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 Now online (2)mermaidman Hyperflake ...and 298 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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As much as I hated witnessing Thatcher destroy the miner's union, I am totally and categorically against this latest strike. The firemen are using the imagery of the people who died in the world trade centre to try and force a ridiculous pay-rise out of the government. 40%????????? For putting out fires? Get real. The army are doing a decent enough job already with little or no training at all. Exactly how skillful must this fire-fighting be? I reckon I could hold a big long hose (although admittedly I've had a bit of practice ). Oops, that sounded a bit gay. My OWN hose that is. Not that there's anything wrong with being gay. Except that I'm not. I think. |
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Well, at least they waited a year+... But still this is true |
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I've done a bit of firefighting training and it is suprisingly complex. Mind you, I'd not say it's overrly hard to learn plus a lot of the time is spent idling in "social club" type surroundings. You could quite easily do a distance learning degree at work in as a fireman. Perhaps the greatest reason not to give a rise is that there is no shortage of applicants- there are 3 applicants for every available job... If it's that bad, why don't they just quit and do something else? |
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I WANT A PAY RISE! I'm going on strike! As of now. I want 300% Bring on the barrel fires and badly drawn banners. |
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They refused something like a 16% pay rise earlier this year because it required new working conditions - like not sleeping on the job, not getting extra taxi jobs on their 5 days off, etc. If they want to be paid like professionals they should start working like professionals. |
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By working like professionals I don't mean racing around in a ford Cortina in a curly wig chasing criminals, before any smart arse comments. |
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Don't get me wrong, they do a gruelling, unpleaseant and physically demanding job- when they get called out... However, they do spend most of the night shift sleeping, etc. as you said. My mate who's a fireman used to run a burger van on his days off, so it can't be that demanding. If the basic starting wage goes up to £30,000 I will give joining up some serious thought once I graduate. I'm buggered if I'm going to spend my life in an office when I can get an equivalent wage on a job where I could spend 4/5ths of the time making music on a laptop... |
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This is one of the best jobs here in Iceland... Nothing to do all day, just hang arround playing pool, cards... whatever turns you on and they also got their own work out room |
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These lazy death-profiteering twats should all get fired. If it's true that there's a huge waiting list then we should have no trouble getting replacements. At least the strike should make sheena macdonald sleep easier at night. |
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I don't understand why everyone begrudges them a pay rise. No one moans that MPs voted themselves a 40% pay rise this year. If they're organised enough to fight for more good luck them. And contrary to the rubbish the right wing press peddle, they spend a lot time on fire prevention; visiting schools, workplaces, venues etc. |
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I know, they spend time on fire prevention, but they do spend a lot of the time at "work" sleeping and playing pool... Like I say, if they get the wage increase I'll consider signing up after college. |
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I had to laugh when I saw my grandparent's copy of Sunday's Mail bemoaning Gilchrist's salary. Paul Dacre, editor-in-chief of the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday,has a basic salary of £690,000 a year, a little bit more than 13 times that of Mr Gilchrist. But wait, we haven't started yet. Mr Dacre also gets £65,000 in "benefits". What might they be? Well, they include allowances for a car, for fuel, and (according to a note in the accounts) "in Mr Dacre's case help with accommodation in London". Does he have to worry about his pension? No, not really, because thanks to the very generous executive pension scheme at the Daily Mail, he has already accumulated £348,000 for his pension - and he's only 52. Then there are his 115,000 share options that he can cash in any time in the next three years. |
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But surely that's the nature of their job. There aren't fires in their area 24/7; they have to wait for some dozy muppet to cook chips in a pan and shit. |
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At the end of the day, Firemen risk their lives to save people--their lives are worth more than their current wage...fuck that smug self-righteous turd Blair--he makes me feel physically nauseous everytime I hear or see him |
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I agree that they can't help the fact that they sit around most of the time- there are only so many fire preventition talks and equipment checks you can do before it simply becomes "busy work". However, this is most definately a "perk of the job" and the fact that they can sleep through most of their shifts means they have the energy to do another job. You're right ablout Blair though, it makes me chuckle to think of think how much he pulled the wool over voters eyes. He is Maggie Mk2... Jonesy: You need that kind of allowance if you live in london- and besides, his Bentley probably uses the £65,000 on petrol just getting to work and back- have you seen the amount of fuel those things guzzle ;) I always think when people complain about the high wages of "the elite" it smacks of sour grapes a bit- sure, these people get more money than they're worth, but the fact there are a small number of them means that it doesn't really affect you or I. I mean, does the 56p a year the royal family cost the average briton really warrant all the debate about should we get rid of the monarchy? So what if Tony blair get 5-10 times more wages than your average fireman? That's still only enough to employ another 5-10 fireman- not very many spread across the country... |
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But the richest 10% own and control 52% of the welath in the UK. And the gap between richest and poorest is at its greatest since records began in the 19th century. To have rich you must have poor. EAT THE RICH |
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Great! I'm gonna demand everyone pays 56p a year so I can live a lavish lifestyle simply because I was born to a particular family! Cough up you bastard, I demand my 56p now!! And hell yeah! why shouldn't people be sour when they get paid £5 an hour to work in a factory, when some Oil Exec pulls in £2,000 a week to sit in an office and help rape the earth of its resources...I would be pretty sour, no doubt, and quite rightly... |
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Yeah kill the rich. Unless I happen to get rich... in which case, fuck the poor to the max. Where I work its a very wealthy area but the people are so rude and it has to be said pretty miserable most of the time. Funny really. But, really, I think the gap between rich and poor is pretty obscene. |
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Unethical fiends born into wealth aside, some people who are rich have greatly contributed to the human race and worked far harder than most people- some are philanthropists, others great inventors/inovators, do you have a problem with them too? I know some people who hate rich people on principle, which to me seems as twattish as saying all working class people are idle scum... |
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How do you know they work far harder than most others tho? How do you gauge hard work? I am against the principle of hoarding and "collecting" money--the will of money is to circulate--a society cannot be healthy with some people having all the money, and others being barely able to afford to live...Capitalism is soulless. |
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Who me? - that kill the rich thing was a joke. Not a very funny one, but there you go. But I do think the way some people live is kind of sick when theres people freezing to death on their doorsteps. But this isn't the fault if the people with money... just a product of capitalism. Its probably never going to change either. |
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I remember a very wise many once said to me that if you give the rich people all the poor people's money and vice versa and leave them to their own devices for 10 years you'll discover that the rich people are wealthy again and all the poor people will have blown all the cash on cheap lager and lottery scratchcards. That wise man was ex-house party presenter, Noel edmunds. |
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But for some people to be rich others must go without. Take Richard Branson for example. Daddy gave him the money to set up Virgin Records and the people who worked for him created his profits. all he had to do was gamble on where to invest. You can work as hard as you like on your own but unless you exploit and appropriate the welath others create then you never be rich. What was that famour Rockefeller quote? |
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Was it "you can't beat a bit of bully?" |
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It's true- if there was a single point in time for wealth re-distribution and it was a one off or even if when people died wills weren't honored and the money went equally among the other people in the country, 10-20 years later all the rich people would be rich again... It's the fatal flaw of communism generally- there's no reward for hard/difficult work so few do. As a result the quality of life even for the laziest actually goes down. Look at it now- we actually get a very easy ride on the back of big business, consider the amount of actuall "work" you do and your quality of life... you benefit considerably from being "part of the system" even if you are exploited... If you honestly think you're not then go and live away from society and find out the hard way. |
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It was basically "show the scumiest, meanest cunt in the world and I'll show the greatest capitalist". Some of the most astute capitalists are the most honest and can't be bothered with an ideology of false consciousness. |
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You can't have one-off wealth distribution. The reason there are such disparities in wealth is because a small group of people own and control the means of production. The rest of us are then forced to sell out labour power to this minority in order to survive. The minority pay us only a proportion of the actual welath/contribution we make to make a profit. Therefore capitalism is inherently based upon the exploitation of labour. For the minority to survive they must increase their capital (due to the laws of competition). the only way to do this is by cutting your worker's wages thereby increasing your profit margins, and so it goes on. The only way to end inequality on such an obscene level, and at all, is by taking the means of production into communal ownership. If production is organised democratically people will work. And of course they will have an incentive. I mean, what kind of incentive is £3.60 an hour at McDonalds? |
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How do you explain why one group become rich and another don't? Genetics? Racial differences? Gender differences? |
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Capitalism... Its fundamental that some will succeed while some will fail... thats is the basis of capitalism, and as we live in a capitalist world what do we expect?! We can complain and whing about it as much as we like, but at the end of the day I'm living comfortably, and I've got a nice(ish) house and an xbox... thanks largely (or possibly entirely) to capitalism. |
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who among us would give up our lives, and the possiblity of increasing the standard of our living conditions? Its what drives most of us. |
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It's like the bit in "Imagine" where John goes something like "imagine theres no posessions" - it's like yeah right mate, easy for a millionaire to say! I dunno. Pass. A world without suffering isn't the world we know. I doubt it's possible. |
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On the firemens thing.... I certainly think they are taking the piss with there 40% demand... anyone with half a brain would say NO to that... you don't have to be an accountant to know that it dumb as fuck! I also agree that they have jumped on the 9/11 firetruck and are milking it for all its worth. I espescially like the the baseball caps that they are all sporting! Fuck em... sack em all! |
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Yes, it's particularly amusing that the US fireworkers who were actually involved in 9/11 aren't demanded pay rises- only the brit ones who had as little to do with that as you or I. Still, I always beep my horn and wave to the picket lines outside fire stations. Keep their spirits up, like. |
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WTF? I've heard no mention of 9/11 from UK firefighters. Did you know US firefighters get nearly twice as much as UK firefighters? Lucky psycho: Why is 40% ludicorous? Our MPs voted themselves that this year. |
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Jonesy - you obviously haven't been watching the news then. Perhaps another case of U.S. (wait for it ) HEGEMONY creeping in. To compare the pay rises to the MP's pay rise is ridiculous. Firstly, the MP's wield the power in the first place so they have the ability to award themselves what they fucking want. I know I would in their position. Secondly, if the firemen receive this pay-rise every other skilled workforce in the country will look at their pay packet and feel short changed. More strikes will occur and there will be a reapeat of what happened in the last Labour government. They have already been offered a reasonable pay-rise if they change their working conditions. Obviously they are too fond of their taxi jobs or their sleep to accept that. |
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But this 'modernistaion' is Orwellian Doublespeek for that wonderful neo-liberal wet dream, privatisation. The government propose cutting the number of firefighters on night shifts (when 2x as many people die), training them to do the job of paramedics (we know where that'll lead) and cutting the workforce by 15,000. This despite the fact that the government commissioned areport last year that said the country needs an INCREASE in the workforce. We've seen what happened to the railways. Do we want the NHS, schools and the emergency services to go the same way? You say if you were an MP you'd give youself a raise. So if you were a fireman would you strike for a raise? If you advocate self-interest how can you deny it to one group and not another? |
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sack the lot of them. train the army up to do their work full time or get another lot in. we're hardly short of people who want to become firefighters are we? unlike teachers & nurses who are leaving to go into other jobs or go abroad to work, maybe wwe should give these professions the firefighters money to attract more people into the professions. for once i'm with blair. what a hero. ;) |
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Well then how do you think wages should be determined? |
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In an ideal world we would all have the pay rise we wanted, we would all have a beautiful wife, in a beautiful house with a large automobile. Unfortunately we don't. You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes you just might find, you get what you need. And the firemen need to stop trying to make a profit on the dead and to get back to work. |
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How are they making a profit on the dead? That's funeral directors innit? |
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wages should be determined partly by demand, partly by skills. i know this is a very simple way of putting it, its far more complex but both factors should come into consideration. far from being an arselicker, bill hicks is dead right on this one. playing the sept 11th card is a disgrace. |
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I've still yet to see the firefighters use 9/11 for their own ends (unlike the Bush administration). As for pay, The Sunday Times "Rich List", published earlier this year, showed the richest 1,000 people in Britain now have wealth of £159,699 billion. That is around ten times the amount needed to give every public sector worker a 16 percent rise without strings. And there are around one million people, less than 2 percent of the population, who get over £1,000 a week. 123 bosses grab over £1 million a year, company directors got huge pay rises last year, averaging 16 percent of their salaries and GlaxoSmithKline boss Jean-Pierre Garnier wants a pay increase from £3.5 million to £7 million plus huge bonuses. Are the firefighter's demands so unreasonable? |
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yes |
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Wow! I won you round. Get yo ass to the nearest picket line Billy-Boy |
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jonesy : are the firefighters requests so unreasonable? bill_hicks : yes jonesy: Wow! I won you round. Get yo ass to the nearest picket line Billy-Boy ??????????????????? I'm more confused than ever now. |
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jonesy - An indepentant review awarded a 26% pay rise to MP's in 1996... and since then they have recieved increases linked to all other civil service increases, as recommended by the same independant review. The PM has recieved a 40% increase recently, but he has got arguably the most difficult/high profile/high risk job in the country, and I think that should be acknowledged. The firefighters here may not have actually said anything about the 9/11... but clearly there has been an increased support and appreciation for firefighters since that day, which can't have done there cause any harm. |
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He he he :0) You're gay ! I reckon this strike must be erm... due. As for the teachers striking in London I think they were just messing a bit, don't know realy |
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Yes I am gay... your point? |
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maybe not gay... |
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...my point was? |
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