finished drumtrack,. you supply me your added work and I could master it. ? what do you think? |
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phiz, i just get sick of melodies. i get sick of really emotional melodies sometimes. its really nice to sit down and listen to something that doesn't make you think this is the best song i have ever heard. sometimes melodies, even really really creative melodies get old and boring after you have heard them enough. thats why i like jazz, especially free jazz. and of course free jazz gets old after awhile too, so i guess what im really saying is i like all types of music and sometimes i just don't wanna hear an amazing melody. |
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just asking, zeus. sorry i got off subject everyone! thats the other thing...i hate it when someone asks me "what kind of music do you listen to?" because i cant answer them...i listen to whatever makes me happy, sad, angry, hyper...whatever pulls emotions that connect with the music. if i like the sounds that are arranged to create patterns designed to evoke emotion, then i'll listen. |
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oh and just cant get over avril 9th.......that has to be one of my fav aphex tracks |
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ok goodbye everyone, thanks for the wonderful chat |
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kluizenaar, i could send you individual tracks, melodies, basslines, samples set out how i'd like them in the tune, maybe 3.30 minutes long and you could add the drum track? the only recording i've got of tunes is an old cd i recorded straight from acid to cd, its got 1 or 2 tunes i could redo, i lost all record takes of it when the laptop got wiped out, nothing else remains apart from the cd, which is wearing out. i'm up for it though, i could send you clean wav files of each track, you'd obviously have to listen first though, and then decide, i'm well up for a bit of drum input though, nice one. mail me, i'll change my profile to a contactable email address, i'm not sure if theres one there. |
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I do enjoy simple melodies too...they are often the hardest to write....and over-colplicated melody for the sake of it is pointless....however, often in techno, melodies aren't developed enough...they simply repeat and repeat, with new layers added over and over...while that is enjoyable, I oftern yearn for the melodies themselves to develope instead of simply being added to, if you get me... |
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Cs2x, i don't wanna start flamming here. But i do hear it, and once again, i just think you don't get it. im not gonna explain why i think autechre works for me, it just does. actually, i don't even think i could explain it. sometimes music just gets to you in away you can't put to words, its like a connection. i can't explain why i think autechre's ep7 works, it just does when i hear it. same with confield and gantz graf. you can't go around saying its bullshit man. the ugliest noise to your classicaly trained ears might make someone who doesn't know anything about music shit their pants, and thats what is lovely about whats going on in the electronic scene right now. |
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The day making hard as hell noise tracks like Venetain Snares's Making Orange Things becomes "Easy" and everybody starts doing it, is the day I die.... fact of the matter is... nobody can make crazy noise like that album yet.... and I would like to see someone try..... "I can make those kinds of tracks in a quarter of the time it takes to produce and memorable "piece of music" ============================== "I can hear everything they did....it's justy some clever use of effects, and lots of mangled drum sounds heavily cut up, reversed, repeated, ect" I think that is the most bullshit I have ever seen on this board..... Thing about ART is.... you cant put everything in a nice little box.. and be content with that. Discarding certain experimental music and implying that it is not "memorable" is horrible.... Most of the experimental/noise tracks I hear... I remember and enjoy them much more then most other things. ART is soo great because it goes agianst the grain of things. You can experiment with different things and express how you feel through music. I make tunes.... but started out playing piano at a young age... and the sax.... and have found that making "pretty" melody music gets really boring after a while. I guess what I am trying to say here is this..... lets see YOU make some good experimental music. I am tired of aspiring "IDM" musicians bashing decent artists. It sickens me. I think what it is... is just blatant jelousy. Its ok to say you dont like experimental/noise music. But to say that one form of music is BETTER than another..... That is just such bullshit. ART is not a compeditive thing..... it should never be like that... and implying that this is better then that... is having this compeditive attitude towards art.... is just shit. |
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thats the thing, if you really mean and feel the tune you're creating it'll come out in the tune, the 'EMOTION' will shine through, you can bang a stick against a wall and sing, if your heart is in it, it'll be great. |
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excellent point phiz and mickey mouse. |
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melodies are overrated...string together any set of keys in a scale and it's a melody... noise you have to source, sample, tweak, cut, compress, modulate |
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i know what you're saying mickey mouse, thats the other end of the scale, creating melody from the noise, alot of artists create the melody before the noise, whereas venetiansnares has created a melody from the noise, well, i dont know, maybe he's extended the melody into a listenable noise, which then sits on a little fence of melody/noise which makes him maybe unique. |
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I am not trying to start a flame war. And if you enjoy Autechre, fine. I was just giving my ideas about how it is for me and my music...oh well.... And my comments in my original thread were not aimed at Autechre. Mickey Mouse.....no, not jelousy. And, I never said it was better at all, I said it was easier to make FOR ME. |
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"its just that some programs nowadays make it very easy to throw something together. " Arpeggiators are a great example of creating good melodies very easily, they really are a peice of piss, so easy tomake a nice melody, but then its manipulating the arpeggiator to create something different thats the trick, same with anything, learn it alll then forget everything. |
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"melodies are overrated...string together any set of keys in a scale and it's a melody... " That is not true, and an isult to lots and lots of music and musicians. Anyone can string random notes together, but to make them make sense with a harmony is the challenging bit |
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well homebro, i gotta go. this was a nice conversation that got my blood moving and it shall be remembered. |
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i think autechre do succeed in making good melodic tunes from very rigid and set formulas, thats why alot of intellingent and very well educated people seem to like them, because of the use of whats considered 'intelligence' against basic melody can work as a whole. |
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oh one more comment. yeai i agree melodies can't just be strung together. i don't wanna leave with everything thinking im a big melody basher that only listens to the sound of cats being run over by cars while doing it in the butt. fuck, and you guys probably took my seriously until now. |
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