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i'm just curious what others have to say on the topic. has anyone here had a personal experience of this sort which they are willing to share? there seems to be a lot of stigma attached to it, since death lies beyond the reach of science, thus many people question the validity of such experiences, stigmatizing those who have lived through them. i myself have not had such an experience, but have spoken about it to several people who have - two have nearly died by drowning (theirs was an experience of nothingness), one had an NDE through an attempted suicide (the most common experience in the western world of traveling through a tunnel and witnessing light at the end of it) and the other had an out-of-body experience during major surgery which involved their heart being stopped for a short period of time. more than anything, this is a subject on the nature of consciousness - what of us survives upon death? is it merely matter itself, or is there a conscious element unalienable to our being regardless of the form which our existence takes on? how are we to account for NDEs? is brain chemistry the only explanation? |
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sometimes i have deep feelings that im about to die and i think my heart stoped. and i have to like stand up or shake my head and come back to whats going on. but i dont think anything of it besides the fact that im paranoid of side effects from certain .. um "things". |
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Your brain releases right before you die (or about to die). This causes the hallucinations and the very popular - light in the tunnel effect. |
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really? oh.. hm.. interesting. |
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that erowid.org is cool.. yes.. |
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this body is the current manifestation, current state of my soul. i give up trying trying to fathom what happens when the physical system shutdowns for disintegration. whatever happens beyond this event horizon of consciousness, i will know when i get there. if for some reason i require to know before i die, life can bring me an NDE. until then, i'm grateful to be living at this time. |
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So all you 'I dont do drugs' people can suck a big fat dose of illegal drugs before you die!!! |
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is there any sort of proof of the dmt release at death? as far as i know it is a hypothesis--very likely one imo--but i didn't think there had been any analytical verification. |
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Well we were partyin wit a friend of mine and I said "WOO I'M GONNA KILL YA" and he said "NO WAY" and I didn't kill him, so what do ya call it, a neardeath ecxpetirne? |
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ah! the dmt experience - this ive heard about in more than just the near death cases - slightly off-topic, but dmt can apparently also create situations in which you feel that you are encountering aliens, in some alternate realm - very realistic, not like typical lsd/mushroom type hallucinogenics... |
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you've read "dmt: the spirit molecule"? dr. rick strassman, government funded study on the dmt experience. goes into the nde and alien abduction parallels. discusses the hypotheses of dmt synthesis in the pineal gland (long branded by western science as a functionless gland). |
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well, in as far as i am aware, there have been some scientific studies into the nature of near death experiences, but they have not been entirely conclusive. the brain does release endorphins at the point of death, which apparently accounts for a feeling of euphoria associated with NDEs. it makes dying a more tolerable experience, i would assume. however, there are reports of incidents where a patient has returned from the brink of death even after all brain activity has ceased - and their experiences are not all too dissimilar from all other NDEs. |
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well, I drank milk past the experation date one time... that was nerve racking... |
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what did you see? hear? |
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i don't recall the specifics, but from the sources i have read, there are some fundamental differences between a DMT experience and an NDE. the most significant one is observed in the out-of-body element of many NDEs. whereas with a DMT experience, the visions are entirely the result of chemical changes in your brain, and therefore hallucinatory, in the case of out-of-body experiences associated with NDEs, the people who have undergone this can often describe exactly what was happening to them upon having lost consciousness - one of the proofs of this are accounts by people who have been blind since birth, yet could vividly describe numerous details of a surgical procedure (confirmed by the doctors themselves) they have been undergoing which resulted in an out-of-body experience. |
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hmm.. i kept trying to find that damned book at the bookstore, but it was nowhere to be found :( although their database stated otherwise.. hmm.. it's been a year.. still nothing found :( |
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Someone on this board once said that the tunnel of light mentioned is coming from a delivery room. I thought about it for a while, got nautious and threw up. Let me off. |
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i borrowed it from a buddy, who ordered it from amazon. |
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hmm. yes, the thought that you just jump from being an old sagging sack of wrinkly skin & bones into a body of a newborn with no time for respite from the hell of living is a rather frightening thought. 'being john malkovitch' anyone? "and if i did have a choice, i'd never wanna live forever. just let me have a voice so i can make my point. i can't imagine running a race with no finish line. just let me keep my pace and make most of my time". - slug of atmosphere |
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i used to look at death in a very straight forward manner: you die, your body disintegrates and becomes many other thing... my soul, too, integrates with all of those things. but that doesn't seem to work... our bodies recycle every 7 years or so. the energy/vibration patterns of our bodies seem to be what is important. who knows what happens to these patterns when the body comes undone? |
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i guess the key question to ask is whether or not there is a conscious element which survives beyond death. regardless of what your beliefs are, the fact that we do continue to exist in one form or another upon death (even if only on a molecular level) is undeniable. however, as to whether or not consciousness survives beyond a mere physical existence is, there is no definitive answer. |
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i was off a boat out too sea and a shark put its mouth around my leg, but didnt bite me... but needless to say it cut me right up and i still have the scars... |
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i've been hit by two or three cars. my mind was amazingly clear and void of any thought besides "holy shit" as i skidded on the pavement. never anything near fatal. never tried dmt. |
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if you use katamine (tranquliser for animals) you create a near death experience. In the vietnam war it was called "deathdrug". alot of info on the internet about it you can import it from India btw. |
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yeah, over here you don't need to import ketamine.. you can get it off street corners... is it harder to get over there? i personally don't like the drug too much... if i don't take enough, i end up getting headaches, so that i will want to take more.. if i take just the right amount, i feel detached (well that part is good, but i have never gotten to that point more than once), if i take too much too fast - oh boy... i feel like im going to die. then i just sit hunched over the toilet for a few hours.. not fun at all.. and no, i didn't see any light or any tunnel.. i considered writing my will... :) |
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pretty well everyone here has written on either a so-called "close call" (ie. a brush with death) or a death-like experience brought on by narcotics such as ketamine (LSD, as most people know, can result in a "death-trip" as well). but has anyone had an actual NDE (near-death experience) - as in, for example, they were in a major accident which may have required them to be resuscitated, etc. whereby they had an out-of-body experience or any other common elements of an NDE? or does anyone here have any familiarity with this subject? plaidzebra, where are you when the world needs you to write on a thought-provoking topic? |
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Almost 11 years ago, my little brother (now he is 18) suffered a problem inside his brain, maybe one kind of bacterium... the actual circumstances of it are unknow to this day. He was on the hospital almost two months, during that time his vital signs were little. He says, one day our grandfather was with him in the hospital room, our grandfather asked to him to be patient and do not have fear. When my brother had better health, he told his experience to the family, my dad, aunt and grandmother were amazed cause he told them the correct caracteristics of the grandfather died 40+ years ago. This is very personal and I found it very interesting to share it with you. |
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neto: if you or your brother are curious to dalve further into information on NDEs (many people who have had them are often unaware that many other people like them have had similar experiences), a good book to start with is a now-classic "Life After Life" by Dr. Raymond A. Moody ( ) - it's not some sort of a cheesy new-age type book by any means - Dr. Moody was one of the first to conduct a legitimate scientific study of the near-death phenomenon. i did come across an account of an experience similar to that of your brother's in that book, if i recall correctly (i've looked into this topic a fair bit out of sheer interest in it, and there's quite a lot of resources on the internet, obviously - though a great deal of them not all too legitimate). |
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Ketamine is horrible!!! The last time I had that my whole arm locked! my elbow was stuck in a 45 degree angle and I felt I was leaning over at 30 degrees above the floor! I'm not doing that again. |
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i have not personally had a near death experience. i have, however, had very strange experiences related to the use of so-called psychedelic substances. because, like dreams, these experiences are so linked to my personal context, and because such experiences are generally considered to be unreliable and invalid, i will not share them here. i do, however, take issue with the "release of endogenous dmt as a cause of the near death experience" idea. we identify so closely with our physical manifestation that we begin to see the manifestation as the "cause" of our consciousness. as i have said, spirit and flesh are not separate. yet while the body experiences time and space, the spirit is transtemporal, existing in an infinite moment. living in the flesh, and subjected to the illusion of timespace, we find great difficulty in making sense of transtemporal concepts. the best that i can do, for now, is to say that the physical body is a manifestation of spirit, and therefore everything that occurs to and within the body and its context has a spiritual reality, as well as a physical reality. when your body dies, this is a spiritual as well as physical event. your body may indeed release dmt at this moment to enable your physical perception of the transtemporal reality of this event. this is indeed speculative. however, this speculative release of dmt is not the cause of the event itself. endogenous dmt is part of the physical manifestation of events that have their primary source in spirit. incidentally, substances like dmt can enable your perception of transtemporal reality, but they are not teachers. all that you may have gained by their use is the discovery that there is a teaching. of course, i don't mean to diminish the importance of this discovery. but it is up to you to answer to the challenge. |
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Shit....that must have been scarey!! |
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ketamine can produce vivid out of body experiences. it is known as an animal tranquilizer, but has been used widely as an anesthetic in humans, particularly in populations most susceptible to side effects from standard anesthesia, eg children and the elderly, people with weakened systems. when used on humans it is given with a second drug which suppresses the mind-manifesting effects, clinically referred to as an "emergence reaction." the effects of ketamine are dose dependent plateaus with very different effects. first, there is a feeling of loss of sensation in the body and feelings of detachment, then when eyes are closed two dimensional tesselations/images appear, then they will move and reform, then they will become three dimensional, then four dimensional (a totally immersive alternate reality), then transtemporal reality and lack of identification with the body, then there is loss of conscious awareness. i have greatly simplified this for space considerations. you may be connected to two realities at once, staggering around and talking to people no one else can see, etc. otherwise, ketamine has no harmful side effects. it can make one extremely suggestible, and has been used as an agent of assault and rape. |
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each death is as unique as each life. you cannot know how it will be. you've heard many people assert that your existence will continue beyond your death, most perhaps not credible. you who reads this now, i tell you in no uncertain terms, it is true. of course, there is no reason to believe me, and i have no credibility whatsoever. nevertheless, it is true. |
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well, i never suggested that dmt causes the experience. i've gone into great depth my opinion on duality. and, i don't know if it's coincidence, but i specifically described the body as the manifestation of the current state the spirit, so you don't have to convince me of anything. however, i think that the majority of folks here don't jive with the idea that our conscious experience is anything other than a bi-product of a soulless physical machine-like universe... sadly. |
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a ketamine-induced hallucination, judging from plaidzebra's description, seems like quite a terrifying experience, although i reckon any sensation to which we are not particularly accustomed may initially seem frightening. i'm curious as to how conductive to the experience being either a positive or a negative one is the person's mindset prior to having taken the drug? i have not had any personal experience with hallucinogenic agents, because i am rather weary as to the potential long-term effects on the psyche such substances may have, particularly what with being a depressive. apart from distorting visual perception and altering the sense of time & space, what impact can ketamine have on one's psychological state? |
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what interests me most is not whether or not we continue to survive in one form or another upon death, but rather what form do we continue to exist in? does a conscious element survive beyond the physical self, seeing as mind & body are an inseparable entity, or is it merely in the form of matter which gradually decomposes to eventually be reconfigured into more complex physical structures? does anyone care to share their opinions on this topic? |
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my opinion, manticore, is that the answer is beyond rationalization, it will simply become apparent when it is experienced. something i do know is that, like plaidzebra said, no two death experiences are alike, just as no two lives are alike. how i have come to know this beyond doubt is hard to say, so take my opinion however you like. i also no that experience before death and experience after death are not in anyway separate, not as if there is a slate that is cleaned. rather, you take your life decisions and experience with you. so i just choose to live. i don't really feel a desire to know what life beyond death will be like. if i remove myself from the now and fixate on the future then i fail to prepare myself for the future because my future depends on my living, herenow. |
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jupitah: it's more a matter of pure curiosity. yes, life experiences is life lived, but part of the experience of living is the quest for knowledge. while we may never fully realize what the truth is, nevertheless it is the pursuit of it which is an integral part of being human. if i were to not pose questions on matters which are beyond my understanding, my life (or anyone's for that matter) would be one entirely devoid of purpose. it is our destiny to question the nature of our existence. life can in essence be narrowed down to a single point - and that is an attempt at discovering the origin of how we came to be, in a universal sense. to question is to know and to know is to question. |
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jupitah, i was referring to the comments of weatheredstoner on dmt, echoed by wilcoooo on ketamine. manticore, how terrifying ketamine is depends on how easily spooked the individual is. jupitah is correct, you should plan for tomorrow, but not obsessively dwell on it. i do say, you should plan. |
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i didn't mean to sound as if you shouldn't be asking the question. i'm actually reflecting on my personal experience... i did obsess for a while. now my curiosities are in a different place. |
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some of the possible consequences of accepting the belief that your consciousness is strictly the product of endogenous electrochemical reactions include: believing that one is not responsible for the reactions, and that one is at the mercy of the reactions and the emotional experience that emerges from them. believing that your experience is strictly the product of an electrochemical machine (your brain) makes you extraordinarily vulnerable: "my brain makes me feel sad," "my brain made me uncontrollably angry and violent." now, i say this with immense sensitivity and empathy for your experiences with depression, manticore. we are all of us here, in some way, struggling with similar issues. i hope you will take me seriously, though, when i say that you absolutely can improve the quality of your life and diminish the experience of depression. but i would not ask you to simply abandon your beliefs without your own investigation. there is no place for guilt, here. indeed, i'm well aware of the importance of a healthy brain and a positive experience. and i don't mean to say that, for example, a schizophrenic is simply deluded about the nature of his or her consciousness. i simply urge people to not embrace beliefs in which they are the passive victims of their lives. again, to be clear, i don't mean to say that you see yourself this way, manticore. however, when you are glad, brings me great gladness. it is our destiny to discover who we are. |
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what you discover in an interaction with a psychedelic substance can be very upsetting, indeed. of course the experience is completely dependent on the individual's mindset, although one might start out positive, and veer suddenly negative, or vice versa. expect the unexpected is realistic advice. the goal shouldn't be to shatter oneself into a million pieces and then cobble together a new self. but with courage one might illuminate patches of darkness that one had denied, and then creatively respond with sincerity and intent. an experienced and empathetic guide is recommended. a depressed person will not necessarily have a depressive experience, but a habitually negative personality will find, perhaps, much darkness. of course, the experience is not for everyone. if you intuit that you are better off without it, you're probably correct. |
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thank you for the kind words. no worries. after three consecutive episodes of major depression over the course of the past three years, i am well on my way to recovery (i now have both the appropriate coping skills and the appropriate medication to maintain my balance). if anything, my experience of depression has ultimately been a constructive one in that it allowed me for a greater appreciation of life once i have managed to emerge out of it. life is to be embraced for both the pain and the pleasure that it can bring. obstacles and difficulties which one encounters thoughout the course of one's existence are there to be conquered. it only takes looking beyond the spectrum of one's own predicaments to realize that life is worth holding on to. as far as my interests in the topic of near-death experiences, i've been fascinated with it ever since late in my childhood when i encountered a book on the subject. thanks for your concerns. i'm perfectly well. |
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anything paranormal kicks ass! |
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in my experience, mostly with magic mushrooms, unpleasant, "bad trips" have been the result of my unwillingness to face the issues of my that surface, from my subconscious mind to complete awareness (psychedelic = mind-manifesting). not that i don't enjoy my trips, but i never go into them with thoughts of escaping life for a little while. on the contrary, i go into with the expectation that anything i need to confront and heal will probably make itself very explicit. to react with fear can be traumatizing, to react with a desire to heal oneself can be incredibly empowering and point your life in a direction that you need most. that is what divination is. the curtains come down and if you are willing to face what is presented to you, the most appropriate way to conduct life can be revealed. it takes a lot though. most people are content on tripping balls and denying the unpleasant feelings that come with the approach of frivolty. |
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I almost drowned liek 3 times when I was real young. Kept jumping/falling in pools before I could swim.... I could have suffered brain damage, probably huhuhuh Also due to a phonecall, my mate and I avoided meeting with these gang type dudes who were apparently going to knife us. And a mate of mine threatened to smash a bottle over my head when he was drunk and on valiums.... I almost had a heart attack when I ate like 12 or 14 dexxies and smoked a whole lot of ice.... (most recent - I was shitting myself) |
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Has anyone mentioned whats known as the holographic principle? And how that relates to the theory that consciousness resides in the quantum level activity in structures of microtubules in the brain cell's walls? And how this quantum level activitys' structure can survive independently of the brain itself for short periods hence NDEs? |
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Yep, isn't it DMT release that causes euphoria when you drown? My only real NDE was almost drowning when surf canoeing. Another time I nearly accidently hung myself on a poorly designed climbing frame as a child, but my dad was there and managed to untangle me so I didn't feel I was about to die. If I'd been there alone it would probably of been lights out. |
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My girlfriend and I were discussing dmt the other day. We were trying to determine how or why a species would evolve to manufacture and release a chemical to make death more comfortable. Releasing a chemical to induce feelings of euphoria upon death - where there is no chance of further survival (modern medical techniques aside), does not seem to offer any benefit to the individual organism or the species. The question is - why would the body want to make death peaceful? Why would dmt producing organisms have a distinct survival advantage over non-dmt producing organisms? Endorphins, enkaphalins, dopamine, epinepherine and other neurotransmitters and cytokines serve a purpose in survival - but a pleasurable death does not...it's death. Any takers? |
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In some situations a numbed state helps survival... for example, being shot whilst pumped full of tranquilisers you have a greater chance of survival as your heartrate will be slower so you don't lose so much blood. I imagine DMT release works on the same principle- it allows you surivve that extra bit longer, during which time help may arrive. For example, when drowning if it relaxes you you'd use up less oxygen from thrashing about... |
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