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sorry but in what instance has man affected a foxes envir' to the point that a fox has no prey? thats a weak argument. and i wasnt refering to the fox getting into an industrial sized chuck farm type place, i meant like little old mrs jones chicken shed where she keeps 12 birds that all end up with their heads ripped off while fox loxy runs away with one chicken for dinner. and yeah i shot ruppus (my dog), did you not read of mice and men at school? |
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humans are s'posed to eat meat, plain and simple. it is so absurd how proper nutrition has turned into an ethical dilemma. why else would you have to try so hard and pay so much attention to your diet in order to remain properly nourished on a vegetarian diet? certainly we don't need to eat as much meat as we do (well, americans at least), but keeping a few servings of fish and chicken in your diet is going to leave you feeling a lot better than relying on alternate sources of protein like soy which your body can hardly even absorb anyway. maybe if we'd reestablish a self-sufficient society, where people aren't so disconnected from the process that things like food get to them that when they find out how it gets to them ("omg! chicken is.... dead chickens?!") it isn't a life shattering event, then people would stop being so goddamn polarized and realize moderation is key. oh, and peta kills the majority of animals in its care. ethical treatment indeed, like green peace they're a bunch of fucking terrorists (yes, they are attempting to get their way through fear, that is terrorism) who give ecological progressives a bad name and only so as far as to further polarize people on controversial subject which has no business being controversial in the first place. |
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yes, i don't think humans are "s'posed" to do anything, that's an argument from design (whether natural or supernatural). Humans make of their lives what they see fit, trying to make of themselves a more conscientious ethical agent, which includes following self-imposed guidelines that either minimize suffering or maximize personal happiness and well-being, or both. It is surprising how flexible human diets can be, just look at all the societies with limited access to different ingredients. Today, with ample access to cheap and copious resources, I don't see any problem with alternative lifestyles, except that it makes people really uncomfortable, which is hardly anybody's fault. |
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vegetarianism and veganism sounds great. it takes a lot of discipline to pull that diet off, which is good for self control, something everyone surely needs a little bit of. when i eat too much meat i often feel bloated. a plant diet i imagine is not as heavy on the stomach. there is an excellent scene in the film where a girl is surrounded by a bunch of disiulisioned meat eaters during a meal. i suggest you see it. at least for what i think is a good honest account of a plant eater. |
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Gingaling, whether a fox gets into a large-scale coup or a small one, it still means the chickens are confined to a small building that it would be difficult for them to escape from. And of course if you get a bunch of ckickens together, foxes will be attracted. I don 't know what you want me to say about the fact that they kill most chickens and only take a few... that's just practical restrictions of the fox, I guess. And its nature, like your dog, as you said before. Humans kill far more of their own species, anyway. And in exactly the same way- accidentally and unnecessarily. Take USA in the Iraq War, for example. hed, I see what you mean- everything in moderation. That's why I am confused as to why you have such a knee-jerk reaction to vegetarianism. It is not an extreme measure to stop eating meat completely- you seem to focus on the physcial benefits and detrimental parts of eating meat. But what about mental approaches? Cave men ate meat, because they lacked the cognitive capacity to consider whether individuals thought it to be morally correct or not. This is the 'it's natural' argument. So does this then mean that we should do everyhting classed as natural? if yes, then why do we wear synthetically produced fibres in our clothing, man-made housing? It goes against people's consciences as I said before to eat meat. It is only half the argument to say that it is physically better for you to eat a little meat. What use would it be to do our bodies good by eating a little meat, if our minds are repulsed by it and tell our bodies to vomit it out? And it is not only America that gorges itself on meat- it is a massive problem for Britain, too. Obesity is almost as big here as it is there, as we are two world powers. If people ate as mcuh meat as you say you do, I woudln';t ahve this argument. But as it stands, it has many detrimental effect on people's health. That which you say on reestablishing a self-sufficient society is good though- it is unliklely of course but it would be good. |
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Tractern... |
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Yeah, I thought about it after posting that and there are times when hunting for sport can be a necessary measure. I love mammals, reptiles, insects... I love animals, always have. It actually hurts me emotionally to harm them for no reason (aka "sport"). As I've said, I have lived off wild fish on camping trips before, and aside from the unpleasantness of gutting and cleaning them, I found the experience, and the taste, to be wonderful. I think there's some primal instinct fulfilled when you eat off the land instead of the super market. |
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Thanks kindly for the avatar and the words of agreement, FlyAgaric. it is nice to know a couple of people sympathise with my ethical oulook on and shit. =) Zephyr, it is good to know that you think about what you're doing when killing animals. However, I am Buddhist, and though I don't agree with everyhting in this set of precepts, it states that to eat a killed animal is okay, but to kill one yourself is bad. And I agree with this. Overall though, I guess the primal urge to kill your own food is one that I acknowledge, thoughdon't necessarily condone. I am just pleased people are willing to met me half way. ^^ It goes along with what was said by hedphukker before about society understanding what it took for the animals it ate to be killed. Therefore thanks for your provocative input. |
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hey, no problem. although, i must admit i did not read most of what you wrote. re: fish i was a bit harsh. i have need a need to justify my enjoyment of fishing, i guess. mostly i enjoy the excursion more than the fishing itself. my knowledge of the fish experience is quite limited. i was watching animal planet and they had these wonderful marine fish, called wolfmilfs or something, who are super social. they go up to divers and seem to love human contact (scientists say human contact doesn't harm them, as with other marine fish). the guy was scratching it like a dog. ugly buggers too, big faces, huge molars, long thin body. beautiful in an ugly way. ugly in beautiful way, whatever. anyway, i was watching that and it touched me, reminding me what i said on here about fish. with trout and bass however, *steve zissou voice* i have yet to see any signs of intelligence from them. |
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tractor your phread are shite |
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Not as bad as your spelling and grammar, friend! =) |
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I am a vegan. If anyone is interested in anything about it I can answer some questions. I'm no rabbit, but I have done some research and know some good things about the diet. Though as I am writing this I seem to be partially choking on a nut brb water ... |
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seems earth is a big mistake so much suffering for life right now trillions of creatures are being eaten alive. we humans have a unique ability to see this and one day we will have control over the very fabric of space, so i hope future leaders and people make it there goal to rid the world of unnecessary suffering. so that every lifeform can live a wonderful life. millions of years away of course. but wow what a dream for everyone. |
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they're going to have a hard time persuading the lions to become vegetarians. though wouldn't it be great to hang out with lions without the fear of being eaten, |
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2 things every vegan/vegetarian needs to eat. and Both can be bought very cheaply , search bulk food places or health food stores, if your screwed I can send you bag of Quinoa for like 4 bucks and it's last you a long time! Quinoa is a complete protein. Hemp has some complete protein properties , but it shines in the amino acid department. Easy to make too. Like 5 minutes. Broccoli is really good to get tons of other stuff you need. If you are Vegan and you get bruised, eat shit loads of broccoli for a week. |
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meat ingestion was crucial in human being´s evolution I like meat also |
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Cool- I'll look out for quinoa and hemp next time I go to Holland and Barrett. Thanks oxygenfad! =) What's the point in saying that we used to do anything? We used to pick bugs out of each others hair and eat them... you think we should still do this? Humans have evolved to a level now that we can easily find stuff to replace meat if we like. I find this point moot. Also, I respect the right of others to eat meat. |
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"meat ingestion was crucial in human being´s evolution" So was rape and feeding christians to lions ;P |
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im a herbivore i found out after my purchase that the glue holding my monitor plastic together is made from melted down horses ,so im vegan in intent. |
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? glue doesnt have anything to do with food. besides, its not like they use live horses or anything. |
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lol, maybe its behavior because her shirt is the color of water and her hair waved like a fish. |
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The biology of humans is too complex to be subject to such a simple theory. Interesting, though. You can anlyse the hell of people that would calls themselves "ethical". At the end of the day, they are just doing what they feel is right and doing the least harm to the planet and its inhabitants. Therefore, whatever you say, you are just advocating the grdual destruction of the planet. Obviously, I benefit from the raping of the planet too, but I try to minimise my personal negative imapct of it. |
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basically you're a pussy if you're a vegitarian/vegan and you're manly if you eat meat. That's what it's all about, and money. I sympathize when i read this thread, no being should have to struggle, but animals eat other animals too, it's not like humans are the only ones. At least we're not cannibals like other animals are. Life is a struggle though, we're all part of it, every living thing, sentient or not. I'm too weak minded to be a vegan i always keep switching back to eating meat sooner or later.. |
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i don't know which is funnier - vegans vs. meat eaters, or xltronic actually trying to have a conversation about this |
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the 'sancity of life' idea - of any species - is litte more than a by-product of religious fervour. be vegetarian, sure, i'm all for it from an economic viewpoint. i adhere to it myself. living off meat is far too expensive for what minor advantages it provides. more importantly, if we continue with the western rate of consumption, it will mean the end of humanity. even that is common sense these days. don't be fooled, however, into thinking that saving humanity is any kind of higher calling. the world will still be here in some shape or form long after we are gone. :) |
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w.t.f. are you saying. how is the consumption of meat going to destroy our species? (at the western rate). |
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think outside the square on that one. |
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cool sentence bro. |
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i guess you're right. I always thought humans have been meat eaters since prehistoric times. site was helpful. |
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now a question: would those here that are vegans/vegetarians for reasons of animal cruelty eat an animal if it were the only means for survival, like if you were captured by some criminals and fed only meat? |
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That site is so ridiculously biased it's not even funny. For starters, they barely even mention that there is a middle-ground between carnivores and herbivores, called omnivores. I'm not even going to waste my time picking apart each of the points on that page. Do some more research and you'll see how misleading and purposefully ignorant that site is. The gaps in logic are abundant and astounding. To cite one example, according to that site, all humans find raw flesh disgusting... Um, no? (Sushi, anyone?) Human beings have always been meat eaters, or more precisely, omnivores. We didn't evolve canine teeth and forward-looking binocular vision to farm tomatoes. That we as a culture have moved to cooked foods does not mean that our stomachs weren't at one point perfectly capable of digesting raw meat. There is as much argument for humans being herbivores as there is for them being carnivores. What does this mean? It means we are omnivores and can eat both meat and vegetation. General rule of thumb (but not a catch-all): Prey species have eyes on the sides of their heads to watch for predators, predators have forward-looking vision to better pinpoint prey. Early man survived largely off of hunting mastodons and other large ice-age mammals. If we weren't designed to eat them, then why are we still here? Surely we should have all died off due to improper nutrition? |
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I'm not getting in this argument, because I quite frankly don't care, but that website seems bloody awful! "If you look at the chicken and vulture (carnivores), these animals eat just about everything and notice how unhealthy these animals look. The Chinese believe that the chi or life force in your body is less when you consume meat and so do the Indians with their ancient yogic principles, their life force was called prana. The great Tai Chi masters of China were adept at preserving their chi, even if some of the masters were not vegetarians, they still had a balanced diet. It has now been scientifically proven that a balanced vegetarian diet is better compared to a diet that is taken with meat." Is this website supposed to be serious, or a flaccid joke? |
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It's incredible how many times is employed throughout that page. |
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I'm sorry, i'm just confused about why the correct choice of consumption hasn't been established clearly up to this point in human evolution. So it's not a right or wrong type of thing, or correct or incorrect, it's more like a choice with strings attatched? Meaning that eatinga balanced veggie/meat diet as opposed to eating a strictly vegan diet is the ideal diet? I JUST WANT TO BE HAPPY BOUT WHAT I EAT |
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thanks for that wiki page. |
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i'm not a vegetarian, but i eat animals who are. |
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Don't be sorry. There's nothing wrong with being inquisitive and wanting to learn. If anything, I should be sorry for getting too "involved" in this argument. Personally, I don't care which side people take, I just take issue with people from both sides misusing facts and employing logical fallacies in an attempt to prove their point. |
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a veggie elephant would kick any human meat eaters ass even the undertaker of WWE !# dont be fooled into thinking you need to eat meat to be big and strong !! tall? look at a freaking giraffe! fast? carl lewis was vegan when he won gold at the Olympics? clever >? Einstein was a veggetraian. philosophy= gandi was a veggie too. the multi nationals have programed our minds to make us think you need animal products to be healthy! its really not true. the only choise you need to make is that of compassion. or ...just go out into the wild and kill an animal if you really feel you need meat, why pay a company to do it for you? your paying fuked up psychos to do seriously evil work! whatever. |
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do you understand how hard it is to be a vegan when you don't have money all the time to buy expensive food to stay healthy on that type of diet? Especially in america where people are raised on red meat and meat in general..it's nearly redundant to try and be vegetarian when life expectancy is is 80 years all the while the masses dont kill their own food so therefore rely on those "multinationals" to just have something to eat everynight. Not to mention the lack of knowledge on the whole subject of animal cruelty and the fact that animals are bred for consumption. Most people just eat meat because it's what they've always done and they dont even think of meat as the live animal that it once was. Also there are starving people all over the world who would do anything to be able to eat ANYTHING. As i'm sure you would for survival. It's not like people want to be evil or hateful towards animals, but in today's world children are born into this society with a regulated produce industry. the world's a hellhole and nobody's doing or can do anything to correct it. Judging others is certainly not helping. |
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To get big while you are vegan you really need to eat a lot of wholesome type foods. Olive Oil helps a lot. It's debatable that Soy prevents the body from absorbing protein (search the web) so that is something to research. Also the general rule, to gain muscle mass is to "over feed" (eat a lot). Still eating tons of Quinoa and Hemp. Still a vegan going strong. I feel great everyday. It's a lot of work and not everybody can pull it off. |
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yes hemp oil is great, the best balance of omega 3 6 9 , better than olive oil. it takes 6 times the vegetation to feed a cow than it does to feed a human. and that cow will create how many portions? and what of the waste and the methane? so it is totally inificent ,secondry energy form the sun and cruel to lock them up in tight spaces ,to rape them of milk which was meant for the calves which will mosrt likely be slaughtered. its not the poor peoples fault, its the insane greed of the multi nationals and our ignorance to pay them ( support them ) in their evil business fk em . grow veggies. |
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i've been thinking more and more about how i eat meat in the last few years, trying to be more conscious of the fact that i am eating an animal and that there should be some responsibility on my part. i still think it is ok to eat meat, (natural etc..) but i don't think we need to eat it as much as we do. there is not a reason to eat meat 2 or 3 times a day, and not even really everyday. we might act differently if we had to put an animal down ourselves in order to eat it, but we don't so it is out of site out of mind and we just eat it casually, which leads to high demand, factory farms, etc. so i am just trying to cut back, eat red meat less (for health reasons also), use more cheese and eggs instead of actual meat sometimes, or just not use anything from an animal for a meal. |
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I havent read a word from this thread but I'm a vegetarian and I Like it. |
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i'm a vegetarian and my breath smells |
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Thanks for the empathy, pulseclock. :) It is god to eat less meat- you don't have to call yourself a veggie or vegan, just eat whatever you want cos it makes you healthy and happy and don't give yourself a label. Some humans are cannibals, though, just like some animals are. |
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the world will still be here in some shape or form long after we are gone. Yeah, this is the conclusion I came to as well. It is the only thing which gives me any hope or comfort on the topic of humans impact on their environment. |
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haha! :D |
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We all agree to the killings. |
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lol, mmhmm! :) |
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