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I'm even more against the firemen's strike than ever now!!!! I was at barrowlands on friday to see brmc and they had imposed a no-smoking policy due to the strike. I had to actually go down the front of the stage amongst the scum instead of up the back stroking my chin in order to have a sneaky fag. This resulted in me - a. getting shoved about. b. getting lager thrown over me. c. getting mightily pissed off. Fuck the firemen. |
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But have they 'modernised'? 26% is still a lot. And Bain is on £160,000 so... I don't see how the PM's job is riskier. Does he go into burning buildings? |
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"Does he go into burning buildings?" Maybe he'll be in burning buildings if some Commies try the gunpowder plot mk. 2 ;) |
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Guy Fawkes wasn't a commie was he? |
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No, don't think communism was invented back then... |
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The PM's life and his family's life is at risk daily. No matter what I think of him or the decisions he makes, he does have an EXTREMELY hard job, trying to please everyone in the country, whilst keeping the 4th largest economy in the world ticking over at the right speed, and attempting use what influence he has in the rest of the world to bring about change that will benenfit his poeple and (I hope) the world. Jonesy - You want the job? Cos even if they paid me £200k a year I don't think I would want the job... or could do it |
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I think the French might have had their romantic, utopian socialism. But this guy was pretty radical: JOHN BALL (executed 1381) He was a radical preacher who inspired peasants to rise against an unjust "poll tax" during the 1381 peasants' revolt. One of the rebels' first acts was to free John Ball from Maidstone prison in Kent. Ball had been jailed because he preached a vision of a better society, and agitated to win it. "Matters cannot go well in England nor ever will until all things shall be held in common... When the lords shall be no more masters than ourselves," he said. "They are clothed in velvets and rich stuffs, ornamented with ermine and other furs, while we are forced to wear poor cloth; they have their wine, spices and good bread and we have the chaff and drink water; they dwell in fair houses and we have the pain and labour. Let us go to the king and remonstrate with him on our servitude, telling him we must have it otherwise, or that we shall find a remedy for it ourselves." |
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Yes- many "low level" MPs are on around £60,000... compare this to a job of comparable wage and benefits, headteacher, university lecturer, average level IT consultant, etc. I'd rather any of those than being an MP. No matter what you do there will be a group of voters who hate you with a passion and although the chances are still slim, you are greatly upping the chances of an extremist harming you or your family. They do also work hellishly long hours, despite having pretty sweet holidays... |
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The people have a right to speak, and to be heard. That is not in question. But from what I understand about the way in which this dispute has been handled, and the position being held by the firefighters. They have no reason to go on strike, as talks had not broken down to that point. And the Bain report had not (and has not) yet been published. Some of the work practices that are employed by the firefighters are riduculous, and changing them could save millions, yet they are not willing to discuss changing them, and so the strike continues... and people will die because of it. That is wrong. |
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The firefighters are rapidly losing the support of the public, and I think that is probably what the government want. The army are doing a very good job with less than a third of the personell and equipment. Its making the firefighters look like cunts... |
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Thats not to say that I think they are cunts... but it doesn't look good... does it? |
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Yes, lots of people I have spoken to were in favour initally although now they are losing patience. People will just side with the government if it continues much longer. The fireman do seem to be very inflexible- to expect 40% without making any changes to work practices is both unreasonable and unrealistic... I had assumed the 40% was just a bargaining tool and they'd actually settle for 15-20% but seeing as they turned down the 16% offered (bizarrely reports relating to this differ- I heard some fireman say 16% was a disgrace and also heard other firefighter saying that they were never offered that...) it seems they do actually expect 40%- if that's the case they shouldn't of left it this long before complaing. |
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The goverment fucked up--the firemen and their employees reached an agreement--the government is a mess of contradictions and infighting--Prescott says one thing, Tone says another--and Brown flatly refuses to give em 16%---there were talks going on between the firemen and their employees, which were cut short by the Government--all you anti-strike members are suckers, falling for Government propoganda--the Government would love this strike to drag on, because it knows that people will lose patience, and turn against the firemen--and then Blair and Co. will come out looking like heroes, just like Bush did after the incidents of Sept. 11th 2001--- my American wife couldn't believe how little the firemen here were paid--like Jonesy said, the US Firefighters are paid MUCH better wages--and someone said the firemen profitted from death? They SAVE people from death by risking their own lives you cretinous piece of shit--they go into burning buildings to rescue people--the government profit from death in fact--who do tobacco companies pay their Corporation Tax to? Why, it's the Labour Government...Blair is a Corporate Whore, not a Socialist Leader. |
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How is the PM's life risked daily? From what I can recall, there haven't been any attempts on a PM's life in the last 100 years (excepting the IRA bombing of the Tory party conference in Brighton). Does HE pull bodies out of burning buildings? Does HE fight on the frontlines with soldiers? And you don't have to work that hard or be that smart to be head of state; just look at Dubya. Don't forget the state employs top civil servants, economists and policy advisers, not to mention research institutes, think tanks and focus groups. |
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People like Stephen Lawrence are the victims of extremists, not MPs. |
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The firefighters were already in negotiations for nine months before the government's man, Bain was drafted in. And they had to go on strike last week because the government intervened and threw the agreement between the FBU and the employers out of the window at the last minute. |
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But these changes mean firefighters doing paramedic's jobs (we know where that'll lead), cuts in the number of firefighters and my loacl firestation will close. MODERNISATION = PRIVATISATION + CUTS |
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Would you be prepared to pay more tax if modernisation alone would not pay for the proposed raises? |
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Well, instead of paying 56p each for the Royal Family, we could pay 56p each to help subsidise pay-rises in the public sector! :P |
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Fair one :) Still, despite whether or not people agree or disagree with the idea of the monarchy, they do bring more money into the country than they take out, however wrong that may be. Tourists (Americans in particular it seems) lap the pomp and majesty up. As a result everyone else gets increased trade through tourism. |
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I'd be preapred for an increase in the top rate of tax and in corporation tax. New Labour has set the top rate of income tax at 40 percent. It was 60 percent or higher during Tory prime minister Margaret Thatcher's first eight years in government. If New Labour reinstated this 60 percent top rate of tax it would raise at least £19 billion a year to fund public services and pay those workers a decent wage. Labour has also slashed corporation tax, a tax on business profits. When New Labour came to office the rate was 35 percent. Businesses now pay between 10 and 28 percent. If all firms paid 35 percent again it would raise around £12 billion a year. Britain's richest 200 people were worth £69.3 billion in 1997. They are now worth £112.6 billion. A small, say 10 percent, wealth tax would raise over £10 billion as a one-off contribution to the public sector. Halting planned military projects would save vast amounts of money. Last month the government confirmed an order for two aircraft carriers at a cost of £3 billion. Recently defence secretary Geoff Hoon said that Britain was likely to take part in George Bush's "Star Wars" project. That will cost at least £10 billion. The government is also pressing ahead with the A400M military transport project. This will cost £5 billion. The purchase of 232 Eurofighter jets, which could still be cancelled, will cost £9 billion. |
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I don't think France suffered after getting shot of their monarchy. Barry Island is enough to bring the tourists in. |
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'MODERNISATION = PRIVATISATION + CUTS' is FBU propaganda! Modernisation means just that....modernisation. Its not difficult to understand. Our public services are fucked, and need urgent improvement to bring them in line with the rest of the western world. We should all be calling for and demanding, modern, world leading public services. And as far as I can see that is what the proposed changes are aimed at achieving. Of course the government doesn't want to destroy the fireservice, or the NHS, or Education in our country. What benefit would they get from doing so. Unless you believe that the governments fundamental motivations are not the good of the nation, then you have to at least accept that 'modernisation' is something that needs further discussion. |
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Modernisation refers to introducing market forces into public services. In case you didn't notice, New Labour want private companies to run schools and hospitals. This is privatisation plain and simple. We've seen what privatisation did to the national railways, why let that happen to our other public services? If you do not accept the above definition, how would you define New Labour's commitment to modernisation? |
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Increasing taxes is one way to raise extra money, but it takes time for increases to take effect and for the money to roll in. Increasing income tax, without visible improvements in public services would without doubt cause labour to lose the next election... and I would rather a labour government (however 'New' it is) to a conservative government (who are in no position to lead a country). Slashing corporation tax is one of the reasons why this counrty hasn't fallen as deep into the economic depression that we see throughout the world today. Its all very well saying raise taxes, get more money to spend, but things are never that simple. The public needs to have confidence in the economy in order to maintain growth and prosperity for us all. The current climate is a long way from being the ideal situation for raising taxes. |
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Damn good point- Just imagine what we could do if the 56p per Briton went to renovating Barry island, it'd cure Wales' unemployment problem and bring the tourists in by the coachload... Lucky psycho is right- Modernisation isn't neccesarily about cutbacks- it's leftist propaganda that rationalisation merely means sacking people. If you study systems it is often apparent that even without firing people, re-structuring etc. you can save money. Often there are "legacy" routines/processes that are still in place from years ago and are no longer needed. By not doing these you can save man hours without affecting quality at all. Also, sometimes, as sad as it may be for the recipient of the redundancy, through similair situations a person can be doing a job that isn't actually needed- if they were made redundant and no one took on the extra work there would be no difference. That said companies so often cut back on labour and just pile the extra work onto existing labour. Still, it's not always the case. The best analogy I can think of is a computer program that does a completely useless step at one stage that relates to an old function which has now been removed- taking it out would reduce the size of the program and increase its speed without affecting the output at all. An example of this in business that frequently occurs is where paperwork etc. is forwarded to someone who doesn't check, sign, add , etc. to it, they just forward it to someone else. If the original worker sent it direct to the final recipient it would save labour. Jonesy: It seems a little hypocritical that you yourself would not be prepared ot pay more tax for a better service. I think 40% max income tax is fair- that comes in pretty low down (figuratively speaking)- it's around 50-60,000 I think- that's why there's such a sudden leap in wages from £40-60K ... |
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What I am surmising from Jonesy's pontifications is that you should get paid according to how much you risk your life. Just hold on a minute. I studied fucking hard at school and university to get a good education and a well-paid job. Just because some no-brained slab of meat wants to throw himself on top of a grenade or wants to run into a burning building to save a little puppy for a living does not mean he should get paid more than me I get paid for what I know ( and i know what saracastic comments that could trigger so don't bother ) not for what I am willing to risk myself to do. If these guys wanted a good wage they perhaps should have thought about getting an education in the first place. |
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New Labour's 'vision' of privatisation has little to do with aiding the smooth running of the country--but more to do with continually 'awarding' contracts to incompetent corporations with which it has links to--this practice of corruption and whoring has led to far more chaos and expense than public sector work-habits |
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No, slashing corporation tax has enriched a few at the expense of the many. To raise corporation tax would not destabilise the economy. |
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I don't think modernisation needs any more definition, it means to make something more modern. If that means that we use the financial backing and expertise of the private sector, then so be it. I agree that the partnerships with private companies that have happened are not the ideal way to deliver the services we expect. But to say that the public sector could improve itself just by throwing money at it is naive. I work for a company that supplies computer systems to the NHS... and its a joke... the NHS that is. They all work extremely hard doing a very difficult job, but when it takes 18months to decide whether or not to take a system that will cut expenditure AND improve patient care, it cries out for outside help. Just giving them the money isn't enough. MODERNISATION IS DESPERATELY NEEDED! |
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Hypocritical? Coming from someone with £10k in student debt, a £1000 overdraft and £12k a year wages? |
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It's true- you should get a wage that reflects, more than anything else, your benefit to society. If are extremely useful and have esoteric knowledge/understanding, you are more valuble to society than someone who does a more unpleasent, dangerous job if anyone could do it. If you choose to do a dangerous job, fair enough, you should get pay that reflects that, but it shouldn't be the all encompassing factor. It'd be a pain in the arse if you work hard at school, uni and do a job only a handful of other people can do only to get someone doing a "no brainer" job that is jsut more dangerous. Besides, if you want a dangerous, well paid job, work as an oil rig diver- 40-60,000 starting wage, 6 months leave(!) a year, but very dangerous and you've got an 80% going deaf in your 40's... |
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Why do you assume they are uneducated? So what useful role in society do you play by virtue of the job you do? |
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"I don't think modernisation needs any more definition, it means to make something more modern." Surely you're not that naive. Chopping a word in half a definition does not make. Anyone heard of Railtrack? |
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Ceri - The 40% level of tax comes in much lower than that.. about £30K I think. |
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New Labour is a party with no principles and no honour. All of its policies and initiatives are based on results from surveys and censuses carried out in middle England. That is why there seems to be so many disparities betweeen their policies. They are based on the whims of white middle class England. They don't care about people who consider themselves to be socialist because they know these people will either vote for them or feel disenfranchised and won't vote at all. They only care about attracting the affluent voters who used to vote conservative. By doing this they will be in power for the next two decades at least. As results in recent surveys show, the firemen's decision to strike is particularly unpopular amongst these people and thus Labour will never give in to the firemen's demands. |
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As far is I know railtrack was privatised not modernised. |
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The strike is unpopular with everyone I have spoken to... not just the 'middleclass' people. - Whoever the fuck they are! But I won't get into that one. |
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A private company that wants to improve the service it provides would scutinise and improve working practices constantly and consistantly, and make the necessary changes. I am not saying that our public services should be run by private companies, and that they should be run more like private companies, and should answer to the public (there shareholders) when things aren't as they should be. Currently it is all the governments fault for everything, and so they should pay everyone more money, and therefore improve public services.... What a load of shite! |
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Like I said, modernisation IS privatisation. They've already sold off fire engines to private companies. We've seen what private firms do to the maintenance of the railways. I feel very uneasy about them owning fire engines. So what IS modernisation then? Exactly? |
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It seems unfair to demand that someone else put up all the money for a benefit to you- perhaps they should tax the wealthier a little more to get it, but they should raise it say, 1% across the board- the wealthier would pay more that way anyhow... I don't see why people naturally assume that people with well paying jobs should be taxed more- I know some have got a job by their rank or family etc., but some people have just worked hard and do job very beneficial to society. A mate of mine's dad was working class, who worked very hard through school, had a sponsorship through uni worked obscenely long hours as a doctor and now earns about £60,000 as a medical consultant- why should he be taxed so heavily? He's worked harder and put more into society than most of us already without putting more money back into the public sector. I have a mate who's training to be a doctor who hates people who are "career dole collectors" he reckons they're of no benefit to society and as such shouldn't be included... (not saying that's my view, although I can see his point) |
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i educate |
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But there are people (company directors) who earn hundreds of thousands, if not millions a year. We are not talking about the middle classes here. And how is your friend getting himself through medical school? Mummy and daddy? I would assume he has not grown up in a broken home or on a poverty-stricken council estate. |
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So you're a teacher? A lecturer? |
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Modernisation means looking at an organisation and the way it is run and finding better ways to run it using modern technology and practices. A large number of public services still have practices that were outdated 50 years ago, let alone in today's connected society. It more than likely requires the help of the private sector, because they have been moderising for decades... they have to to remain competitive. Our public services have become stale, outdated, and complacent... and are NOT delivering the services that we require, IT IS THAT SIMPLE. I'm not saying that people working in these areas are not working hard enough, or a shit at there jobs, just that the way in which they work hasn't changed much since WWII, and the rest of the world has.... paying them more money isn't gonna change that! |
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you catch on quick. |
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They are finding difficulty to deliver because of underinvestment, started by Thatcher and continued by Blair. So what do you mean by modern technology? Robots putting out fires? The firefighters HAVE been modernising. I don't see how their practices haven't changed since WWII. Again, what do you mean? Do they not have computers? Have they ignored decimilsation? Do they whistle Bing Crosby tunes? |
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Jonesy - I'm sure you don't need to be spoon fed everything, you seem like a fairly intelligent person. I was talking about the public sector generally, but in terms of the firefighters... Technology means that joint control rooms are not only feasible, but can work much more efficiently than 3 separate control rooms. |
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No, I'm not asking to be spoonfed. I assert that modernisation is a voter-friendly term for privatisation, while you disagree. So I obviously can't see your point of view and so I'm asking you to outline what you beleive modernisation to be, if its not privatisation. What benefits do dual control rooms bring? |
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Robots putting out fires. Genius. Then we wouldn't have all these uneducated knobs saying how they put their lives on the line everyday. If that's your only argument then Myra Hindley should have been paid at least £1,000,000 a year because her life was constantly at risk. Bring on the robots. If they were like that one from Short Circuit that would be cool. |
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