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i havent read all the gumpf in the thread mainly cos i just woke up, but i know i cant justify eating meat in anyway other than me liking it. but i do think its good to know where it comes from. me not eating meat would not save any animals any cruelty, its merely more myself washing my hands of it all, it would take everyone not eating meat to stop that and we all know none of us are brave enough to try that, because one of us might stop but then someone else might not and we dont trust other people so why risk it hehe anyhow i was veggie for a bit untill i realised i cant live without sausage rolls |
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hahah oh, well.. his conclusion was unconclusive anyway... people live perfectly well both with and without meat. |
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still not accounting for the qualitative part of it. and people who eat meat don't disagree that animals should be handled in a humane way, but the solution to that, as someone probably has already said in the thread, isn't necessarily not eating meat, but rather choosing which meat to eat; from which.. meat company one buys ones meat and boycotting the "bad" companies. |
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= making an informed choice as to which meat one should eat. that will also be the title of my latest track. |
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Not saying that. Jesus, you're free to worship THE GOD OF RAPE for all I care. Just the fact that there's a lot of energy being put into propaganda and misinformation from organizations like PETA pisses me off. Also, soya tastes like shit! |
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Yeah, ecological meat is sound! |
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who wants ecological meat when you could have economical meat.. .. right , right? screw taste hand me the change.. |
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Dunk my heart in a vat of lard It's gettin' all crispy and it's gettin' all hard Deep-fried love . . . come on, give me the grease! Shove that hamburger down your throat Pass the ketchup, I can, I won't, I don't |
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I am going to force my pro meat agenda down the throats of citizens! :D!!! Annual BBQ's! |
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(im a veggie) i'd never be arsed to buy biologically made meat, i think it's the government's responsibility to fight travesties like these. im a consumer, i want to buy things cheap; my piece of meat 2 euro more expensive, i wouldnt even notice the difference, maybe buy smaller pieces. biological farmers in holland just didnt make enough money because the consumer will keep going for the least expensive meat. |
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I actually agrree, meat is murrderr. I'll still eat it though. I just choose not to think about it, and my conscience is prretty ok with it. |
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My dad worrked in a slaughterrhouse when he was youngerr, he didn't like it. |
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Soya probably tastes awright when you're starving to death. Let's get a few things straight, i don't for one minute think that vegetarianism should be some militant crusade, or that it's going to change the world one iota, and i can't fucking stand "heartwrenching" voiceovers like that baldwin knob's. PETA-style emotional manipulation irks me. But. That doesn't change my opinion of the meat industry. Even cutting out the emotional angle, it wastes a lot of land, it's most often non-union and grossly underpaid, the safety regulations in place are a bureaucratic, unpoliceable mess (that's job safety AND product safety, tasty reconstituted cowshit in your pie etc)... meh, it's still up to you. I don't give a fuck what you eat. |
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Yeah, but I think us humans waste the planet enough already so it's already a lost cause for me! |
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Of all sexual perversions, the strangest is chastity. |
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linguistic evidence: mmmmmmmmmmmmeat ssssssssssssssalad which one sounds more like a snake? |
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I have been a vegetarian my hole life and as a result been healthy and less sick than other meat-eating people in my surroundings. |
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You'll have to pry the sushi from my cold dead hands. PS: nuke the world |
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tell you what : we can argue,chat, agree and disagree. and at the end of a day im going to eat meat, you are going to eat veggies, the both of us will drink a pint, then go to bed, and thats pretty much it. so whats the problem. |
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Vegan since 1993. |
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I am going to increase meat intake to make up for you veggies. :D lol |
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the problem is that I'M RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!! |
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so, what do you eat on a daily basis ? |
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Vegetarianism is healthier in most regards. This can be proved by the cancer and heart disease rates in countries that eat little or no meat. These diseases are the biggest preventable self-induced causes of death in meat-eating western societies. Someone in this thread said that iron is only in meat. Spinach for example has more iron-per-calorie than most meat. People say that it is more difficult to get protein sources for a vegetarian/vegan diet. That's probably true, simply because of the lesser availability of meat-alternative foods in countries where meat is consumed in high amounts. But it is very difficult to get a protein deficiency. Eating 2000 calories a day of any food will likely yield enough protein. The only nutrient that a human needs that's not in plants is B12. I think that it is crucial to eat some type of animal products to get B12, or take a supplement, but that one exception doesn't mean that you need to eat loads of meat just because of the taste. People here were trying to point out that humans are biologically meant to eat meat, because of incisor teeth, but some vegetarian animals have similar teeth to humans, chimpanzees for example. Also, the human intestine is a herbivore type; long and winding with many wrinkles and crevices to absorb nutrients and pass waste through slowly, requiring lots of plant fiber to function. Carnivore intestines on the other hand are short, smooth and chute-like in order to expel the added toxins of a meat diet quickly, they also require no fiber to function. Even omnivores like bears have carnivore intestines. Your diet is a personal choice, and there advantages and disadvantages to most diets. There are many moral reasons to not eat meat, and I can't think of a single one supporting it. I do think that most vegetarians shouldn't be zealous and haughty, and should focus their energy on saving human lives, and abstain from eating meat as a personal choice, still acknowledging that their diet is part of that effort. |
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It is precisely because of the fact that humans have been eating meat for millions of years that we even have the ability to question the morality of eating meat. You see, the complex proteins we get from eating meat have allowed humans to evolve large brains and subsequently the capacity for rational thought. I find it ironic. |
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I was a vegetarian for a long time, I stopped because my dick was getting smaller, and I had no spine. I was too passive. I wasn`t eating right so thats why it didnt work |
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i totally agree with you -- it's the distancing that our lifestyle, culture and media put in between us and certain realities (for example those of poverty, violence, mistreatment of women, horrific food production conditions, dangers of war, etc.) that makes it so easy not to actually _feel_ something emotionally about it, and to be able to sit at a laptop and be flippantly sarcastic about it instead. not that i don't do that sometimes, but it can just be really hard to actually connect to some of those issues first-hand if you're in a certain environment. it's pretty scary to me. :( |
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Evolume: I would be willing to bet that only some groups humans have been eating meat consistently for millions of years. Some cultures, such as Indian, have abstained from eating meat for most, if not all of their recorded history and are no less brain power than long-time meat eaters. The cultures that have been known to eat lots of meat have done so out of necessity, and it's difficult to attribute mental traits to the foods one eats. A vegetarian primate can't really be proven to be more intelligent than a carnivore wolf. They have evolved different intelligences, and one isn't necessarily more advanced than the other. But I would think that the seemingly-always herbivore primates are closer to having a capacity for rational thought and a sense of morality than any carnivore animal with a comparable level of measurable intelligence. One could make the argument that the development of a controlled agricultural society developed man's intelligence more than the practice of hunting/gathering. If a tribe of Neanderthals bands together to make a society based around crop cultivation, then they are forced to evolve more civilized behaviors, rather than relying on primal hunting instincts. The process of killing an animal and eating it seems to be a much easier concept for a primitive person to grasp than the process of planting crops, tending to them and cultivating.. not even taking into account the gradual social and mental adaptations that these early humans needed to make for such a change in group behavior. |
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i forgot to point out that hunter/gatherer societies were nomadic, while later agrarian societies obviously stayed in one place, resulting in cities, more widely-used languages, economies etc. |
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have abstained from eating meat for most, if not all of their recorded history and are no less brain power than long-time meat eaters. notice that evolution occured millions of years before a concept as "recorded history" was ever even concieved. I respectfully disagree with this "crop cultivation, then they are forced to evolve more civilized behaviors" idea. It goes both ways. I can make points that hunting for fast/large animals required humans to form more complex hunting tools and war-like strategies. |
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Good point. I agree with you to some extent, but, I'm talking here about millions of years of human evolution. The Indian culture, at least since they stopped eating meat, is really only measurable in the scale of thousands of years, a virtual blink of the eye in human evolution. In other words, Indian recorded history is no where near the 'millions of years' time scale. But, yes, I agree that farming allowed cultures to stay put, and build tight knit societies. Again though, the switch from nomadic tribes of people to organized cultures happened in the last several thousands of years. I would argue that it was only possible because humans had developed the ability to communicate, think logically and rationally etc as a result of their meat eating evolution. whether that necessarily justifies eating meat or not, I don't know. In my opinion, for the majority of the evolution of homo sapiens, something like 10-20 million years, we have been meat eaters (well omnivores which is an important distinction), and maybe we are just now coming to a point where it isn't necessary anymore, but I don't think it is unhealthy in moderation since we are obviously the product of meat eating evolution. |
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yeah, that's what i'm saying. I am reminded of 2001 space odessy. that first primate that picked up a bone and used it as a weapon, being the first primate to use tools and subsequently the first to start killing and eating animals. This led to innovation in weapon design (sharp rock on the end of a bone), communication (getting all you monkey friends to also carry sharp rocks on bones), hunting strategies (monkey friends learing to corrale food), warfare (killing off other monkeys that be stupider) etc.. etc.. |
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long posts are wrong |
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i want to be one of the thoughest posters. it's a pipe dream i know. |
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Statistics generated at: October 15, 2005, 2:51 pm (CST) Messages total 1734175 (509) Topics total 81445 Messages per topic 21.29 Messages per day 1031.63 Highest day 2004-05-20 2630 Thoughest posters User Number of characters tolstoyed 4059787 qrter 3757019 Ophecks 3673751 Ceri JC 3583242 nacmat 3062905 uzim 2860215 virginpusher 2746860 titsworth 2725750 ecnadniarb 2664138 w M w 2454443 |
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when i play in computer games i allways have to collect wood,stones,and food,represented by CHUNKS of MEAT. i think that creators of pc games know better than all you silly vegettarians out here,so LETS EAT what nature gave us. *bites into raw steak* |
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weatheredstoner: People who have studied human evolution have found that the addition of high levels of protein to human's diets resulted in the latest of evolutionary changes in terms of the human brain, and the addition of meat helped to develop the frontal lobe portion of the brain which creates most of the mental difference between humans and lesser primates. however, we can't be entirely certain that all humans have eaten meat for millions of years and that only meat proteins caused the aforementioned advancements of reason and morality, simply because we have incisor teeth and currently eat meat. Certain societies have cultivated protein-rich plants for longer than recorded history, and who's to say that these proteins couldn't have evolved their brains to the extent that animal proteins would/did? For example a tribe of full-protein soybean-eating people would theoretically undergo the same mental evolutionary changes as meat-eaters. I was mainly disputing Evolume's statement that only eating meat gave humans the heightened ability to rationalize and have a sense of morality. I agree that eating meat made humans evolve a certain way as any change of diet would, but it is difficult to attribute which type of food did what and whether an omnivorous or herbivorous diet came first in our evolutionary devopment. It would seem to me that a carnivorous diet would result in physical advancements moreso than mental, which would explain the overall lack of physical burliness (not intelligence) of certain people who have been historically known to eat little or no meat. But it is difficult to know when (or possibly, if) these people had eaten meat in their evolutionary past. It would seem that different foods gave different traits, but it's basically irrelevant now because most have access to many different types of foods and can choose to have many different diets of varying healthiness with foods that give all necessary nutrients/elements. I'll shut the hell up now. |
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I guess much of what I just said can be applied to evolume's reply. I'll stop debating because I don't know all that much about human evolution even given the seemingly largely speculative nature of it, and I'll end up making a gigantic ass of myself by making too many uneducated assumptions. |
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Walking in the woods really is murder. |
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I think morals come from humans wanting to control other humans, not so much a reflection diet, imo In any case, eat what your body craves. Moderation people. |
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Only humans are able to feel bad for their prey. I guess that's what I meant.. I guess mean a sense of right/wrong and an abilty to put yourself in someone else's shoes. I'll shut up now for good. |
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You're ahead to titsworth now, few days ago you wasn't, Goran is at the top though.. :) |
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whether morals can/should even be applied to animals who are not moral creatures... that's interesting. is morality a two-way street? is it just imagined anyway? just a product of higher evolution as self preservation? Like, a vegitarian wouldn't eat shark or wolf or pig, but all of these critters wouldn't think twice about eating a vegitarian. they might actually prefer to eat the vegitarian. |
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blrblrblrklkrb |
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Naked in running shoes, with chainsaw, door to door. And then I stop for a nice salad to reset my karma. |
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therre arre 2 ways to achieve that, the Ceri JC and the qrter way. |
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I worked at an abatoir and stopped eating meat soon after, I just don't want it anymore, I've tried eating it and I just ended up throwing it back up, and it's all mental. |
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"is morality a two-way street? is it just imagined anyway? just a product of higher evolution as self preservation?" I think you hit the nail right on the head. |
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