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this is one reason why ive decided to become a nurse. i need to help others, to help myself to keep helping others, and so on. a meaningful way to spend my time :) |
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But surely thought needs to be discarded in order to attain Enlightenment? Enlightenment is freedom from Illusion, a return to the source. There is no moving forwards, because moving forward requires spatiality, and that should be abolished alongside Time (aka Thought). The space-time continuum is only a symbol of the twin towers of Illusion which require transcendence. For, even though Verb > Noun, Verb itself requires annulment for the Wheel to cease turning. Obviously, the ultimate goal of Nothingness isn't exactly a sexy fashionable commodity to market, and hasn't really caught on much. On the other hand, Nothingness is only a word, a woefully inadequate symbol of the Ultimate Oneness, of which I've heard whispered in the hallowed halls of the buddha. |
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a Mental Health nurse? My sister-in-law is studying to become one of them. |
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i can't perceive anything wrong with my psyche. i think i did enough drugs in my youth such that it is pickled against any kind of infectious neurosis or mental hangups. they bounce right off my psyche like it was a leathery swatch of levelheadedness. |
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yes, it's quite hard to sell nothingness. although, in actuality, most people seem to live in a life-long nothingness with, seemingly, no conciousness. sometimes i wonder who is better off. |
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this is only my interpretation, i tend to view emptiness as a process by which we approach the true nature of the mind. all the filters put up by the brain and five senses stand 'in the way' of the mind in other words, realising the illusory nature of our suffering / problematic situations, that is an example of realising the emptiness of something. i felt the need to put ''s around 'in the way' because i feel that the act of discarding something is an aggressive approach. 'i dont want this in my life', 'i dont have room for it', 'i dont like this', 'this is wrong'. dont we need to treat every part of ourselves with the same loving kindness if we want to get everywhere? we can never really push anything away. accept, and then move on. ive taken interest in the idea that we cant have nibbana without samsara. i guess we could even look at these concepts as being relative. |
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im going for a 3-year degree which will place me as a registered nurse, from there i can take it wherever seems fit. |
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i get extremely dizzy and experience loss of hearing at times. its scary. is that a psychological disorder |
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no, that's you blood sugar levels most likely. |
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I'm just saying that a diagnosis isn't an excuse. If you're diagnosed as a kleptomaniac, that doesn't excuse your actions. |
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No idea really. At least not for the moment, since I've been taking my medication only for 2 weeks or so. |
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I disagree. I'm one of those who think the mind IS the senses. An unborn fetus will not have any of the facilities if it has no senses, thus as an adult senseless it will not be anyone. I do not think suffering is illusory either, I think it is as real as it can get. In fact what we experience physically is the only real thing. |
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Thought, as anything else in your life, is as worthless as you let yourself let it be. In other words, it can be awesomely meaningful, and I'd even say it's the only thing that is inherently meaningful (that doesn't mean you can't turn a blind eye to the meaning of it, but that is self-deception). I don't believe the universe has been created by anything at all, neither me nor you nor any god up above. What I do believe about the universe, however, is that any propositional knowledge about it is only objective in the sense that it does indeed state something about constituted states of affairs; is it even objectively true that one thing is not another or that they are the same? Which is it? That in no way entails that we live in an illusion, it just means that we live in our world, the world as it is today and to us. This doesn't degrade the quality of knowledge we have about the world, it just means that it isn't what some are inclined to believe it to be: true statements about the true objective states of things in themselves; even the hard sciences study constituted objects. Objects are still constituted through experience, but they are also invariably not detachable from this experience. In the same way, as you say, duality is constituted, but it still isn't merely some sort of illusion, it is the actual content of your experiences and I wouldn't even dream of degrading duality (the usage of the term is a bit vague, so I'm taking it in the broadest sense here), as the highest form of human action is the choice which isn't possible if all is one. If all was one, there would be no freedom. All is one in one sense, and that is the sense that cannot be meaningful for us, the in itself sense. |
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I'll use avatar man's terminology here.. consciousness is nothingness, we are those by whom nothingness is "brought into the heart of the world." There is no such thing as nothingness in the world, there is no destruction, only we can destruct. In the world itself there is only relocation of mass. In the same way nothing only occurs in our destroyed expectations: "there was nothing there." In the same way freedom, the choice I just mentioned, is nothing: "nothing is stopping me," only nothing can stop you, only yourself. Don't read it wrong, it doesn't mean you can fly, it means you can choose. Those people you are talking about are probably those who don't exist as themselves, but as "the man" or whatever. |
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Relocation of mass. But if the mind and the values we apply to it are physical, what does that say about the physical universe? When mass itself (us) can apply value to itself and surrounding mass? |
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That sometimes the system is more than the sum of the parts. |
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But is it? How would you define "more" and can something be "more" in any kind of system? Or is it just our lack of knowledge that applies the value of more because we do not have the answers? Or are you hinting to metaphysical properties? |
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The physical processes in the brain may be underlying (not determining; external input, the perception of a trauma (which also is only constituted as something more than what you're actually seeing) can actually alter brain structure), but you can't deny the dimension of experiences. Also the mind isn't only some internal thing: consciousness relates to both itself and the world outside. Just like you can't tell what a computer program is without giving it input, and a computer program is also more than what's going on in the processor (but I will stress that this is only a convenient metaphor, and not an analogy; the computer analogy with the mind is flawed). |
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The quality of the phenomenal consciousness is imo the biggest mystery known to man, and maybe in the universe. There's this inherent assumption in my head that everything is mechanical and deterministic, including the mind, but the experiences itself cannot be meaningfully transmitted without someone who is aware of "what it feels like." What this means I don't know, but fascinating none the less. I'm not sure one should dig too deep though. |
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I don't get how anyone who has actually lived for more than a second can get the idea that they are determined to do only what they do.. it goes against all experience you have with everything you do, every choice you make... |
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I do it because I think none of my choices are made by anything other than the processing in my brain. I'm aware of my choices but I do not control them. I cannot that I know of make a choice that is outside of the scope of my options. |
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Of course you can't choose outside of your options (you have as many options as you and your actuality will let you have), but you can still choose between them! |
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Yeah but do you think the mind is not deterministic? Let's take the simplest form of choice, an apple and a banana on a table, which do you eat? There's a myriad of ways to go about thinking about why you will choose one over the other, or choose neither, but the common thing between every choice is that they are all done by your brain and the way it processes your memories and cross references it to new stimuli (visual, auditory, smell the whole gammut). I do think I am aware of my choices but ultimately that I do not have any control over them. I do not think one can become so aware of something that one stops to use the brain to make a decision. |
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No, the choice isn't done by your brain. It is done by you and even though you are the brain, you aren't reducible to it. |
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but then you are involving magical elements, if im the brain what's there to reduce anyway? |
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Nothing magical, just you. Reducing of experiences, choices and everything in the mind to processes in the brain. That just doesn't work, you'll lose too much. |
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but do you have a firm definition of what constitues an experience? (subjective conscious one i mean) and if not, how can you assume that it can't be reduced? |
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An experience is an intentional relationship with the world that also contains values. A study of the brain and description of its physical processes tells you nothing of the experience without you referring to the experience; the experience only makes sense when as experienced, a description of it is a description of the experience, not of chemicals and electricity. The only way for a description of chemicals and electricity to make sense as being about the experience is if you connect the words used to the experience as we use everyday words to refer to the experience. In other words the reduction would always be only skin-deep: take the next step into it and you'll see nothing was reduced and everything is only understood as experienced. |
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But do you know what an experience is? Seems like there's no definition for it. It's quite possible that one day we can corrolate different physical events in the brain to different thoughts and emotions, and then one day in the far future, have a complete map of every emotion and thought and response. The brain experiencing itself will be the only one capable of experiencing itself at that time, but that's only because nobody else has that brain. That doesn't mean you can't reduce to all physical things imo. It doesn't make sense to me that with a complete understanding of the brain we still wouldn't be able to read thoughts and emotions, seeing as both stem from the brain. |
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An experience is many things, as I said, mainly a relation. Read some Husserl. Reading thoughts and emotions has nothing to do with it, but even that seems to be an impossibility: the brain doesn't have one place for one type of experience, one object (that would be impossible unless the brain was infinitely large, as every thing has as many possible ways of being experienced as there are people to experience it). The thing is that description of the brain and its processes, no matter how complex, doesn't equate to a description of the mind, a description of everything that is for consciousness, of experiences unless you just take the language used as signifying that which you take as such today. That being said, no expression can adequately explain or cover consciousness in its entirety. |
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Ohh. The problem is that the universe has to be founded on something, right? There has to be some kind of rule to how it works. In a deterministic universe, technically you would be wrong. If we one day figured out the most basic function of the universe, we would be able to figure out the language needed to describe consciousness, and indeed the rest of the universe. The mind is very deterministic; you hear a sound, you respond, you see something, you respond. It's all very technical, I even experience it myself. I don't see why you're so assured that no expression can explain or cover consciousness in its entirety? There is only one language that can explain the universe, but it exists. (imo) |
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No, the universe doesn't have to be founded on something. In that case it'd be the cosmos. And if figuring out the function leads to the language, it's an impossibility: we require our language to figure out the function and the function is within our language. Have you ever tried expressing something that isn't possible to express in a language in that language? Ever been at a loss for words? What's it like being in love? The mind isn't deterministic. For it to be deterministic, there'd have to be necessity in it, and that's exactly what it isn't; you can hold your hand in the fire, but you choose not to because it hurts. That's not determinism. You can also choose to keep it there in spite of the pain. That's not determinism. You can't describe consciousness because you can't find it.. it simply isn't anywhere, and that is because it is nothing, it is nothingness. It is a relation, but you can't see relations. It is a relation that relates to itself and in that to the world. |
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What I meant by language is basically gods language. Hypothetically speaking god would need to have a set of symbols in his language that describes /everything/ within the universe. That's where the old saying "you can never fully understand a system from within the system" comes in. Also I'm curious to hear what you would call determinism if it isn't putting your hand in a fire and taking it out because it hurts. Determinism isn't broken once choices arise. A choice is part of the deterministic event, and ultimately there is no choice. Finally your last parapgrah, a relation must still be explained, what is the relation? Relations also seem deterministic, which again falls back on physicality. |
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Btw, on topic for a bit: I'm a schizophrenic.. I have so many times thought that there was a huge conspiracy against me. Like for instance I keep thinking my mom knows what I'm thinking and that she's saying certain words and sentences, and emitting certain things just to piss me off. It's incredibly hard for me to not believe that she is, because it seems entirely convincing. Also many times I will have delusions or whatever about people on say irc, I'll think that they are all one person, or that they are all chatting about me in their own chan that I'm not in. Many times I have a hard time thinking that everything is just th way everything appears to be. But usually it's about other people. |
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by "only we can destruct", are you sure you didn't you mean only we can be destructed? at least personally i don't think the coherent sum which is "i" (namely the things, the words, my glance, my "death" (making any scientific "discourse" possible in the first place->consciousness), language) will be in any way reorganized beyond death, since i also believe "i" goes beyond the physicality of the brain. and yes, why should there be any suspicion towards reality being "only" an illusion. a game which everyone is playing the wrong way is just unthinkable (with god being "someone" (if one would insist)). |
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God's language? Are we "reading the book of nature" here? There is no language in nature, there is only language to us. And hypothetically speaking god would transcend every experience, so you couldn't speak of him. Determinism refers to the idea that everything that happens is pre-determined, that every state of the universe is invariably and exclusively the result of all preceding states and that it couldn't possibly have been any different. This also goes for future states. It makes choice impossible since it says the choice you have a feeling of making isn't a choice, but a necessary consequence. It thus makes responsibility impossible since responsibility requires choice to have been made. When you take your hand out of the fire it may well be because it hurts, but that pain isn't a determining factor: you may as well leave it there in spite of the pain. The pain is a reason for taking it out, but it doesn't determine your action. A relation is a relation. You know what the word means. The relation in this case is the intentional relation between your consciousness and those objects that are for your consciousness, including this consciousness itself, which it is a constant consciousness of. This is also why you can't peg it down.. your consciousness will always be about something more, and when you look at it, you're looking at it looking at itself (etc ad infinitum, which means you can't reach the first consciousness by looking at it; it will always elude you/itself). Also there isn't anything necessarily deterministic about relations. Is there determinacy if A is in a relation to B that consists merely in A being on top of B? If A is about B, what is the determined outcome? Being about isn't even a causal relation, nor is being to, taken in the sense of an object being what it is to us. |
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Are you diagnosed with schizophrenia, or do you just believe so? That feeling of insecurity isn't enough to qualify, I believe, so there must be more. Is it really intense, does it debilitate you? |
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No, I meant only we can destruct. Destruction is when nothing remains in the place of something. Nothing doesn't exist in the natural world. When you blow something up, you can't say that this something being blown up is a destruction of the object in itself, as the object in itself doesn't make sense: in itself it could just as well be one thing as the other, and the destruction of it would to any sort of in-itself-seeing creature amount to nothing more than mass and energy being transferred from one form to another. To us, however, there are things and expectations. When I blow up a balloon, I destroy the balloon, but only to me, to us, because it then isn't a balloon any more. Of course this entails that we can be destroyed, but only in the sense that we are aware of the possibility of being no more; you couldn't experience your own destruction (then you wouldn't be destroyed, would you?). |
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Schizophrenia is a severe mental disorder characterized by two kinds of symptoms; positive psychotic symptoms - thought disorder, hallucinations, delusions, and paranoia - and negative symptoms impairment in emotional range, energy, and enjoyment of activities. For a formal diagnosis, these symptoms must persist for at least one month and usually result in severe impairment in job and/or social functioning. Description of Schizophrenia Schizophrenia is a particular form of psychosis, a term encompassing several severe mental disorders that result in the loss of contact with reality along with major personality derangements. The illness can be described as a collection of particular symptoms that usually fall into four basic categories: formal thought disorder, perception disorder, feeling/emotional disturbance, and behavior disorders. |
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Distorted Perceptions of Reality People with schizophrenia may have perceptions of reality that are strikingly different from the reality seen and shared by others around them. Living in a world distorted by hallucinations and delusions, individuals with schizophrenia may feel frightened, anxious, and confused. In part because of the unusual realities they experience, people with schizophrenia may behave very differently at various times. Sometimes they may seem distant, detached, or preoccupied and may even sit as rigidly as a stone, not moving for hours or uttering a sound. Other times they may move about constantly - always occupied, appearing wide-awake, vigilant, and alert. Normal Versus Abnormal At times, normal individuals may feel, think, or act in ways that resemble schizophrenia. Normal people may sometimes be unable to "think straight." They may become extremely anxious, for example, when speaking in front of groups and may feel confused, be unable to pull their thoughts together, and forget what they had intended to say. This is not schizophrenia. At the same time, people with schizophrenia do not always act abnormally. Indeed, some people with the illness can appear completely normal and be perfectly responsible, even while they experience hallucinations or delusions. An individual's behavior may change over time, becoming bizarre if medication is stopped and returning closer to normal when receiving appropriate treatment. |
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Schizophrenia Symptoms Usually with schizophrenia, the person's inner world and behavior change notably. Behavior changes might include the following: Social withdrawal Depersonalization (intense anxiety and a feeling of being unreal) Loss of appetite Loss of hygiene Delusions Hallucinations (eg, hearing things not actually present) The sense of being controlled by outside forces A person with schizophrenia may not have any outward appearance of being ill. In other cases, the illness may be more apparent, causing bizarre behaviors. For example, a person with schizophrenia may wear aluminum foil in the belief that it will stop one's thoughts from being broadcasted and protect against malicious waves entering the brain. People with schizophrenia vary widely in their behavior as they struggle with an illness beyond their control. In active stages, those affected may ramble in illogical sentences or react with uncontrolled anger or violence to a perceived threat. People with schizophrenia may also experience relatively passive phases of the illness in which they seem to lack personality, movement, and emotion (also called a flat affect). People with schizophrenia may alternate in these extremes. Their behavior may or may not be predictable. |
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where is my mind? Schizophrenia Topic Overview What is schizophrenia? Schizophrenia is a severe brain disease that interferes with normal brain and mental functionit can trigger hallucinations, delusions, paranoia, and significant lack of motivation. Without treatment, schizophrenia affects the ability to think clearly, manage emotions, and interact appropriately with other people. It is often disabling and can profoundly affect all areas of your life (for example, becoming unable to work or go to school). Being told that you or someone you love has schizophrenia can be frightening or even devastating. The best way to improve your quality of life with schizophrenia is to learn as much as you can about this condition and then adhere to the recommended treatment. There are several types of schizophrenia, and the specific types are diagnosed based upon symptoms. The most common type is paranoid schizophrenia, which causes fearful thoughts and hearing threatening voices. Schizophrenia does not involve multiple personalities and is not the same condition as dissociative identity disorder (also called multiple personality disorder or split personality). |
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This should give you some relief: No one gives a fuck about you, at all. There, feel better? |
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eludes |
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ive been told by a few friends that i at least have a touch of bipolar, but it hasnt been detrimental to my functionality enough to warrant pursuing a diagnosis/treatment. i'd love to join in all the buddhist vs. existential vs. pragmatic dualism discussion going on here, but i'm far too hung over and should probably keep my mind on empiricism (begnning with locke) which i have class for in an hour. |
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oh, and as for a description, it feels like there is a three way switch in my head, and even the slightest breeze can flip it from depression to emptiness to ecstasy. most of my time is spent in the middle, where i just don't feel anything at all, its just complete and utter neutrality, lack of passion, which is frightening in itself (yes, i realize thats a sort of contradiction) considering passion is what makes life life, be it making you happy or sad. its better to care about things and have them send you into fits than to not care at all. |
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i think i just described tripolar... whoops. :P woo third post in a row! |
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and every one of them in a different mood: first, depressed second, in the middle third, ecstatic did you plan that? |
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Feeling/Emotional Disturbance. People with schizophrenia may exhibit flat or restricted affect. This means that they do not respond emotionally to events which would ordinarily elicit some feeling. For example, they do not display feelings of sadness, happiness, or humor, even though they may be able to understand that these things are supposed to be sad, happy, or funny. Their facial expressions and vocal intonations remain the same regardless of what happens around them. Schizophrenia usually has its onset in late adolescence to the mid-20s in men... |
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Emotional Expression People with schizophrenia often show "blunted" or "flat" affect. This refers to a severe reduction in emotional expressiveness. A person with schizophrenia may not show the signs of normal emotion, perhaps may speak in a monotonous voice, have diminished facial expressions, and appear extremely apathetic. |
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