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 Now online (2)big dariusgriffin ...and 383 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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This is a fucking historic moment. This might be a people standing up to their leader and saying: "Your policy brought terrorism upon us, not vice versa" And use their vote to change that leader and policy. It may also be a day to say: "It's time to stand up to terrorism" In solidarity with Bush, Blair and the reigning right. Bush Blair, Aznar, Rajoy, etc. want this attack to be Al Qaeda. Imagine what would happen if the people took responsibility for a terrorists attack, and began fighting terror at home, rather than through never ending warfare. If the socialistas win, this could change the tone of the whole world. |
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No matter who you vote for, there will always be a government. |
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I disagree. You want to know something? I recall watching a documentary the other day and only reason this muslim extremist terrorist guy gave for being anti-west is that we're light on homosexuality. My view is that although you might not like think so we do basically live in a pretty liberal democracy. Also compared to a lot of Muslim states we do basically have a lot of rights which often people choose to be ignorant of. Now if you can't recognise that then I'm at a loss. Fact is for these terrorists its a religious thing so you can't appeal to them on intellectual level. I have no idea what their motivation is. I honestly don't know but one thing is for sure for all the West's supposed ills; we don't even begin to touch some of the attrociates of other countries/states. |
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Jazembo, Post was directed at Xanatos by the way. |
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infact aznar is trying to blame eta for the attacks...i wouldn't be surprised if his popular party would win the election - people can be really silly sometimes, especially elder ppl |
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Well someone has done it. Put it this way its pretty unlikely it was the IRA. Lol. |
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I disagree. Had the reverse occured; that is, it had Eta been responsible and Al Qaeda were blamed, people would of still been up in arms. They would claim that the government knew it was Eta, yet blamed Al Qaeda to further justify the war in Iraq. When the problem was really "at home"... Sadly, in a situation like this there are no "winners". If it weren't such a painful subject, I'd find it laughable that the government are being made out to be the bad guys, when it's quite obviously the terrorists who are in the wrong. |
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well, wrong policy can lead to terrorism imo. |
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We're in mutual agreement as usual. |
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What have these terrorists got to gain? I just don't get their agenda. They're trying to forcefully push their agenda/will upon Western societies. Thing is I don't mind if a people's chose is to vote in or support loonies but at least give them the choice in the first place. A lot of these countries/states never got that option. |
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You don't think were trying to forcefully push our agenda/will upon their societies? |
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"They're trying to forcefully push their agenda/will upon Western societies" i thought that is what western society is doing to them... ofcourse these attacks are terrible and people who are behind them should be punished, but maybe western politicians could prevent these attacks in the first place. "Thing is I don't mind if a people's chose is to vote in or support loonies but at least give them the choice in the first place" im not sure if i understand this right - you're saying there's no democracy in this countries, like iraq - ofcourse there were many people against the regim of husein, but there were also a lot of people supporting him, at least that is what i've read from people that were living in iraq. what they say on bbc and cnn it isn't always the whole story, they just show what they are allowed to show... |
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Without turning this into a political debate about terrorism I hope nacmat or any others in spain will bring this back on topic and let us know if they voted and for whom and why. |
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Well look I think its pretty fare to say that if any leader starts to wipe his opponents and people in his country for political ends then he can expect in due course to be dealt with by Western powers. Now I don't really follow your argument. You're not really suggesting that because Saddam Hussein had supporters (who no doubt were corrupted by money, other means or were most likely from the same tribe) that he should have remained in power or that by having supporters somehow excuses his actions (those being the quite obvious and servere abuse of human rights). |
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thing about elections is that people who would be capable of runing a country are all sucessful in what they do, so they don't want to get involved in politics...that is why elections are crap, you can only pick among no good people imo. (i don't kno what is it like in all the other countries, but i know that's a fact in my country) |
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ofcourse it's a good thing hussein was removed, all i was trying to say is that he probably had as many supporters as enemies among his people. |
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but terrorists have nothing to do with iraq...11.09 occured before the iraq war |
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Come on Tolstoyed :-), I think you're asking for perfection. Fact is you can vote in someone (if they're available) who broadly speaking represents your views. No single party will exactly fit every individual's views. Now how bad can that really be? In every country there are usually 2/3 big parties that just the way it is. |
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yeah, that's just the way it is...that is also way i haven't voted for any of them in my whole life, and apparently i'll continue to do so |
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way=why |
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Iraq was unfinished business. And in my view 9/11 was never relevant. I felt very uncomfortable with something not being done. A lot of Iraqis pre the war were frightened that the American's would just leave them like last time and that revenge would be sought and thats why a lot of Iraqis didn't want to get involved or seemed very aloof. You gotta appreciate you're dealing with an environment of total fear, total oppression. One just can't imagine what that does to people. |
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is there any particular reason why you think all that? how come you're so certain about it? i mean, do you really belive everything that is being put to you by media? cuz i sure don't |
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The media isn't relevant to this. Its a question of deduction based on human nature and other circumstance. I just can't understand why you wouldn't support the obvious arguments for going to war and dealing with 'Saddam'. The humantarian issue is just so obvious and clear as a bell. Sorry I'm just completely lost. |
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cuz maybe it could be dealt with in a more peaceful way? |
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On the media issue. We have free media in this country (UK). They're not the Government's voice if thats what you're suggesting. You need only to have heard of the ongoing spat between the Government and the BBC over the '45 minute dossier'. Individual journalists and editors make their choices as to how to represent the issues. The media as a whole tend to only report disasters, murders and other bad news. The media diet is one of constant deaths, murders and attrociaties - this is not reality. And isn't uplifting but its what they choose to feed us. Usually the media, certainly locally, will broadly speaking support the voice of the people but they do that because it is in their interest to sell papers not because they choose to. |
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I voted of course for PSOE |
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the aim of terrorist sure as hell isn't to push their religious views on us... the vast majority of them (though perhaps not all... because people are fucked up) are merely reacting to desperate situations that they and their countrymen have been forced into in their own homelands by western powers... it's not about whether or not certain governments are good or bad... it's incredibly dangerous to just allow Western powers to just intervene in any affairs that they see fit (and let's face it, in a whole lot of these situations, there is more to be gained by the west than just knowing that there's one more liberal democracy in the world...)... large portions of the world reject the ideological practices of the west and, for many, it must seem like the only way they can have any chance of affecting their future... that said, i definitely think they are horribly misguided... by attacking civilians, they are only hardening the world against their causes, when if there's anyone they should be trying to sway, it's the civilian populous of the world, whom, in many western democracies, are more aware than ever of the crimes that their countries have committed against some of these less-than-self-determining nations... |
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yes, oficially all the media is free, not related to any party...but im affraid it isn't so in many cases. sometimes (especially during the war in iraq) i've read many sites and they all differ to what was written in one of our papers, who im almost certain has no party influence at all...i know all the other media in my country is crap tho, so i don't really take to seriously what's in the papers or internet...i like to hear people who are involved with it and know the situation, what they have to say and i noticed many times that it is totally different to what media have to say... |
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How? The US/UK gave Saddam Hussein plenty of opportunity to leave the country before they went to war with him or did you forget that? They put as much pressure on Hussein and his followers to leave as they possible could before even setting foot on Iraq. Now if thats not peaceful then please tell me what is. The very fact that Saddam didn't budge was because he probably felt the American's/NATO ultimately wouldn't have the balls to go in (they'd been weak and uneffective in the past afterall) but more importantly than that he didn't want to loose power. You've got understand a man like this, Saddam Hussein wasn't going to give up power certainly not without significant pressure in the first place. That pressure didn't work so we were left with little choice. Can't you understand that? What good is it pressurising someone, peacefully I might add, and then when they still refuse to leave peacefully not actually taking any action? We bent over backwards to give Saddam a way out more than he ever ever deserved. People in power always want to hold on to it for as long as they can and screw the consequences. And dictators are a seriously extreme version of this is the kinda of individual. This is just human nature afterall whether this be at a national, local, company, social or any other level. I just can't understand while you're not able to understand this. |
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What cause? What abject poverty, tribal warfare, religious tirrany? I have no idea what their beef is with the West. They fucking blame us for their own problems it makes me sick. These countries create they're own problems often the West have little or no involvement in these countries whatsoever anyway. And their leaders basically loot and pluder what they can from their people's and kill and mame just to stay in power. The whole lot of it makes me puke. Now how the fuck is that our fault? |
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okay man, you have to read up on the last 50 years worth of imperialism... do you know how many dictators have gained power because they were co-operative with western regimes... do you know how many millions of civilians have suffered/died so that a handful of countries could bolster their profits? ever heard of Pinochet? ever heard of the Shah? ever heard of Saddam Hussein (yes that's right)? i could go on and on and on... but i think you should take the time to find out for yourself from sources more reputable than my recollection... |
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so he was offered to leave the country peacefuly? us/uk were pissed of cuz of 9/11 and they wanted to show of with their military power - what better than to attack the devastated iraq, and blame the terrorism for it...the un inspectors were working on it as far as i know. but after the threats from us where getting bigger, iraq sent them out of the country... |
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I've been over this ground a billion times. And my short answer for you is I entirely disagree. Anyway thats it for me 'cause these threads end up going on forever. |
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what do you mean? you disagree with history? these are hardly speculations we are talking about here... |
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Ok lets forget this. I genuinely give up. For some reason you wanted to leave Saddam in power and let him continue to fuck his people up. I've already stated that this was for me always a Humantarian issue but you keep going back to 9/11. So lets leave it 'cause quite frankly I've had enough. |
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hmm, i can't leave it when you make a comment like this for the end :) "Humantarian issue" it's quite clear that they weren't in for the humanitarian reasons, but for the money and power...you probably know that to send and equipt such arm isn't cheap - the fact is they (the us and uk governament) rather spend this money to help the iraqi people, instead of helping their own citizens...im sure you know a large part of population is us is living in poverty and many of those are homeless - now what kind of life is that, and on the other hand this sam country is spending bilions for making a war (helping some other nation). it was all about the money. and once again, it was right to put away hussein, but it could be done different, that is all im saying. |
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arm=army |
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:-) |
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THE PSOE WON!!!! |
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P(Socialista?)OE |
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in my opinion the Iraq war is the beggining of a downard spiral for this planet. Unless there is a massive change in US foreign policy or human nature, neither will happen soon. |
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i'd say it started before iraq... but yes, everything that happens in the next little while is of the utmost importance... we're running very very close to destroying ourselves, and the ideals we pretend to live for... |
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happy sad still for the victims |
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This is a good thing... sending a signal to the warmongers. Byebye aznar, you fucking tool. |
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nice to see spanish people oposing their old governament... i sure hope we won't need terrible events like spain has been through, to vote for a better party (but there isn't a good one insight unfortunately...) |
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Can you imagine the American people responding to a terrorist attack by blaming Bush or his policies? We would be bombarded with propoganda and people would just run around foaming at the mouth so they could 'bring the terrorists' to justice. |
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