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Please can you help me with a question I have regarding detuning on old analogue synths: Please could you describe how pitch detuning sounds, briefly? Presumably as they heat up (and get older) the resistance of components increases which causes the detuning. Does the detuning in the case of pitch cause pitch waver, or always up or always down? Does the range of the detuning increase over time? Is the typical quality of detuning roughly the same in all old synths or does it differ wildly? Any help appreciated, thanks. In case you're interested, it's for a detuning patch I'm making in Reaktor, with a view to perhaps working it into something for graphical synthesis. |
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ask ISAN, they'll know... |
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Who're they? |
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they're on morr... to my knowledge, all they use are vintage analogue synths... of course... this may be of no use, unless you can get a hold of them through their webpage... but now that i think about it... you probably can... yes... you definitely can... http://www.isan.co.uk/about.htm |
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on my roland Juno 106 it has a little tuning knob on the back so i can correct the pitch. so i guess that has kind of masked any natural detuning that might have occured. i suppose that doesn't really answer your question but, it does kinda suggest that the natural detuning of some vintage synthesizers might be difficult to detect as it could be easily masked by other sources. but, there also must have been some motivation for Roland to add a pitch knob, and the fact that it can change the pitch up and down suggests that both directions of pitch change might occur with time. but yo, i don't know. i'm just speculating here... also try www.vintagesynth.com they have a lot of info on vintage synths. if you haven't tried there already. |
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Bump for the night owls. |
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I was reading an article comparing the Arturia CS-80 to the Yamaha synth it's emulating - seems the original was a huge monster with built in fans that cooled the case unevenly, and you had to tune the oscillators with a tiny fiddly screw and it was completely fucked up. If you moved it you had to tune it, if you turned it off and let it cool down you had to tune it, so studios would just leave it on all the time. Damn, can't find the article now... Anyhoo the tuning drifted wildly and it was a mammoth pain and no one at the time thought the detuning was quaint or vintage or full of character. :D |
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one my synths that can actually detune themselves (both korgs), i have a little sliders on the front that you can use to adjust this. personally, mine never detune for the time i use them. but they do has a low white noise emission due to the age of the gear, but typically it's not too noticeable. but sometimes if i feel like, i'll play with the detune sliders. |
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ummmm, yes, sure why not? |
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Yeah I've got a CS-60 - Which is a scaled-down CS-80 - Same filters and oscillators and stuff though... The detuning on a Juno or Jupiter isn't really very noticable... But on the CS-60 is dramatic, and makes it sound amazing! Every oscillator is on a different board and they're all completely doing their own thing... It doesn't sound out of tune in the way you'd expect though - It's just got a kind of emotional quality to the sound - VERY BoC - Their pads and synths have every oscillator detuned... If I'm using a digital synth I'll often put an LFO on the pitch of each oscillator, just very slow and subtle - Ideally a bit random too - Can do that on my Roland module and it works quite well... Still, not the same as the CS-60 - I don't know quite what's going on with that synth! |
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You mean it's unstable just to the point of being interesting? Cool - I was under the impression that it became unusable if you dropped a pencil three doors down. |
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this is the most interesting thread I've looked at in a while. :) I wish I knew more about the oldschool giants. Fleetmouse and Jswift = you guys are my heros! |
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by the way, is that a bunny with flapjacks on it's head? |
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That is the famous pancaek bunny. |
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aww, that is the coolest bunny ever... im such a wuss when it comes to these things. |
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usually master tuning knobs or slider are there also for correcting the pitch to play with other synths/instruments it seems that on my ms-20 if you leave it play a note forever the pitch will start to drop noticeably due to the cheap nature of the osc..., paradoxaly they are also renowned for being stable under normal use, go figure.... anyway, i think the problem (or quality:p) of detuning is when their is more than one osc, if not you'll hear nothing, maybe you'll notice that it is lower or higher than the pitch at wich it should be |
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Ta for the advice folks. J Swift: Yes, I've emulated that effect by putting two oscillators to the same setting and just altered the pitch slightly on one- very nice "rich" sound. E-man, I'm envious of your MS-20... great old machines. Have you seen that softsynth version of it due out early this year? I'm skeptical as to how accurately it'll reproduce the sound. |
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BTW Swift, I managed to get the Diamond Cup open on F-Zero... trick is to accept you won't come first in every race and not boost so much you crash/fly off the track. As long as you come in the top 3 or so in most tracks you can afford to even come 10th in one. |
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it's called drift. detuning is like 1 to 2 semitones difference. If you want a chorus have the oscillators at 3 or 5 note diferences. Like 400 is the fundemental, make the second 405...For drift and random stuff use low frequency noise oscillators. Tac them one to the oscillators. They should drift too radically, though. |
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shouldn't |
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the diamond cup is easy to unlock. ;) |
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Haha no way! I just unlocked the Diamond cup too! Did it with this ship I built myself too... Still totally stuck in story mode though! Although not tried it for a little while... I'm not too sure how accurately they'll be able to emulate the MS-20 in software - I think the regular synth lead and bass sounds will be pretty close - But I can't ever imagine software being able to do those Aphex Classics style pounding bass drums... The fx in the MS-20 are utterly insane - When you get the high pass and low pass filters both self-oscillating and crossing over, it's such a mad uncontrollable sound... And the MS-20 can produce such incredibly low frequencies - Much lower than you'd think you could hear - Like where you hear every individual click in a square wave. |
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Story mode is so fuckin hard! I can't get past the 2nd mission.. but unlocking/beating Diamond cup was no challenge for me. ;) |
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Oh yeah, when I read about the CS synths originally I thought tuning would be some kind of issue - Everyone seems to rattle on about it - But the tuning instability just makes a really interesting and rich sound... You have to leave it a few minutes to warm up when you switch it on, but after that it's really not a problem.. Boards of Canada take that detuned sound even further by recording it down to tape and adding wow and flutter effects - You listen to their synth sounds and they're actually really simple - Just beautifully detuned - Sounds much more organic. |
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Haha, I think me and Ceri are stuck on the third, or it could be the forth? You've got to come first in this race against 12 other nutters! I'm sure there's something I'm missing... Keep meaning to get back into Zelda - But I stopped playing it cos I was just sailing around trying to find something to do with myself... |
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Yep- The MS-20 Bass sounds on some of the tracks on Mr Oizo's "Analog Worms Attack" are fantastic. Re story mode- yep that jump race is the third one... |
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Yeah, I'm not sure, but I'm guessing he's using one of those crazy Korg SQ-10 sequencers - RJ uses it quite a lot, it's very recognisable cos you can sequence pitch, filter, anything really, just with these dials... That crazy noise loop on Wax The Nip sounds like an MS-20 & SQ-10 - Sequenced noise filtering... You just can't get stuff like that with anything else.. |
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i love intentional detuning; that sort of crashing sound you can hear, i love that little whine. it reminds me of when i was a kid and me and my sister would just scream really loud at a high pitch and the harmonic crashing of our voices would sound like a short-wave radio being tuned or like a theramin. know what i'm saying? |
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ugh... my mind is gone to mush... |
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