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Do you think that if you just gave 100 million quid to the NHS, or the fire service that things would suddenly get better?! They wouldn't, everyone would fight everyone else for as much of it as possible, it is what has gone on for years, and what is still going on now. I agree that they need more money, but money isn't going to solve all the problems in our public services... is it?! |
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Why do you keep stating firefighters are not educated? Like the robot in Short Circuit. My, you are sooooo postmodern, kitsch and ironic. You kerrrrrrrrrazy graduate. |
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I am no expert on fire saftey, but I can see at least 1 clear benefit of joint control rooms. Major incident occurs... all the emergency services know at exactly the same time, and have exactly the same information. This can only speed response times, and therefore save lives. As well as (obviously) save money, which can then be spent on firemens wages, or nice soft bog paper, which ever is needed more. :) |
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No, no, that would be ridiculous. Duhhhhhh! Investment certainly would solve more problems than privatisation. When you introduce profit into the equation corners are cut to increase profit margins and the service, the workforce and the public suffer. Show me one instance where privatisation has led to a better service. |
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OK, what do you think of the proposed 10,000 cut in firefighters? The cut in nightshifts where twice as many people die from fires? Firefighters being trained as paramedics and so being called out instead of paramedics? |
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i slipped into student humour for a second there, sorry. It must have something to do with the fact that I was a student. That same criticism could not be placed against 99.5% of your beloved firemen, however. |
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Why do you view yourself and students so highly? Most students I've met are fucking dumbasses. They just think they're smart. |
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'what do you think of the proposed 10,000 cut in firefighters?' - I don't know how feasible it is, but the army seem to be doing ok with far less than that. The cut in nightshifts where twice as many people die from fires? - More deaths occur during this time because it take far longer for fires to be detected, as most people are asleep... not because there aren't enough firemen to save them! Firefighters being trained as paramedics and so being called out instead of paramedics? - it seems reasonable to expect firemen to have some medical knowledge, just incase they need it, the more the better... I don't think they should or could be used instead of paramedics |
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No, despite his affluent background he is putting himself through uni and has considerable debts, he is relying on his job being well paid when gets out of uni to get out of the debt. Not all people who succeed had it easy- my mother is a headteacher, yet she had a hard childhood and was raised in foster homes. I also know businessmen form working class backgrounds who have succeded through ahrd work. The joint control rooms make perfect sense. Fireman are against them due to the associated layoffs rather than a loss in quality of service. Combined control rooms would save money and improve response times... it is simply illogical to keep them seperate. Okay, so a few hundred people across the country will lose their jobs, but why should people (the public- that's you and I) pay people to do something unnecessary? |
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Yes, but calls have dropped during the strike, as they did during the last strike. People realise the situation and don't call for non-emergencies or if they have got their head stuck in fences etc. Yes, granted. But during such a time it is not wise to have LESS fireman on duty surely. They already have a lot of medical knowledge but training them to the level of paramedics is just stretching the job of one emergency service, rather than utilizing the two. |
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Jonesy - I am 100% against selling our public services to private companies. However I am 100% for using everything at our disposal to bring about the improvements that we need to see. Including (if necessary) job cuts, changed work patterns, and joint control rooms! Which one of those is privatisation? |
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I'd say those people are the exceptions rather than the rule. Most people would concede there is a link between poverty, unemployment, social deprivation and poor housing and underachievement. But your mate is not the issue here and his view, with all due respect, displays ignorance. |
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I agree that lots of students are neither intelligent, hard working or useful. However, many are. I hate the (predominantley working class) view that all graduates are, lazy, drunkards, lack common sense and are idealists without as shred of pragmatism about them. A guy on a train noticed I was a student and asked if I was a student (because I was reading!), when I replied in the affirmative he launched into a tirade about how all the graduates who went into the navy (where he worked), went straight in as officers, had all the breaks in life, were "clever" but lacked common sense and were crap at manual labour. It was with a degree of smugness that I pointed out my brother went straight from school into the navy and despite lacking a university education proceeded to consistantly get top of the year (of 200 students) in the officer training school. |
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Calls have dropped, but not by that much... even the firefighters concede that the army has done a good job... not ideal... but good. Well by that arguement we should have all of the firemen on duty all of the time... just in case! - The shift patterns and level of cover are worked out using the average level of cover needed... OBVIOUSLY!! So it does seem VERY reasonable to me that if, on average, they require less firemen on the night shift than the day, then that is what should happen. The army has just announced that it will be increasing its numbers during the midday to midnight shift during the next strike, because that is when they recieve the most call outs. The fireservice aren't that flexible. |
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And I take offence when people assume I'm rubbish at practical work simply because I have a formal education- I can weld, do forge work, basic mechanics, paint and decorate, move furniture (without breaking it!), intricate woodwork (hidden dovetail joints etc.) I can build PCs, networks, databases, program I'm also strong and healthy. When I worked as a labourer I had a reputation as a fast efficient worker. I don't treat people with contempt because they lack an education. I just wish people would show me the same couresty... |
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Because people who go on to further education always will be the highest paid and have the most infuence on society. What benefit is there in rewarding the thick who are prepared to die every day for a wage packet. What is that saying about our society? Education is the foundation of society. There is a hierarchical structure. It's like this - 1. Do well in school 2. Do well in further education 3. Get a well-paid job. 1. Do badly at school. 2. Don't do further education 3. Get a shit job where you have to risk your neck every day. 4. Go on strike and use the imagery of dead work-mates to try and get a ridiculous pay-rise. And don't chuck that fucking Richard Branson argument at me. For every richard Branson I could show you a million bums. |
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Lots of people (often because the lack an education) don't understand or cannot grasp exactly what is that well paid people do. The popular image is of the boss who sits in his office doing nothing all day whilst the workers work to the bone is a popular- although overused one- however, usually, people get paid more because they do a job that few other people could. Besides, surely the better educated (due to the fact they are, after all, educated) are in a better position to decide who deserves what? |
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I think its dangerous to assume that those that have more certificates for learning are better equiped to make decisions that affect everybody... (didnt you see the simpsons episode where the clever people took over?!) Everyone is capable of having an opinion on an issue, and everyones opinion should be valued. |
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Fire strike crumbles THE fire union caved in last night and ditched the eight-day strike due to start tomorrow. The sensational move was a clear sign that militant leader Andy Gilchrist knew he was losing public support. He and other heads of the Fire Brigades Union agreed to hand their monster 40 per cent pay claim to arbitration service ACAS for a ruling. A tense four-hour meeting of the FBU national executive ended with them blinking first in the bitter stand-off with employers. Mr Gilchrist — who only days earlier threatened a series of four-week walkouts — was urged by the executive to rein in his 52,000 strikers. Polls have shown a wave of sympathy for soldiers, sailors and airmen on lower pay who have surrendered leave to stand in for the strikers. They include war heroes who have not seen their families since returning from service in the Balkans or Afghanistan. Relieved military commanders were last night drawing up plans to give the troops a Christmas break with their families. However, the FBU said that another eight-day strike — from December 16 to Christmas Eve — would go ahead if talks fail to reach a settlement in the next two weeks. The arbitration move came after the union and local authority employers signalled they were ready to meet ACAS chairman Rita Donaghy. Mr Gilchrist, the FBU general secretary, said: “These will be exploratory talks but we have always said we are prepared to talk.” He said the Government should not regard the union’s decision as an act of surrender. Good. |
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For some one as intelligent as yourself, I'm surprised you cut n' paste from the Sun newspaper. |
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Hah! I don't read newspapers anymore but I looked at that and 'ting!' The Sun registered. 'militant leader Andy Gilchrist' Nuff said like. Spinyspinspin. |
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I wasn't refering to intellectual academics running the coutnry- just that people who are better informed/educated are in a position to make decisions rather than someone without any level of education. Jonesy: Nothing wrong with cut 'n paste- look at hip hop and even DJ shadow ;) |
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Yeah, but its all about what you sample. |
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Just the first paper that sprung to mind. Doesn't mean it's not the truth. |
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Very good :) Bill: Yes, true- it would be as foolish to dismiss everything a newspaper says simply because it is a) the media and b) a tabloid, as it is to blindly believe all you read in the press. Saying thing like, "their monster 40 per cent pay claim" hardly maes you want to believe it's objective journalism though... |
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Well, if you trust the Sun's reporting... I was merely pointing out that for someone who's self-conception is that of an educated, intelligent professional who peers down on moronic manual workers, you surprise me with your choice of news source. |
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Dude, The Sun has to be taken with a pinch of salt. The Sun is all about Spin, posh n becks and tits. If someone is homosexual it's a massive scandal to those guys. The Sun is not fit for toilet paper. The mainstream media in this country are never reliable and a lot of the time you can smell how they are trying to sway you. I'm going off the point *zips his muzzle close* |
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No, you're right Spikee. The Sun is a reactionary rag that I wouldn't wipe my dog's arse with. |
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But it's a foolish to say *everything* in it is untrue simply because it's the Sun. Poor quality/taste aside, some of the stuff it reports is true, some isn't. Sun- Newspaper of choice for pub quiz setters, labourers and builders. |
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Its not necessarily about its 'truth factor', more its political agenda and that it doesn't look beneath the surface of things. There is no analysis of world events whatsoever. It saddens me that its the best selling newspaper in the UK. |
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I find that comment to be just a smidgeon arrogant. And I'm not getting into a debate about the pro's and con's of the Sun. I do like Jakki Deggs, though. |
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I like to go to The Mirror's web site to read Victor Lewis Smiths views. |
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Arrogant? This coming from someone who labels firemen uneducated morons and graduates as the driving force of a progressive society. |
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Have I said anything that's untrue? |
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I know this is aimed at Bill H. but I would like to point out I don't think fireman are uneducated morons. As I said earlier, if the starting wage goes up to £30,000 I'll give joining up serious consideration when I graduate... |
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I like to dip my toe into the Sun now and again to see what the hoi polloi are being told to think. Then I can modify my behaviour and attitudes accordingly so that I can interact with them at the weekend. |
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Is anyone suprised that the firemen caved... Jonesy? |
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So if that's what 'they' think, what do you think? Where do you get your opinions, views and ideas from? they can't be wholly original, surely. |
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Its important to know what the most popular news paper in this country is saying... whatever you think of the journalism... it is still the most popular paper and therefore has an influence on a large section of the populous. Thats why it is always shown at the end of newsnight, and other such programs. |
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They didn't 'cave' as you put it. They accepted an offer to negotiate via ACAS. Despite the protestations of the right wing press and the government, they've been committed to negotiations all along. It was the government who got Bain in (their man); it was the government who vetoed the employer's and FBU's agreement. At the end of the day, they want the pay rise they deserve and they deem this as the best way to achieve it. I don't agreee that it is but I don't view it as 'caving in'. |
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That is true, but it was posted as news, not a representation of news. It was neither referenced nor referred to as the Sun's interpretation of events. |
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I think that at this late stage in our evolution there is very rarely truly original thought. |
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Yes, very true. It's important to know what the masses think. |
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I don't think that we need to start properly referencing things that are posted here... I knew it was an article, which means that it more than likely has a political bias. It doesn't matter to me which paper it came from, I judge it on the apparent facts, and the apparent political bias... |
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What about Gilchrist's threat to try and destroy new labour? Is that true or am I just being lied to by the tabloid media. Should I buy a nice quality paper like the guardian to learn the truth? Tell me please jonesy |
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His attack on New Labour was not a threat to destroy it. Now you're getting carried away and using the language of the Sun. He attacked New Labour's neo-liberal agenda and support of US imperialism. Which is fair enough. He was merely pointing out that the government say they cannot afford a pay rise for the firefighters and other public sector workers yet Gordon Brown has set aside £1billion for a war on Iraq. That is not going beyond the remit of a union leader. |
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http://politics.guardian.co.uk/unions/story/0,12189,851614, 00.html Read it and apolgise jonesy, you sad deluded fool. |
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If we go to war with Iraq, and as a result soliders can't cover, the government will probably pass an emergency law making it illegal for fire fighters to strike. You would also hope that in time of war people would not strike. That said, I'd hate to see the country go to war for the above reason although I don't think that would happen. |
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A WAR with Iraq? It's not going to be a war. A war is when you have two sides fighting. This is going to be genocide. |
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Jesus!!! Relax people... there is going to be no war... trust me! There are already laws in place that could have been used to stop the firefighters striking, but they weren't needed. The army handled things well, and even if we do send some troops into Iraq, it is unlikely to be a protracted conflict invloving thousands of British troops. We tend to leave it to the US to provide the cannon fodder these days. |
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