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 Now online (1)belb ...and 381 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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I read a book about socialism. The human society is compared to an ant colony, a biological organism. There are good and bad ant soldiers. |
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It's like a Beat thing, yeah? All stream of consciousness and all......... |
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"There are good and bad ant soldiers." That's why is a poor analogy. In an ant colony you don't get ants that contribute nothing and damage the colony, but there are plenty of people in human society who are like that. |
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*it is |
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yeah..people are wicked |
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i wish we were all ants. you never see ants rebelling or going on strike, do you? they must live in a socialist utopia |
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im free like an eagle |
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caged eagle |
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Not everyone can contribute something, there have to be people who take |
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Socialists don't talk of society in terms of 'good' and 'bad' people. Its not about making moral judgements about 'evil' capitalists and 'good' workers. Its about looking at history scientifically and about the interests of groups of people and how they conflict. Socialism IS a humanist moral position but that is central to their aims, not their analysis of the world. |
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You missed out the, "be bothered to" between 'can' and 'contribute'. Of course, there are some hopeless cases who try, but don't succeed, in making a positive contribution. There are also those who are quite capable of doing so, but choose not to. It's debateable if it's in society's (long term) interests to carry the former, let alone the latter. |
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"contributing to society" is degrading and dehumanizing. fuck that. jfk was a fascist/socialist. socialism is deadly. who needs ants when you can have one hive per soul? |
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As an alternative, would you propose a complete disbanding of society or just that we all stop contributing to society and leech? |
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socialism is a student fantasy. Like being into aphex twin and thinking he might one day release a full length album. A world without class is a world that doesn't work. |
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If it's a "student fantasy", then there's an alarming number of people, who aren't students, keepin the dream alive after many, many years.. "A world without class is a world that doesn't work." good man yourself. I suppose you believe the third world, too, must exist for the world to function, yes? |
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ceri JC: If those two are the options, I'd say the first. But the point about JFK-style "soft socialism" was to state the obvious: giving and receiving are reciprocal... if you want something from the government, you better give something. but if you don't want anything, you better not give anything either. I'd rather people contributed to activities of their own choosing rather than rely on warriors like JFK to tax people to death - to the death of their own, and to the death of some random brown people. It all depends on the definition of what constitutes contributive behaviour, of course... most of what's consider non-contributive behaviour is actually very contributive from someone else's vantage point. What socialism encourages is precisely leeching, due to a bureaucratic nightmare (of regulation, taxation, industrial planning etc) and the destruction of individual thinking and creativity. Contributions are minimized to a boring, predictable, inefficient, unexciting, unsexy work pattern. Sound like much of corporate culture? that's because corporatism is socialism. The only socialism that might work is one that evens the scores (in the like of John Rawl's theories of justice), wipes the slate clean, and then fades away... unfortunately, this eventual disbanding of the force seems to be the toughest part of the equation, and history is not kind on experiments of this sort. Hence skepticism of socialism is healthy to say the least. Skepticism per se is healthy. ESPECIALLY in politics. |
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I'm all for thin government. Whilst I concede that we need still need a government (I'd love to live in an anarchistic state populated solely by reasonable people, but sadly I think that's unlikely), I think we could dramatically reduce their presence/powers and hence the amount they tax us. I think socialism encourages leeching because it allows it. I think it'd occur in any system that enables people to do it. Whilst I recognise that non-contributive behaviour usually benefits someone other than the non-contributer (be it a police officer or security guard who is kept in a job, or an insurance salesperson) I think it's safe to say that in most instances it's fairly clear if a given act is good or bad for society as a whole. Yes, a kid who steals a car, joyrides in it and then torches it is giving business to a car dealership, insurance salesperson, firemen, etc. it'd still be better for society if it didn't occur at all. |
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don't suppose anything. The only socialists i ever met were students and hippy bums. Cept for Cuba, which is loosely socialist. |
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Cuba is a socialist state, but its governance is also dictatorial. |
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"also"? |
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Yes. What're you hinting at? |
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Seems like the current world situation is a combination of the worst elements of socialism and capitalism. Huge government grants for big companies, people scamming benefits, sweat shop labour, warmongering, ehhhh... I don't believe in left or right anymore. |
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Not to say that un-dictatorial socialism couldn't exist, but it is by no means an accident that dictatorial powers should come into fruition by a government based on socialist principles. (With the caveat, i should say, that there's plenty of good castro has done etc...) The reason for the fact that the third world has use for Marxism and Leninism and Maoism and such movements is their liberatory potential for land redistribution and such anti-feudal enlightenment programmes. Beyond this, ultra-leftist governments tend to do more harm than good, usually after about 6 months in office. |
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left and right are the two hemispheres of the brain, can't have one without the other, and can't let one dominate the other |
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Yes, and it's sad that the principles that socialism advances are most attractive to those in harsh conditions.. who then find themselves being exploited by the government that was promising to do exactly the opposite.. Which is why I think anarchism is a far better ideal than socialism.. |
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Yet another completely uninteresting thread |
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But "left wing" and "right wing" are just (usually loaded) terms. Stalin was left wing because he's a statist, and right wing because he crushed all opposition to him. |
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For those interested, Radio 4 had an interesting programme this afternoon with Christopher Hitchens (Trotskyist) talking to Matthew Parris (Tory) about Leon Trotsky. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/greatlives/index.shtml |
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I thought Christopher Hitchens was a neo-con now. |
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That is a contradtiction. Cuba, though Stalinists and the West would say otherwise, is NOT socialist. Socialism by definition MUST be democratic. Castro himself denied soon after the Cuban Revolution that he was a Marxist. But he made the choice to align Cuba with the Soviet Union, as many states did during the cold war, out of what he saw as a necessity to protect itself from the US. |
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Well, he seems to have fallen behind the west on the 'war on terror' and confused his former comrades. I'm a bit confused as to the position he's taken. |
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Well, in the country I live in (Obara knows, but shhh...) there are some catholic-blurbing-antigay-nazi-pro-death-punishment-facists who try to sound like socialists (sounds ridiculous, right?), but they are too stupid to be socialists :) Hopefully in a few years they will destroy my country and leave a space for younger generation . People love them, though, 'cause people love primitive fuckers, so there is a possibility they could fuck our great Poland in the ass for more than 4 years. |
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socialism is a baaaad thing |
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you might be thinking about his younger bro: the communism. it's a different story. |
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same story, new package |
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Tony Blair claims to be a socialist. 'Nuff said. |
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that was Labour. Tony blair = new labour. |
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socialism is great only its an abstract word some say hitler was a socialist too im more of a liberal communist |
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there's a difference between socialism and national socialism.. |
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you smarty old man :) you prolly know everything about both :D |
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so what's with the tags, guys? |
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what annoys me about socialism is the capitalists who bitch about it and its flaws, when the inequalities and injusticies of capitalism surround us everyday. i belive in socialism but i'm not saying its the answer. but capitalism doesn't work. it only functions the needs of a select few. at the expense of everyone else. bollox |
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i miss communism |
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