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 Now online (2)dariusgriffin belb ...and 490 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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With all due respect, you simply haven't got the brains to understand what's being talked about. So please, rather than embarrass yourself, don't bother trying. |
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yep, maybe you and me are missing something but i'm sure it really is that simple. |
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if you're so gobsmackingly brainy why not insult me properly. if you're so cosy with this idea of no individuality then why do you persistently try to define yourself as 'the only one who sees' by answering the most mundane posts on this board with 'it's all an illusion and my poo dosn't even smell' bullshit. gingaling hasn't even tried to bully you the way i have and you say that to him you snobby tosserrrrr. BTW Drunken da Mastah is winning. You are just a tesco value DM |
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You still don't understand. You have to start from the premise that there is no "you" - the very concept of "you" does not exist. It is a figment of your imagination. What you call "you" is not "you", it's the collective thoughts of everything and everyone before you, given to you, to collate what "you" think is "you". If you can't get to grips with that then you won't understand the idea of it being impossible to experience. As there is no "you", and that applies to every other human being as well, then there is nobody to experience and nobody capable of experience. "You" are not the one being hit by a hammer, and nobody is there to witness "you" being hit by the hammer, because what you think are people watching you are not in fact people, they are just objects, like a vase or a table. Does a table "experience" being hit by a hammer? No. Likewise you are no different to a vase or a table. "You" just think "you" are, because thought, or rather other people's thoughts" have planted in your head the concept of "you" - it has given you a name, an identity, a culture, beliefs. But none of those are real, remember the word is not the thing. The word mountain is obviously not the mountain. Likewise the word AMPI MAX is not whoever "you" are, not the actual physical thing. The physical thing that "you" call yourself, is only a physical thing. All the nonsense put in there is just that, nonsense - not real, illusion - created by thought. That does not mean that humans as objects have not created things - which are not marvellous or non-marvellous - as there is noone capable of experience who can judge that, it just means that what happens, happens. Just like if humans were not here, then the rest of the animals would do what the animals do - they can't build bridges or towers, but none of that is important as far as nature is concerned. Nothing actually matters. The beauty of understanding that "your" life is meaningless and that "you" don't exist as an identity, is tha |
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... that prejudice, belief, ambition all drops away and becomes utterly meaningless. And the conflict that goes along with it also ends. Then humans can direct the life they want to live truthfully. |
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Chillout, I have never for one second said that I am brainy, that's an assumption you're making. I have never even said I am right, just putting forward something and trying to help you grasp it. Whether you agree or disagree doesn't bother me in the slightest, but it would be nice if you could understand it, and for the record I respect that you make the effort rather than write some cheap, lazy ass jibes like belb. |
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You do realise that you are critiquing a straw man, right? |
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I am not critiquing anything. I am not for or against anything. |
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I don't want to obliterate the self. I think it's worth every pain to preserve the self in humanity. I understand what you are saying....in a way...but it's dodgy stuff. My bottom line on humanity is this: Humans feel. I still don't get that a human is a table, because a human has a favorite colour, buries a dead friend, harbours guilt and misery ect. The meaning of life (and i've not developed this enough to be as conclusive as all that you understand) is man versus the monster. It is us versus every ugly thing that ever was and will be. Because we can NEVER detach ourselves from the experiences we feel (eg, hammer on thumb, raped by dad, your child's first drawing and so on) and it's our duty as responsible beings with the abilty to CHOOSE to ensure that this tiny flicker of EXPERIENCE we call life is as beautiful as we can make it, for ourselves and everyone else. This is because, even before the tv told us so, we wanted to cultivate goodness and defeat the dirt of our own nature. Your whole thing of breaking humanity down to it's essence may not be wrong but it is, however, a complete affront to everything great men have fought for. I really believe in humanity, not because i'm mindlessly holding on to something that makes me feel more content and secure with myself, but because it's what all the people before and after me deserve. There pain and joy can not be summed up as nothing, in principle it's downright awful to do so. I can never ever ever cut that part of myself away, that part that experiences. CAN YOU? OR ANYONE? CAN ANYONE SAY THAT NOTHING HURTS OR PLEASES THEM. IF THAT PERSON EXISTS THEN HE IS FREE, BUT AN ABOMINATION ALSO. |
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You assume that you know what I mean by I, that it is some ego. The ego would, however, have to be something different from consciousness, to which the consciousness was only the mediator between it and world. However, I exist in the world, so I cannot be any such ego. I am only what experiences, and denying experience is to deny the experience of denying experience, implying that it is not possible to deny experience. Experience exists only as experienced, and it is I who experience what I experience, and I experience it as experienced by me. |
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ok, sorry |
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todays DM post was brought to you by the letter X |
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I am empathise with you, in that you want to preserve your identity, thoughts, feelings and emotions. Thought will resist its own attempts to nullify its importance because its wants self-preservation, just like every other cell in your body. But you have to understand that you are living an illusion, you are entirely a product of your culture, entirely second-hand, entirely manufactured. The paradox is that you call your way of living now "security". But it's the complete opposite, thought has created a world of total insecurity, fear, conflict and sadness - both inwardly and outwardly. But pleasure is a strong temptation to resist. You would rather give in to that and live in that constant pleasure/pain battle than in truth, understanding exactly what you actually are. You prefer the dream, like we all do - and that mismanagement of thought will likely cost humanity its place in the world at some point. |
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Glad you're agreeing with me now. You're right, experience can only exist as long as the "I" exists. But as the "I" is a concept created by thought, which is non-physical and completely illusory, then its safe to assume that experience is equally illusory. |
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if it's in our nature to be so helplessly tied to believing in ourselves (which i believe it is), is it not intended? you say it is a product of society but the need for SELF had to start somewhere with no one/nothing to dictate over it. I believe we were never meant to be the thing your ideas ask of humanity. It's an ideal beyond even the best man, it's like saying a fish should be able to swim backwards or it will only ever be half the fish it could be. We don't need to break humanity down into a selfless lump to be complete. What we need is to continue refining our nature until we are better than the decade before, despite the fear and insecurity. It's less pure than becoming this thing you speak of with such admiration, but it's much better. That's all we need to think about, that's all we need to achieve for ourSELVES and our children. This absolute destruction of self can wait. I WIN |
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when do i get my free laptop? |
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Barcode your thought contamination idea is ironic because it is self fulfilling. I agree with parts of what you are saying, but you have to admit the detached, fatalist way you color your views has to come from the very thing you are talking about, and thus be incomplete & skewed in itself. I don't think of reality as an illusion. I think what we experience is real, even if the way we perceive it is limited. Reality as we perceive it, including how are senses interpret matter and energy as well as all the metaphysical components like thought, values, tradition, culture, art, love, hate, wisdom, and so on exist because of the relationship between us and our world, but they do exist as dimensions and layers. The dimensions and layers add to reality and make it more, not less. I think that our unique senses interact with reality in such a way as to create the environment and experience of life, but we cannot pierce the veil, so to speak, our perception is limited. Who knows, to experience heaven, hell, nirvana or whatever is beyond, would you have to go anywhere? Or would it be you that changed, and became able to experience reality in that way. The point is that our senses are limited, and that would imply that there is dimensionality to reality that we are unable to experience. That does not falsify our experience or make it less real, it just makes it incomplete. That, however, is not the same thing as lies and distortions within our environment, what we do perceive. This is where I do somewhat agree, that our thought can skew our perception. Anything from stubbornness, to addiction, to full blown mental illness can skew our experience. While I would agree that individual experience is unreliable, I would part ways in that I trust the collective experience of humankind to act as a check and balance in defining what is objective in our environment. |
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Your "refining" of human thought has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years, and in relative terms only yesterday produced the atom and hydrogen bombs, one of which has already been used. I wouldn't call that progress. This process of 'becoming' will never arrive, you will be dead before then and the rest of civilisation with it at some point, never mind the fact that you will have lived in ignorance and misery for the most part. That is not an attack on you - just a fact we all seem happy to put up with instead of realising the truth. You may be afraid of the truth and not want to look at it, but you have the security of sharing that fear along with almost everyone else - so run along. |
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Glasse, the only irony is that I have to use the tools that thought has manufactured to explain its own futility. I am not a fatalist, far from it. Surely it's more fatal for the human race to live in ignorance and perpetual fear than accept reality and live in peace. Fatalism is a concept, and concepts are not lodged in reality, therefore creating the usual divisions and conflict with us and between us. Our physical senses may interact with reality, but psychologically thought has completely divided us from reality. We are no longer one but two, the "I", the "ego" looking at itself as if it is separate, observing it, judging it. That is completely false and has created the myth of the experience and the experiencer. You can never be complete or whole when you are divided. How can you see a broken bottle as whole when it is in pieces on the floor, likewise how can you ever see reality when you become fragmented by the thoughts of the fragmented from around the age of 1 year old. I think you want to cling on to the idea of experience and experiencing, because to you the alternative is shattering. But its really all or nothing, you can't dangle one leg in. Either accept the truth of what you are or run away from it. |
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"Your "refining" of human thought has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years, and in relative terms only yesterday produced the atom and hydrogen bombs, one of which has already been used. I wouldn't call that progress." See this is why we fell out...cos you're that guy! I don't think i quite have the words to express it to someone with your take on things, i've met you before. I know you are fixed on a certain idea, and you are being a little shortsighted, but if you just think about what you have written here you should understand me. I'm the thick one, remember? DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT WE COULD HAVE ENDED UP BEING. ANY. IDEA!!! DO YOU KNOW HOW LOW AND DISGUSTINGLY FOUL WE COULD HAVE ALL BEEN. PEOPLE, FUCKING AMAZING PEOPLE GAVE UP EVERYTHING JUST TO CONTRIBUTE THE TINIEST BIT OF GOODNESS TO MAN KIND. SO MANY PEOPLE DID THAT, IN FACT, THAT WE NOW HAVE SO MUCH TO BE THANKFUL FOR!!!!!!!! DIRT RAPE DISEASE CHAOS GREED VIOLENCE SADISM IS SOOOOO EASY. THE FILTH HAD SO MANY ADVANTAGES, THE FUCKING HATE OF MAN HAD EVERY CHANCE TO THRIVE IN EVERY SITUATION, POISONING EVERY INNOCENCE. BUT EVEN THROUGH EVERY KIND OF UGLINESS WE MANAGED TO GROW THE GOODNESS YOU BENEFIT FROM EVERY DAY. IT IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS TO JUST WRITE IT ALL OFF AS A STAIN ON YOUR PERFECT VISION. YOU ABSOLUTELY DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO SUM HUMANITY UP AS A FAILURE, DESPITE HOW DIRTINESS IS STILL LIVING WITH US. WE TRIED AND THAT IS THE MOST NOBLE THING EVER ACHIEVED. APRECIATE THAT PLEASE. |
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haha i think i made the thread space wider! how's that for broad thinking hohoho sho funnneeee i am very funny i know this |
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Why are you getting angry and writing in caps? You are certainly no better than an ant. Intelligence does not make you better - if nature had independent thought why should it care that your are more intelligent than an ant and therefore more useful. On the contrary, humans are destroying their own environment far more readily than ants, so you could assume ants the more intelligent. Regardless, ants and humans are of equal importance - ie. no importance. As for your other points, there is plenty of greed, hate, sadism around - look at the current banking crisis. Greedy governments trying to hold on to power, greedy stock markets corrupting the system, greedy bankers making money at the expense of the people, and greedy citizens borrowing well beyond their means of paying it back. As for disease. Heard of HIV? A pandemic of the last 25 years. Getting bigger not smaller. Talk of hate? Russia/Georgia, Pakistan/India, USA+UK - Iraq/Afghanistan, Israel/Palestine, the Burmese war, Korean communism... I could go on. There are or have been very few good men. Einstein for all his brilliance created the atom bomb. Even those who made the most important inventions were motivated by fame and money. Even the kindest charities were motivated by God, which is not charity but selfishness. It is my business to write what I want, after all, I am the world and the world is me. Humanity is a stinking failure and continues to be. "We tried" - big deal. What is there to do but try? At present, humans are far more useful to the eco-system dead than alive. Wake-up, smell the coffee, forget your dream within dreams. |
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you do not encourage any better. |
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To barcode: thoughts maybe physical, becouse disorders in brain shows disorders in thoughts, performance in brain shows performance in thoughts. But this similarities is not direct proof of it, but atleast it can shine your way. Maybe is no diffrence if u think that life is illusion or life is material, but like someone said we all have to accept the rules of the game. It just changes how u see the world. So do you see the world becouse absorbtion and emission or becouse it is illusion? like someone said, illusion is word which simpifies everything and lets you escape phylosophical thinking, emision and absorbtion is concepts which cant make world simple like illusion, but rises many other questions which I think can be keys to other information, or even to new discovery. Whith accepting illusion you can find other thinks like "phylosophical flash", when u find that posibility world as illusion can be logicaly argued. But you cant reject reality as mater or illusion. I think beter choose move than to stop. |
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I think it's better choose to stop (this thread) |
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It's difficult to really communicate such complexities through the typed word. Anyway, here's a nice link - not the be all and end all, but very illuminating regardless. Parts 2 + 3 sub-linked from You Tube: |
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I wouldn't touch that with a 50 foot pole |
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Most morons wouldn't. |
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i...i don't know what to say. i have NEVER gasped (+shocked chuckle) at an xlt post the way i did when i read "Wake-up, smell the coffee, forget your dream within dreams." you've shown yourself up right proper. what's more you have proved my point. this post seems to embody every single reason we've never quite got along. im sorry i thought you had at least a little more to you than this. this is just very very sad. |
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Honestly, do yourself a favour, don't communicate with me again. You will never like me and I will never respect you or tolerate your immaturity. |
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I never disagreed with you on that point. What I disagreed with was that you said you didn't think there was any I that experienced anything. I also kind of disagree with your notion of originality and spontaneity. The way I see it, it just doesn't matter if someone else has thought something before, or if something has been “implanted” by society; that's simply the way we humans exist. Sure, it's easy to get frustrated by how “originality” is idealised to the extent that every single new video game, television show, artist and though has to have some kind of “unique” or “original” element that is really nothing more than a cosmetic modification of some previous thing. The thing that matters to me is if you have understood what you preach in the sense that you have it in “original evidence,” as Husserl called it. Now, quoting Husserl here actually fulfils a purpose in the argument: That he thought the thought at some arbitrary point in time that preceded the point in time at which I thought the thought, or even the point at which I read his thought is inconsequential to my ability to think the thought (as my own), and to relate it to an original evidence of my own. In other words, if I am already put into a relation with Husserl's statement, I can only determine its truth by appealing to my own experience. If I cannot find a basis for understanding his thought through my own experience, I cannot understand it except in a purely disinterested manner -- in the manner of a historian, as it were. In other words, the question is not “What did Husserl mean by this?” but rather “What do I understand by this?” Reading the words of “dead philosophers,” then, doesn't imply reading dead words; the words simply have the possibility of being dead in the same way that they have the possibility of being alive. |
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your all in the wrong thread.......go get those tunes and feed us bitches |
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You're so hopelessly lost Barcode.. And I don't mean that in an offensive way at all.. I don't think humanity can ever be fragmented and divided from reality or nature, nor do I think if this was the case that the division would be an illusion. You say it is an illusion, implying that there is some objective truth to how humanity should or can really exist. But who decides what this objective truth is? Or WHAT decides? You can't call anything an illusion if you want to state something as fact. The brain in everything it does, is divide us from reality. If you had really not been divided anymore, you would not be able to comprehend that you had just typed that message, because you would have no concept of 'you' nor would you have a reason to do anything, internally. You would just flow like water down a river. Denying the I is like denying self awareness altogether. Another thing is that if a human was even capable of becoming one with nature (probably with a drug or neurosurgery) then he would not be a normal human. He would not even have all the functions of a normal human. The human is all about categorizing reality, memorizing it, learning from it, and maybe create or destroy based on those experiences. There is an I doing this, and it's not an illusion. |
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1. sorry i dont match your intellect. Perhaps through, rather than jus bein a dick, you could of taken the time to break my interpretation down, explain to me the parts where i'm embarrassing myself and offer me an insight into your delightful worldly way of thinking. 2. smells pretentious in here |
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if i choose to read this thread,its going to be along read |
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yoyoyoyo we all love you here. your avy is great too |
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