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 Now online (1)ijonspeches ...and 183 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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thank you plaidzebra. i've been having trouble keeping my words as straight forward and un-emotionally charged as possible. your poetic understanding is a relief. |
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well, i am implying, but i make no claim to proof. i do claim to be able to clearly illustrate why western thought is based on an explicitly irrational notion. |
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not all of western though, but a crucial barrier within it. we could go so far if this barrier would just crumble. |
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"confucius and you are both dreams, and i who say you are dreams am a dream myself. this is a paradox. tomorrow a wise man may explain it; that tomorrow will not be for ten thousand generations." chuang tse: II jupitah, i'm glad to hear your appreciation. the person who says, "i am totally awake," they are totally asleep! -osho we are here only to extend help to one another. we are each of us facets upon the face of the same gem. when you deny your brothers and sisters, you deny yourself. again, these statements i offer only that those who suffer might learn the relief. I have never been contained except I made the prison. -Mary Evans, actress (1888-1976) While we are asleep in this world, we are awake in another one. -Salvador Dali |
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the problem here lies in the belief that there is a singular moment.. . this pertains to creation rather than evolution.. . things are allways a gradual build to the moment.. . its not a matter of just switching it on.. . these are human terms.. . which is all conceptual and not logical.. . any singular moment may still be examined in stages.. . and the smaller those stages become the larger that 'moment' begins to seem.. . remembering that time is a gauge also invented by humans to link these 'moments' together. .. my writing is by now means fluid.. . I understand what Im typing but may not be able to convey it to you.. . nevermind. .. try and look at conciousness in terms of a computer program thats constantly running.. . and the user is not allways aware of the program.. . ever wondered why some things go unnoticed sometimes ? when the mind is ready and receptive things will be unncovered.. . perhaps some of those things were allways there also. .. |
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All things are concious on different levels. |
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the problem here lies in the belief that there is a singular moment.. . this pertains to creation rather than evolution.. . things are allways a gradual build to the moment.. Would you describe the events of your life as a result of gradual evolution or a series of turning points? |
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oh... I must just add that yeah I believe that there's a reason for every cause... Hmm... Hope you understand what I mean, when reading this and the previous post. |
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key secret: thats all a matter of perspective isnt it.. . those two things are essentially the same. .. hmm.. . yes.. . cause and effect.. . this can be applied to virtually everything.. . but it doesnt really help this topic much.. . perhaps you had a usage I didnt understand ? |
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With respect to the original question... It has been shown in various experiments (all of which are obviously subject to debate), that human conciousness is an emergent property of the complexity of the human brain. This tends to point to a continuum of conciousness. i.e. the more complex the system (or brain) the 'more concious' it is. This theory can be expanded and contracted to account for the 'unexpected' behaviour of nearly all complex systems. Including human society, ecosystems, ant colonies... etc etc. Did that make any sense? Its something that I have been interested in since University. Anyone read any Fijtof Capra? The Web of Life. The Toa of Physics. Hidden connections.... all very interesting books that look at the simlarities of systems, and what we can learn from them. |
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Without "turning points" as I mentioned them, in a way; there's just chaos... now you get my point? |
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lucky psycho, that's a contradiction. if consciousness is a product of the brain then its development cannot be contiuous. In in an individual, if the development or "complexification" of consciousness is continuous then there is no starting point and consciousness must have existed before the brain came to be. the brain is obviously the central focal volume of our consciousness but there is nothing that points to consciousness being "boxed" in the brain. one could say that density of complexity mighty correscpond with the coomplexity of consciousness, but where do you draw the line, what system is not complex enough to be conscious? it is continuous. |
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i'd like to suggest that your brain is an interface of consciousness, rather than the source of consciousness. as an electrochemical organ, memories and sensations *can* be caused to emerge through direct electric stimulation of the brain. indeed, memory loss is associated with damage to certain structures within the brain. nevertheless, the brain is not a container into which the memories are written. a brain cannot be "full," or run out of memory. the brain can, and will, "run out of time." the brain is the interface of consciousness with temporal phenomena, and so we see temporal limits within the brain. within the illusion of time and space, the brain is a tool of learning whereby we experience directly the consequences of our choices. we are expressed here for a purpose; the opportunity for transformation. |
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three words: super string theory |
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Jupitah, in your first hypothesis are you implying that genetics (or physical assembly as you like to call it) determines degree of consciousness? Most of what we know about biology is based on theory as you may already know. First, we assume that a central nervous system is necessary to experience. The degree of brain maturity defines the ability to allow memories, pain, emotion, thought etc. Many creatures do not posess a brain, or even a central nervous system (CNS). Many creatures, insects for example, literally have a "bundle" of neurons that are not regulated by any single specific body (e.g. brain). Many "lower" level creatures respond to their environment via "chemotaxis" - their body automatically responds to chemicals and other matter, both physical and non-physical (e.g. light, water). The problem with this theory - a few incredibly bizzare cases of human brain abnormalities have thrown a very fat wrench into years of theory. It seems that a VERY SMALL number of human cases (less than 10 if I recall) have been identified with merely a brain stem and no identifiable brain - yet they function normally and are said to be above average intelligence. (I can give you details if you like). Point being - we thought we had it figured out at one point. Truth is, its all still theory. I personally agree with your second hypothesis. (varying degrees of consciousness and experience). I like your style jupitah. It's nice to see somebody with some very profound thoughts. :) Keep it up. |
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why is the brain obviously the focal point of conciousness ? could it not simply be a receiver ? what about the soul ? or as I have learned.. . the energy body.. . the force encompasing the physical body.. . this could very well be the source of conciousness rather than the brain.. . conciousness could also be a continuous thing.. . passed down from mother to child as it were.. . if you yourself cant pinpoint the moment you became concious of your existence it could be very well be because you had yet to notice your conciousness.. . it could be sitting there until language had formed with which to discover it. .. |
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WOW!!! Alot of people have shared some excellent ideas! To think I spent so much time on other forums listening to little kids argue over Xbox and Playstation2 superiority ;) |
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Glitch - I totally agree. My background has always been science, so I tend to kind of stick to it. Have you ever heard of kirilian (can't remember the spelling) photography? This technique of energetic measurement might be the next huge step in proving that "souls" exist. Although, in the name of science, you may never see it published in an academic journal. THe more I research the subject, the more I begin to realize that the brain might not be the house of consciousness. Similarly, some philosophers have proposed that this everyday state of awareness that we experience might be akin to a higher level dream state. The degree to which a dream appears real during sleep might be similar to our so called "awake" life. There may be an even greater awakening beyond this level of consciousness (call it enlightenment, nirvana, heaven, another dimension etc.) |
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catharsis, i agree that the existence of functioning, anencephalic individuals is fascinating. i read about an individual in the uk just about 6-9 months ago with this, "condition." no detectable brain tissue, but they are actually functioning. with only spinal cord and brain stem!?!? how frequently do the experts say, "here is our theory, we excluded any anomalies because the theory can't explain them"? we see the distant past as primitive and ignorant, and our present as sophisticated and knowing. it's humbling and spurring to realize how far we have to go. |
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i saw a tv program about super string theory and the existence of alternate realities i cant even try and put it into a coherent sentence unless i'm extremely wasted on drugs |
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catharsis yes ! I have most definately heard of Kirlian photography.. . what you want to do is pick yourself up a book called "PSI : Psychic Discoveries Behind The Iron Curtain" by Sheila Ostrander & Lynn Schroeder.. . it was written back in the late 60's/early 70's by 2 american's that went to russia to learn of their experiments.. . its quite simply the most important book I have ever read.. . I dont know how easy the book would be to find.. . I found mine in an annual booksale we have here.. . my prints from '76.. . but I think they have reprinted it more recently than that.. . good luck. .. |
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oh but that's the ONLY and BEST way ;) of course, that's a bias on my behalf.. haha |
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When I was young, I thought the "adults" had figured it out. All those textbooks were scientific fact when I was younger. Now, I realize how much of the puzzle is missing, and the more I know, the more I realize I don't know. Plaidzebra, you couldn't have said it any better: "we see the distant past as primitive and ignorant, and our present as sophisticated and knowing. it's humbling and spurring to realize how far we have to go." In 10 years, we'll realize how stupid we were....and so on....and so on.... and so on............ |
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hehe expand yo miiiiind man it's all i can talk about when im wasted my mates tell me to shut up talking about ripples in space/time |
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Thanks Glitch. I'll be sure to check it out, and the string theory. You guys rock. |
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i'm sure i've figured out the meaning of life and how the universe was born and what it all means and then forgotten it strait away :) |
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well i dont think you should shut up! whenever you feel that you have a need to express, whether or not you think it might be useful, you should just write it all down :) it could be worth lots in the near future.. you never know unless you try :) |
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hehehe yeah, i like having 'big fat chats' at an afterparty i recon i should set up a microphone make good samples for tunes!!! |
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HAA!!! My friends and I have always suggested that we should record our discussions when stoned. I would assume that they are either very profound or incredibly stupid ;) |
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probly both |
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years ago, i had an extremely strange experience after ingesting a large quantity of mushrooms (approximately 5 grams dried). unknown to me, my close friend was having the same experience in the room next door. what occurred was something we had not discussed or anticipated. we met each other on the way to talk to the other, and as we freaked out at each other, "oh my god!" "what the fuck just happened?" "what's going on?" i started the tape recorder in the room. for several minutes we discussed what had happened, and then suddenly my friend said, "what are you talking about?" and then proceeded to go amnesiac about the entire episode. he would not believe me until i played him the tape. at the time i did not understand what had happened at all, and was totally unnerved by the experience, and worst of all, unnerved by the tape confirming at least the subjective but shared experience. so be careful what you tape! ; ) |
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or what you swallow |
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mushrooms have a nasty habit of making my blood sugar plummet. I can't even ingest 1 gram without having a "passout" episode. About 20 - 30 minutes after ingestion, I begin to get light headed and if I don't either sit down, or get some sugar in me quick, I fall over. 5 grams might put me into hypoglycemic shock.....too bad, probably be fun. |
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if you are familiar with the literature, you are aware that if you have correctly identified these mushrooms then you are extremely unlikely to be injured by ingesting them. these mushrooms have been used by humans for thousands of years. nevertheless, you must be prepared to accept the consequences of your choices. catharsis- i've never read about mushrooms producing a drop in blood sugar. i can't even imagine a mechanism by which that would occur. if you don't mind, how many times has this occurred? did you fast before consuming them? do any other foods cause a similar response? |
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catharsis, to be clear, my "possibility one" that i presented is not MY hypothesis. it is A hypothesis. my original purpose here was to demonstrate that this hypothesis implies that consciousness is supernatural. ironic isn't is? moderns/westerners denounce animism or anything of the sort as belief in the supernatural, when the opposite is true. so often i find that those who judge others are actually making a statement about theirself, a sort of fruedian slip (or maybe i use the term incorrectly). how many of the megaphone weilding fundamentalists condemning passing strangers as sinners were actually guilty of all their accusations? personally, i do not believe that anything is outside of nature. of the many realms of existence that i've experience, no matter how incredible or magical, none have struck me as being disconnected with this one. i have no reason to believe that magic is something that opposes the forces of physical nature and i have no reason to believe that consciousness is separate from nature. i have every reason to believe that consciousness is nature. no duality. einstein said something along the lines of... "one can see everything as miracle or nothing as miracle." i think either understanding could be true. why you would choose to experience life in absence of miracle i have no idea! i'm glad you found yourself here catharsis. |
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glitch, i didn't mean to imply that consciousness is the brain or is limited to the brain. i simply meant that the processes of conscoiusness are most explicitly manifest in the brain. i don't believe that the brain or physical reality is a product of consciousness or the soul (here me out please!) anymore than i believe that consciousness is a product of the brain. either way implies dualism to me. i believe that this that i am experiencing right now is the current manifestation of my soul. my body is not separate from my soul, not a mere product of my mind, but the current state of my soul. my soul is not separate in anyway from the spirit of my surroundings (that which is within my awareness is a part of me) or the spirit of anything in existence, yet my personal awareness unit is a condensation of consiousness into this body and this life that i am. i believe that we are continuous, flow into eachother, just as mother to child as you say. complete continuity, yet varying degrees of "consciousness density." |
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it seems that the weblike complex of our minds have something to with our identity. i cannot be certain, but i imagine that plants are less afflicted with the illusion of a separation between their self and their surroundings. it is as though they span the "natural" world with their body as an identification anchor of sorts. and maybe it is that in mystical and psychedelic states we take on a similar quality of experience, keeping the body as an anchor though less restricted by said illusion. i have had similar empathic and telepathic occurences both with psychedelics, cannabis and with musically, shamanically enduced ecstasy. these are states that take us back to the state before the consumption of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. in our becoming hyper-aware of our selves we forgot that we were separate from our body, the earth, the universe. PERFECT ANALOGY! imagine that your individual cells come to realize they are individuals. in their process of self-realization they forget about the harmony of the body that they are a part of and so the body would become ill, go to shit. that is the disharmony taking place here on earth. and now that we've rediscovered our body (this the experience of oneness, no?) we can begin reharmonization. but we can only directly reharmonize ourself and hope that it spreads, in a resonant manner. i've known this for a while now and finally i have the metaphor to comunicate it. |
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yes.. . nice to see a blakeian point of view.. . the thing that religion has done to stunt this understanding is to seperate man from nature by saying that we are unique and have a soul seperate from the body.. . but the body is simply the extension of that soul. .. |
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Jupitah - I like it... good metaphor. I don't know if you've looked into complex systems theory, but your metaphor is one that can be applied to all complex systems. So when you say "that is the disharmony taking place here on earth." I think you are describing the problems that humans are encountering (and causing) because we have forgotten that the harmony of the system is dependant upon all parts working together as a whole. Maybe thats not exactly what you were saying, but I am very keen to show people the similarities between what appear to be fundamentally different things... e.g. conciousness, society, ecology.... all complex systems that display very similar traits. We are a very long way from understanding how these systems work, but I think this will be the key to understanding many of the unanswered questions... and more importantly... should lead us into a more harmonious existence. |
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yes, and it follows all bodies are extenion of a soul, be it insect or star system... the whole (universal) body is the whole universal soul manifest. nothing is without soul, or as i have been phrasing it, nothing doesn't experience its existence to some degree or quality. |
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jupitah: from the birth of the number it was all downhill so to speak (to refer to an earlier post you've made). whilst it had huge pragmatic value in language and concepts - it also gave an attractive and abstract way of dealing with out selves, that was tempting to distinguish from other/inferior uses of language .. |
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the disharmnoy between us humans and the rest of the parental planet is indeed what i am refering to. and agree that these complex systems can be understood in terms of similarities (if that is what you are saying) but what i believe is fundamentally crucial before we are able to make serious progress towards our re-alignment with the local (earth) system is the reversal of our having forgotten our true identity as the entire planet (and ultimately the universal body). we must remember--not just you and i but some critical mass or whatever it takes--that which we have forgotten. interestingly, the very thing that catalyzed the process of our forgetting is the same thing we must use to remember. it is our extremely out-of-the-moment, analytical mode of consciousness. thought. when we took the fruit from the tree we didn't realize the responsibility we were taking on, but there's no turning back. |
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birth of the number ~ birth of the abstract concept |
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could you elaborate for me? how has the number given us the means to "deal without selves"? how does language without the conept of numbers differ from language with? |
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so was that the consumption of the fruit? the abstract? the idea in general to be contemplated, out-of-the-moment? |
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well the abstract concept gave us the means to abstract ourselves from ourselves (the mind from the body if you like) ... and see things from a different perspective. it wasn't just used for communication in a limited way anymore .. it allowed the communication to be expressed in light of an abstract and explicit concept, it allowed the mind the dominate nature - which might tie in with your notion of "out-of-moment" and analytic. ?? and to use your biblical analogy, the number was the bite of the apple - there is indeed no going back .. :) |
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yes, that is what i was going for. and this resolves the issue of... what is it precisely that makes us feel out of nature? nature is harmonious system and it was our stumbling out of harmony that brought about a need to distinguish. |
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and by dominate i mean .. abstractly conceptualise. |
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so when we feel the need to describe our actions as other than natural, it is our recognition of having forgotten. |
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...and abuse, whether intended or not. |
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