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 Now online (1)ijonspeches ...and 177 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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god is a state of mind. |
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i'm going to sleep fleet... tired and sick(!). i assure i'll be back to elaborate on chaos. |
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I'm hitting the sack too. Cheers and g'nite jupitah, tits, skyfarmer, john-boy, mary-ellen, Jesus-boy, Cthulhu, etc. |
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you're right: imperfection can't exist without perfection. |
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Cthulhu fhtagn, motherfucker (c) G.T. |
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well God has certainly earned a bit of my respect by becoming a member |
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Cthulhu fhtagn, thats right |
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you're right: imperfection can't exist without perfection. I think you've got that precisely backwards. Perfection can't exist without imperfection. By enumerating the qualities of an imperfect entity, you make the negative image of the perfect entity form in your mind. If you do that with enough imperfect entities, you will be able to abstract the general idea of perfection, a process somewhat akin to linear regression or curve-fitting. So the genesis of the idea of perfection lies in the imperfect. God is an abstract entity that forms in a matrix of mind. |
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there is a error in that statement, i hope i can express myself with my weak english: the 'curve fitting' idea needs one tacit assumption you have not mentioned. it must be in principle possible to gain a 'mental picture' of something that is in the world, i.e. you need mental notions, and to connect them, you need words, and, to form a thought you need some sort of a language. language is the basics of all mental processes, you can't think of anything that cannot be expressed in any language, ie. you cant think anything 'unthinkable'. just as any idea, the 'general idea' of 'perfection' is, as you say it, constructed by the way we use the word, but it does not have anything to do with the real world. |
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language is the basics of all mental processes, you can't think of anything that cannot be expressed in any language, ie. you cant think anything 'unthinkable'. Language is not a set of iron rules beyond which the mind cannot reach. That is why language changes and evolves. If you look at English, the differences between old, middle and modern English are staggering. Hell, if you look at the differences between English in different districts in the same city at the same time, the differences are staggering. Why? Because language is the product of the mind, not vice versa. Okay, there's some feedback where your ideas are informed by language, but mind is primary. The grey goo in our skulls existed before spoken and written language. just as any idea, the 'general idea' of 'perfection' is, as you say it, constructed by the way we use the word, but it does not have anything to do with the real world. I think it has much to do with the real world. When we talk about perfect architecture, music, or what have you, we mean that these things are "perfect" because the authors of them understood the world enough to manipulate it into particular forms. I'm not saying that cultural biases and linguistic biases are irrelevant - far from it! - I'm just saying that, though what we think and perceive is coloured and informed by both nature and nurture, it's not dissociated from reality. We're here because our ancestors evolved the ability to make accurate judgements about the world they lived in, after all. |
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Language is not a set of iron rules beyond which the mind cannot reach. That is why language changes and evolves. If you look at English, the differences between old, middle and modern English are staggering. perfectly true. but mind still is the product of language in a sense, to put it differently: all possible thoughts and sentences are the language, mind is nothing more cause you can't think of anything not in terms of a langauge. i don't say that we can't make accurate judgements. what i say is that language is primary, since it is the border of our mental world. read 1984? destroying the language of the resistance kills them finally |
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to be continued |
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Where do new ideas come from? Where do new words come from? |
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to be continued Cheers! :-) |
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fleetmouse, i think you mentioned (don't want to go back and read, but wanted to reply) the arguement that the experience that i defined as the original source of the god concept (i don't claim to be a theist or an atheist, mind you all) is internal. if you believe in physics then there is no real separation between internal and external (unless you believe there is a separation between the soul and the physical world or that there is a reality beyond this one, which is seems--correct me if i'm wrong--that you don't believe in such). all is one, not just in the mystical sense. every unit of matter/energy affects every other instantaneously through the forces (to visualise you could think if it as strings attatched). for every "internal" experience that occurs there is the corresponding brain function and alteration in your bio-chem, as well as alteration in the vibration of your physical existence and the entire universe... not just over time but instantaneously. your every mind function affects every single matter/energy unit in the universe. every little thought and emotion. yet every thing your brain does is product of the universe by the same principle. your brain follows the same physical laws as does all and the nuerological and hence psychological and spiritual happenings are a simply a function of nature. you are simotaneously and spontaneously the product of the entire universe as well as the creator. this does not prove god, nor do i care to prove god, but internal experience is not un real, irrational or insignificant... on the contrary it is the product of natural phenomenon. |
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wow, I didnt realise that theologists disguised themselves as electronic music fans |
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For practical purposes, let's admit that there are some experiences that are not valid--that have no objective reality. A guy I know had a psychotic episode in which he believed--he KNEW--that he was the spawn of the devil. He almost caused great harm to himself and another person. Are you going to tell me that his experience was not just the product of internal brain chemistry, that there was some objective validity to his delusion? To adapt Plato's cave allegory, let's say the cave is our skulls and the shadows on the cave wall are our sensory input. If the shadows on our cave walls have no relationship to the real world then we are fucking crazy insane nutso buddy. And this whole idea that everything in the universe is instantaneously interrelated--no. Didn't they just prove that gravity travels at the speed of light? And at certain distances and weaknesses of influence the effects are negligible, otherwise astrology wouldn't be nonsense. BTW please use paragraphs!!! That was a real hunkin heap of writing you posted. It's easier to read when you break it up some. |
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i wouldn't say it wasn't a product of internal brain chemistry, but the brain chemistry is a product of something which is a product of something. and yes, everything is interrelated. in many cases your gravitational and electromagnetic influence on distant galaxies might be negligible (thought never zero), but real systems experience domino chaos affect. over time, subtle or "negligible" affects can become enormous. these are simply unconscious, but whos to say that your state of mind doesn't alter these unconcsious subtle influences? btw, what is it exactly that makes body motion different from telekinesis? in terms of physics, there is none, right? if you answer that free will is an illusion i will have difficulty taking you seriously. |
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i wouldn't say it wasn't a product of internal brain chemistry, but the brain chemistry is a product of something which is a product of something. Exactly, which is why objective, measurable evidence is of greater importance than what goes on in J. Random Noggin. and yes, everything is interrelated. in many cases your gravitational and electromagnetic influence on distant galaxies might be negligible (thought never zero), but real systems experience domino chaos affect. over time, subtle or "negligible" affects can become enormous. these are simply unconscious, but whos to say that your state of mind doesn't alter these unconcsious subtle influences? Very well. Now propose a means of determining if those effects are actually happening, and if they are, why. Otherwise it's meaningless conjecture. btw, what is it exactly that makes body motion different from telekinesis? One is fantasy. in terms of physics, there is none, right? if you answer that free will is an illusion i will have difficulty taking you seriously. Whether or not free will is an illusion is immaterial. We have no choice but to act as though we have free will. It's like proposing that the entire universe was created ten minutes ago with the perfect illusion of age and memory: it's a fun mind game but meaningless in the long run. What I am trying to stumble towards, I think, is this statement: ETERNALLY UNDECIDABLE PROPOSITIONS ARE MEANINGLESS BYPRODUCTS OF OUR SYNAPTIC FUNCTION. Unless you can make meaningful, testable statements about like groovy vibes and cosmic forces, what is the point of gassing on about it other than to hone ideas for a cracking fantasy novel? |
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"propose a means of determining if those effects are actually happening, and if they are, why. Otherwise it's meaningless conjecture. " according various chaos theory, backed by studies (some of which can be read in the book 'chaos'), chaos is in fact reality. "one is fantasy" in terms of physics, could you give me an answer? there is an answer. "Whether or not free will is an illusion is immaterial. We have no choice but to act as though we have free will. It's like proposing that the entire universe was created ten minutes ago with the perfect illusion of age and memory: it's a fun mind game but meaningless in the long run." i don't see the connection. as for menaingless, speak for yourself. free will is more real than anything you know. it is the first, primary knowledge. will exerted on the hand to form a fist is real. maybe you just don't want to bother thinking about it--i don't blame you--but the fact is that consciousness and will are real and not in conflict with science if one is willing to take a mature consideration of a reality that is more complex than a physicist would have you believe. to you it is a fun mind game. to me it's much more than the mind. |
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Just a stranger on the bus/trying to make his way home... |
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I'm confused. I don't even know what we're arguing about any more. Is telekinesis real? Is there evidence of it? And what does it have to do with chaos theory? Are the tiny vibrations in your brain like the butterfly's wing that starts a hurricane on the other side of the world? |
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